Who is best in mountain warfare? India or China?

Ray

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May I request that we stick to the issue and stop being personal and use foul language.

I will be constrained to close the thread and issue Infractions.
 

Iamanidiot

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China, if it come to a war with India, will also have many borders to neutralise.

Russia is not too happy with China taking its place or attempting to be a global power.

The US is in no way pro China, notwithstanding what one may feel. I believe they have entered the Vietnam oil exploration fray with their own attempt for oil exploration off Vietnam.

China has hegemonic aspirations and so it requires AB troops of the size that they have.
But sir If the internal system got rot.The CCP may go for a war to defect the peoples attention.The main aim of the CCP is to remain in power by hook or crook .More than Hegemony the Chinese are in a quite horrible geographical position.None of its neighbours are no push overs.The CCP thinks a lot political
 

Iamanidiot

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Brigadier.The 15th ABC is the only organization which is directly under the purview of the Central Military Organization in China.Why is it based in the Chengdu Military region in the first place?It would have been better if it was there in a taiwan scenario.Something is not right with 15th ABC
 

Adux

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China, if it come to a war with India, will also have many borders to neutralise.

Russia is not too happy with China taking its place or attempting to be a global power.

The US is in no way pro China, notwithstanding what one may feel. I believe they have entered the Vietnam oil exploration fray with their own attempt for oil exploration off Vietnam.

China has hegemonic aspirations and so it requires AB troops of the size that they have.
I think we will be lying to ourselves when we say, we dont have hegemonic intentions, We have done enough and more in the neighborhood to prove that. So you agree that their airborne troops are for rapid mobilization either for their own territory or as in a expeditionary role, as for any country with long logistics and hostile neighbors with serious military skills, it is quite imperative for them to have that capability, I am only asking for the same for India. For some here, the terrain seems the answer to all the capability of enemy, Ofcourse it helped us before when coupled with our military capability, we were competent enough to surpass them, while our infrastructure and capability have remained quite stagnent, theirs have grown, where our current capability and terrain together will not be enough to stop them. I expect to see the 15th Airborne to be around the Chicken neck.




Brigadier,

If you are going to edit post, I suggest you do to the moronic person, I replied to. Lets make it fair, shall we.
 

Phenom

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IMO, while we may see small scale tactical airborne assaults, its unlikely we'll see a division level airborne operation. Biggest problem for the Chinese would be If they landed an airborne division, then they would need to link up with them soon, surely the Chinese would not want to end up in a 'Market-Garden' like situation, where the initial airborne operation is a success but it gets stuck behind any line without supply and reinforcements. And if they can't do that then it would mean they have just given India a few thousand PoWs.
 

Adux

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Brigadier.The 15th ABC is the only organization which is directly under the purview of the Central Military Organization in China.Why is it based in the Chengdu Military region in the first place?It would have been better if it was there in a taiwan scenario.Something is not right with 15th ABC
Exactly, I believe they are going to be the blitz of skies , advance towards the chicken area, Question arises of their re-enforcements as well as air cover?

The Military Region includes two Group Armies (the 13th and 14th), the Tibetan 52nd and 53d Mountain Brigades, the 149th Motorised Infantry Division at Emei, Sichuan (near Mount Emei), 2 Mobile Armed Police Divisions (38th and 41st), and the 2nd Army Aviation Regiment at Chengdu.
The International Institute for Strategic Studies attributes the region with some 180,000 personnel, with four motorised infantry divisions, one artillery division, two armoured brigades, one artillery brigade, and two anti-aircraft brigades.
The military districts that fall within the Chengdu Military Region are:
Sichuan Provincial Military District
Tibet Military District
Guizhou Provincial Military District
Due to limited airlift capabilities, only one of the Corps' three divisions can deploy to any part of China within 48 hours.Reports claim that a 10,000 man airborne division was transported to Tibet in less than 48 hours in 1988..

The Objective of the 15th Corps

According to You Ji's "The Armed forces of China", the 15th Airborne Corps has been elevated to the status of a strategic force. It is a departure from the PLA traditional airborne force concept. Doctrinal modernization change allows the 15th Airborne Corps to acts as a principal force employed for independent campaign missions in future wars. It is now accepted that the airborne troops should be used for pre-emptive attack on the enemy's key military targets in the rear area in order to paralyze or disrupt its preparation for an offensive. This kind of large-scale mission cannot be conducted without having a total control in the air. Also, a single-lift capability of 50,000 men is required for this type of missions. Currently, the PLAAF can only lift one division of 11,000 men with light tanks and self-propelled artillery.
 

Iamanidiot

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IMO, while we may see small scale tactical airborne assaults, its unlikely we'll see a division level airborne operation. Biggest problem for the Chinese would be If they landed an airborne division, then they would need to link up with them soon, surely the Chinese would not want to end up in a 'Market-Garden' like situation, where the initial airborne operation is a success but it gets stuck behind any line without supply and reinforcements. And if they can't do that then it would mean they have just given India a few thousand PoWs.
WZC exactly envision something else the 15th airborne will hold the enmy in the meantime the main force arrives...**and they have substantially improved their infra on their side for this scenario
 

Adux

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WZC exactly envision something else the 15th airborne will hold the enmy in the meantime the main force arrives...**and they have substantially improved their infra on their side for this scenario
Thank You, Thank You very much.
 

Ray

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WZC exactly envision something else the 15th airborne will hold the enmy in the meantime the main force arrives...**and they have substantially improved their infra on their side for this scenario
Link please.

Hold where?

Main Force link where?

What does that mean?

Dropped in area beyond where the Main Force is.

Apply it to the Sino Indian scenario!

so, where are they to be dropped?
 

Iamanidiot

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Exactly, I believe they are going to be the blitz of skies , advance towards the chicken area, Question arises of their re-enforcements as well as air cover?






The Objective of the 15th Corps
They won't go for the Chicken neck they will go for Gilgit-Baltistan and may be something like Siachen.Remember what the Colonel told us about what the PLA intended to do in 1987 a front through Gilgit Baltistan without giving two hoots about what the puke bastards think
 

Iamanidiot

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Link please.
Sir this is what I understood from the discussion btw u and the Colonel in WAB and also we are hearing about the development of infra on their side.I got the above observation through inference
 

Adux

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IMO, while we may see small scale tactical airborne assaults, its unlikely we'll see a division level airborne operation. Biggest problem for the Chinese would be If they landed an airborne division, then they would need to link up with them soon, surely the Chinese would not want to end up in a 'Market-Garden' like situation, where the initial airborne operation is a success but it gets stuck behind any line without supply and reinforcements. And if they can't do that then it would mean they have just given India a few thousand PoWs.
Exactly,

We will have to start speaking about what is wrong or what is currently deficient in their plans. While our boy are cut off or about to be cut off. They will have enough soldiers on their borders to advance on to our positions on the border. With the atrocious level of infrastructure, how are we going to re-enforce them? We will need to have a air bridge and extremely capable airborne asset.

I was extremely interested to see the number of C-17's and their delivery schedules in the context of the phasing out of IL-76's. We will for sure have 33 Strategic airlifters in 2015, and IL's wont retire before 2020-2025. Which would imply, that we will buy more strategic airlifters in 2017-2025 period to replace the retiring IL's.

We just atleast for the time beings, offset our ground infrastructure problems, which takes time and other issues to come up, with Strategic air lifters.
 

Iamanidiot

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Link please.

Hold where?

Main Force link where?

What does that mean?

Dropped in area beyond where the Main Force is.

Apply it to the Sino Indian scenario!

so, where are they to be dropped?
Sir wasn't the colonel speaking about Tactical or Strategic suprise.The idea of WZC is also to choose the Point of Engagement according to their choosing.Wasn't 1962 all about getting off guard.We expected the Chinese not to attack as Zhou-En lai visited India just then.As a matter of fact this got us lulled the most.The WZC may be is not simply a military operation .It may also include politcal gestures to typically chinese
 

Adux

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They won't go for the Chicken neck they will go for Gilgit-Baltistan and may be something like Siachen.Remember what the Colonel told us about what the PLA intended to do in 1987 a front through Gilgit Baltistan without giving two hoots about what the puke bastards think
Isnt this when, the chinese give up their idea of fighting India to the last pakistani. Yup, I remember that. With all this stupid gibberish going on, I forgot to analyze how Pakistan will behave.
 

Ray

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Exactly, I believe they are going to be the blitz of skies , advance towards the chicken area, Question arises of their re-enforcements as well as air cover?
OK.

They are dropped.

And then how do they link up?

Air supply?

What would be the air situation?


The Objective of the 15th Corps
Indeed in the rear and not elsewhere.

Link up?

fine pre emptive, but without link up, what is their staying power?

Some Light tanks and SP arty.

Adequate?
 

Ray

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Sir wasn't the colonel speaking about Tactical or Strategic suprise.The idea of WZC is also to choose the Point of Engagement according to their choosing.Wasn't 1962 all about getting off guard.We expected the Chinese not to attack as Zhou-En lai visited India just then.
I don't take OoE to be an expert.

at that time it was the SB (Special Branch) having LPs at the borders.

No troops or paramilitary.

The came the 'throw them out' which resulted in sending ill equipped troops who had no idea of HAA warfare or guerilla warfare that the Chinese employed!
 
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Iamanidiot

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@Brigadier rather than the WZC please think how the Chinese can apply WZC in Kashmir
 

Adux

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Brigadier,

There is a reason why we throw ideas and questions at you, so you can give us your answers, thoughts and assessment, throwing questions back at us will not help much, since we were never in the business.
 

Iamanidiot

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I don't take OoE to be an expert.

at that time it was the SB (Special Branch) having LPs at the borders.

No troops or paramilitary.
Sir,who ever he gave us a very valid explanation.Zhou En lai's India trip lulled us to neglect our border.The trip is also a part of the war execution plans
 
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Ray

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They won't go for the Chicken neck they will go for Gilgit-Baltistan and may be something like Siachen.Remember what the Colonel told us about what the PLA intended to do in 1987 a front through Gilgit Baltistan without giving two hoots about what the puke bastards think
You must see the terrain beyond the Atlas and Google Maps to realise the issue.

If it were such a cake walk, then the issue of Kashmir would have been decided long ago this way or that way!

Neither the Indian nor the Pakistan Army composed of chicken hearted individuals and the Chinese some superheroes!

Pakistan tried many a time, but came a cropper all the times!

Are they suggesting that the Pakistanis are some sort of weak kneed freaks?

Yes, Nehru was a dreamer and so we deserved what we got!

But now.........................?
 
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