Iamanidiot
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Who is best in mountain warfare? India or China?
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I have seen the ground and deployment in all the sectors mentioned.
I am a realist and not prone to fantasies.
Theoretical 'Generals' do not awe me!
For instance the sidekick of Colonel OoE, that hybrid Chinese (I forget his name; he has South American blood as he claims!) who is but an undercover 50 cents.
Have they seen the terrain?
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Iamanidiot
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Sir you have been there seen it.We are requesting u to think through the POV of a PLA general.We have an idea they are doing excercise regardin WZC and we also know that 15thABD is in Chengdu M-R.That means its coming at us.But How? is it coming at us.That we have to figure out and there you are of help
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PLA doctrine is basically based on intel available in late 90s or early 20s abt Indian Army ,But Again their are many things changed since 2009 very recently, IA have better surveillance over high altitudes thanks to the upgrading of Airfields with long range Radars in Assam, Army AD`s role over Arunachal and other places recently, ITBP and BSF have increased surveillance and patrols, Their are more eyes on the ground now, Their are Medium range SAMs over Assam and Multi-role Jets like MKI for Air-defense and MIG-27 for CAS..
All these new development assure better Air-defense, Incursion of such size can be detected long before, Even if they manage to land, And organize, The land mass enable us to coordinate and attack preciously as we are mush better organized and expected such threads....
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Adux
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You still havent been clear Brigadier? Let's forget theoretical generals, please explain your point of view. I also would like you to heed my request on post 168 http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-army/26563-best-mountain-warfare-india-china-17.html#post339319
Poseidon
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India's snow warriors.
Toronto, ON, Canada, — The Kumaon Regiment, India's specially equipped and trained snow warriors, scaled the lofty heights of Siachen Glacier at about 20,000 feet above sea level and occupied it on April 13, 1984. At minus 40 degrees Centigrade the task was next to impossible, but they accomplished it and made history.
Pakistan's Special Service Group Commandos were undertaking the same task, but were late by a few days and lost the battle to the snow warriors.
It was August of 1986 when the Chinese quietly occupied the ridges overlooking the Sumdorong Chu area at the Line of Actual Control bordering India and China. In response, India airlifted a full brigade of snow-trained troops to Zimithang just north of Tawang town in the northeastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh.
This eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation lasted a few years and then diplomacy took over. If India did not have snow-trained troops at the ready, the Chinese would have been at Tawang once again.
India also has troops specialized in jungle warfare and counter-insurgency operations. The Pakistani occupation of Kargil in Kashmir in February 1999 in the middle of winter was a big mistake. Their temporary success was quickly turned into defeat by India's high-altitude and snow-warfare trained troops.
The Indian Army since 1962 has become proficient in mountain, snow and jungle warfare. Eight mountain divisions with an average strength of 15,000 men were created immediately after 1962. They defend India's northern border including positions along the Line of Control with Pakistan in Kashmir.
The force is supplemented with four additional mountain divisions. All twelve new divisions have the capability to negotiate and confront the enemy at high altitudes. Of this force, two divisions are trained as strike forces, similar to those the Chinese used in 1962 to cross into India and surround areas of Tawang, Sela and Bomdila.
India trains its snow troops by positioning them at high altitudes, which help them to acclimatize to the rarefied atmosphere and build their stamina. Training is provided in highly specialized schools. Pre-eminent among them is the High Altitude Commando Training School at Tawang, located at 15,000 feet above sea level and ideal for the purpose. It also gives troops and officers an idea of the conditions on the Indo-China border.
Another eminent training ground for snow warriors is the High Altitude Warfare School near Sonamarg in Kashmir. Russia and the United States are aware of this school and their troops have received training there before being dispatched to fight high-altitude warfare in the Caucasus and Afghanistan.
Much of the Siachen Glacier occupation scheme by the Indian Army was perfected at the school. Besides, a host of the Indian Army's operations to counter infiltration across the Line of Control at high altitudes are perfected here before taking to the field.
The Counter-Insurgency and Jungle Warfare School at Vairengte in the Indian state of Mizoram is another prestigious school that has trained close to 150,000 Indian soldiers and 5,000 foreign soldiers from 26 different countries. The school's motto is "fight a guerilla like a guerilla."
At Siachen, where guns freeze at minus 40 degrees Celsius, humans suffer much more from exposure. Five-layered clothing is routine for soldiers. It is sometimes insufficient, but the best available.
In Ladakh, regular patrols mounted in sub-zero temperatures let the Chinese know that the Indian troops are watching their every move. They also wear five-layered clothing and carry special weapons.
The best means to transport troops, supplies and reinforcements during troubled times to remote locations is by helicopter, and India has a large fleet. To avoid falling behind in technology and replacing old and aging machines, India is procuring 22 very modern attack helicopters and 15 transport helicopters for heavy lift. This is in addition to purchases of 200 light-combat helicopters.
Troops located at high altitudes are dependent upon helicopters for supplies and personnel. A number of secure helipads have been built in most locations that act as forward supply transshipment points. Some 100 more are planned for areas next to defensive positions in border regions.
Roads are harder to build around peaks and valleys, which are in abundance on the Indian side of the Himalayas. So forward positioning of supplies is done either via helicopters or by mule trains.
Small firearms make the difference between life and death at high altitude and in jungle warfare. So at times they are lugged from one location to other via helicopter or mule trains.
The Indian-built INSAS rifle had major breakdowns at subzero temperatures in Siachen, as it was not built to withstand those temperatures. The rifle performs well elsewhere and is used by the army in the plains. Soldiers on high-altitude duty are equipped with imported rifles that function better at those temperatures.
Ultra-light 155-mm artillery, which can be lifted by a helicopter, can make the difference in battle. Its mere presence at a location discourages the enemy. India's procurement of 145 units from the United States on a very rapid government-to-government basis will change the battle dynamics in the mountains. These and other procurements provide the snow warriors with additional confidence.
This artillery is supplemented with the ultra-accurate Pinaka multi-barrel rocket system. This can be mobilized on trucks and moved to forward areas. Once released, it can devastate the enemy before it attacks.
The land version of India's Brahmos missile, which can destroy command and control bunkers behind enemy lines, is also poised for deployment in the mountainous and high-altitude regions.
The most critical aspect of war in mountains and snow-clad peaks is the availability of troops close to the action. Mountain warfare sucks troops in never-ending numbers, which explains why India has 12 mountain divisions in readiness.
The Chinese have plenty of experience in mountain and jungle warfare too. The communists came to power in China after fighting 30 years as insurgents. Besides, dealing with Korea, Russia and India has given them additional experience.
China can put 20,000 soldiers anywhere at short notice on the India-Tibet border. They have a good road network and a variety of helicopters. Their snow-capable hardware is as good as the Indians'. The point is, when two equally capable armies meet, they size each other up and then they relent. China understands this point very well. If they cannot win a battle they will not fight. It happened with India at Sumdorong Chu, and they relented.
The Pakistanis are different; they are culturally suicidal. They knew well that the Kargil conflict could turn against them, but they still tried. Even today, they know that picking a fight with India is suicidal but they will keep on trying. Only recently have they adopted a defensive mood, as one of their key allies for asymmetrical warfare in the Northwest Frontier Province has turned against them.
India's snow warfare capability has made astounding improvements. It was a major weakness earlier but has been permanently redressed now.
Peace is better preserved with strength; and it is this strength that is letting India concentrate on economic development more vigorously.
India's snow warriors - upiasia.com
Toronto, ON, Canada, — The Kumaon Regiment, India's specially equipped and trained snow warriors, scaled the lofty heights of Siachen Glacier at about 20,000 feet above sea level and occupied it on April 13, 1984. At minus 40 degrees Centigrade the task was next to impossible, but they accomplished it and made history.
Pakistan's Special Service Group Commandos were undertaking the same task, but were late by a few days and lost the battle to the snow warriors.
It was August of 1986 when the Chinese quietly occupied the ridges overlooking the Sumdorong Chu area at the Line of Actual Control bordering India and China. In response, India airlifted a full brigade of snow-trained troops to Zimithang just north of Tawang town in the northeastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh.
This eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation lasted a few years and then diplomacy took over. If India did not have snow-trained troops at the ready, the Chinese would have been at Tawang once again.
India also has troops specialized in jungle warfare and counter-insurgency operations. The Pakistani occupation of Kargil in Kashmir in February 1999 in the middle of winter was a big mistake. Their temporary success was quickly turned into defeat by India's high-altitude and snow-warfare trained troops.
The Indian Army since 1962 has become proficient in mountain, snow and jungle warfare. Eight mountain divisions with an average strength of 15,000 men were created immediately after 1962. They defend India's northern border including positions along the Line of Control with Pakistan in Kashmir.
The force is supplemented with four additional mountain divisions. All twelve new divisions have the capability to negotiate and confront the enemy at high altitudes. Of this force, two divisions are trained as strike forces, similar to those the Chinese used in 1962 to cross into India and surround areas of Tawang, Sela and Bomdila.
India trains its snow troops by positioning them at high altitudes, which help them to acclimatize to the rarefied atmosphere and build their stamina. Training is provided in highly specialized schools. Pre-eminent among them is the High Altitude Commando Training School at Tawang, located at 15,000 feet above sea level and ideal for the purpose. It also gives troops and officers an idea of the conditions on the Indo-China border.
Another eminent training ground for snow warriors is the High Altitude Warfare School near Sonamarg in Kashmir. Russia and the United States are aware of this school and their troops have received training there before being dispatched to fight high-altitude warfare in the Caucasus and Afghanistan.
Much of the Siachen Glacier occupation scheme by the Indian Army was perfected at the school. Besides, a host of the Indian Army's operations to counter infiltration across the Line of Control at high altitudes are perfected here before taking to the field.
The Counter-Insurgency and Jungle Warfare School at Vairengte in the Indian state of Mizoram is another prestigious school that has trained close to 150,000 Indian soldiers and 5,000 foreign soldiers from 26 different countries. The school's motto is "fight a guerilla like a guerilla."
At Siachen, where guns freeze at minus 40 degrees Celsius, humans suffer much more from exposure. Five-layered clothing is routine for soldiers. It is sometimes insufficient, but the best available.
In Ladakh, regular patrols mounted in sub-zero temperatures let the Chinese know that the Indian troops are watching their every move. They also wear five-layered clothing and carry special weapons.
The best means to transport troops, supplies and reinforcements during troubled times to remote locations is by helicopter, and India has a large fleet. To avoid falling behind in technology and replacing old and aging machines, India is procuring 22 very modern attack helicopters and 15 transport helicopters for heavy lift. This is in addition to purchases of 200 light-combat helicopters.
Troops located at high altitudes are dependent upon helicopters for supplies and personnel. A number of secure helipads have been built in most locations that act as forward supply transshipment points. Some 100 more are planned for areas next to defensive positions in border regions.
Roads are harder to build around peaks and valleys, which are in abundance on the Indian side of the Himalayas. So forward positioning of supplies is done either via helicopters or by mule trains.
Small firearms make the difference between life and death at high altitude and in jungle warfare. So at times they are lugged from one location to other via helicopter or mule trains.
The Indian-built INSAS rifle had major breakdowns at subzero temperatures in Siachen, as it was not built to withstand those temperatures. The rifle performs well elsewhere and is used by the army in the plains. Soldiers on high-altitude duty are equipped with imported rifles that function better at those temperatures.
Ultra-light 155-mm artillery, which can be lifted by a helicopter, can make the difference in battle. Its mere presence at a location discourages the enemy. India's procurement of 145 units from the United States on a very rapid government-to-government basis will change the battle dynamics in the mountains. These and other procurements provide the snow warriors with additional confidence.
This artillery is supplemented with the ultra-accurate Pinaka multi-barrel rocket system. This can be mobilized on trucks and moved to forward areas. Once released, it can devastate the enemy before it attacks.
The land version of India's Brahmos missile, which can destroy command and control bunkers behind enemy lines, is also poised for deployment in the mountainous and high-altitude regions.
The most critical aspect of war in mountains and snow-clad peaks is the availability of troops close to the action. Mountain warfare sucks troops in never-ending numbers, which explains why India has 12 mountain divisions in readiness.
The Chinese have plenty of experience in mountain and jungle warfare too. The communists came to power in China after fighting 30 years as insurgents. Besides, dealing with Korea, Russia and India has given them additional experience.
China can put 20,000 soldiers anywhere at short notice on the India-Tibet border. They have a good road network and a variety of helicopters. Their snow-capable hardware is as good as the Indians'. The point is, when two equally capable armies meet, they size each other up and then they relent. China understands this point very well. If they cannot win a battle they will not fight. It happened with India at Sumdorong Chu, and they relented.
The Pakistanis are different; they are culturally suicidal. They knew well that the Kargil conflict could turn against them, but they still tried. Even today, they know that picking a fight with India is suicidal but they will keep on trying. Only recently have they adopted a defensive mood, as one of their key allies for asymmetrical warfare in the Northwest Frontier Province has turned against them.
India's snow warfare capability has made astounding improvements. It was a major weakness earlier but has been permanently redressed now.
Peace is better preserved with strength; and it is this strength that is letting India concentrate on economic development more vigorously.
India's snow warriors - upiasia.com
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Military patrol, Shows how PLA does on other side..
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One of the Best In Mountain warfare along with Gurkha and Nagas.
The inhabitants of the Kumaon hills are commonly known as the Kumaonese. They belong to a predominantly patriarchal society, which recognizes the superiority of men over women. The word Kumaon is believed to have been derived from "Kurmanchal," meaning land of the Kurmavatar (the tortoise incarnation of Lord Vishnu, Preserver of the Hindu Trinity). The region extends from the northern end of the Gangetic plains right up to Tibet. Kumaon is a maze of mountains, some of which are among the loftiest known. There are over thirty peaks rising to elevations exceeding 18,000 feet The rivers rise chiefly in the southern slope of the Tibetan watershed north of the loftiest peaks, among which they make their way down valleys'of rapid declivity and extraordinary depth.
Kumaon proper constituted an old Rajput principality, which became extinct at the beginning of the 19th century. In 1803 the Gurkhas invaded Kumaon and Garhwal, driving the Garhwal chief into the plains. For twelve years the Gurkhas ruled the country with a rod of iron, until a series of encroachments by them on British territory led to the war with Nepal in 1814. At the termination of the campaign, Garhwal and Kumaon were converted into British districts. The country was annexed after the Gurkha war of 1815. In 1891 the division was composed of the three districts of Kumaon, Garhwal and the Tarai; but the two districts of Kumaon and the Tarai were subsequently redistributed and renamed afte their headquarters, Naini Tal and Almora.
1. Battle of Walong
2. Battle of Rezang La
3. Battle of Kumaon Hill
4. Operation Meghdoot
5. Opeartion Vijay
The inhabitants of the Kumaon hills are commonly known as the Kumaonese. They belong to a predominantly patriarchal society, which recognizes the superiority of men over women. The word Kumaon is believed to have been derived from "Kurmanchal," meaning land of the Kurmavatar (the tortoise incarnation of Lord Vishnu, Preserver of the Hindu Trinity). The region extends from the northern end of the Gangetic plains right up to Tibet. Kumaon is a maze of mountains, some of which are among the loftiest known. There are over thirty peaks rising to elevations exceeding 18,000 feet The rivers rise chiefly in the southern slope of the Tibetan watershed north of the loftiest peaks, among which they make their way down valleys'of rapid declivity and extraordinary depth.
Kumaon proper constituted an old Rajput principality, which became extinct at the beginning of the 19th century. In 1803 the Gurkhas invaded Kumaon and Garhwal, driving the Garhwal chief into the plains. For twelve years the Gurkhas ruled the country with a rod of iron, until a series of encroachments by them on British territory led to the war with Nepal in 1814. At the termination of the campaign, Garhwal and Kumaon were converted into British districts. The country was annexed after the Gurkha war of 1815. In 1891 the division was composed of the three districts of Kumaon, Garhwal and the Tarai; but the two districts of Kumaon and the Tarai were subsequently redistributed and renamed afte their headquarters, Naini Tal and Almora.
1. Battle of Walong
2. Battle of Rezang La
3. Battle of Kumaon Hill
4. Operation Meghdoot
5. Opeartion Vijay
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Adux
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Well, Thats all folks, It has been proved that Chinese are complete ninocoomps and not worth our attention, and most definitly we are aware, and the Chinese arent since they dont have internet, satallites, spies, radars and most they dont have gray matter to figure out, that the time line right now is 1990's and that is the indian army they are facing. They dont even hknow the ' I " of intelligence. We can sit at home comfortably since 6000 Super Para's along with rest of our army in the north east, who as well all know will have unhindered logistical supply through 8 lane highway, 8 Super Fast trains, So the Chinese capacity to raise nearly 1 lac troops in 72 hours doesnt matter at all. We are set.
Poseidon
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It's not like that.We should't underestimate them nor overestimate them.
Iamanidiot
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Nowadays we are seeing a lot of LAC violations by the Chinese and the brigadiers words make me wary
Iamanidiot
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First of all iam not able to understand where we stand in a confrontation on those peaks.Our infra is pathetically pathetic.How will the IA fare inthe rcenario
Adux
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There is no over-estimating them and they have the capability, we dont. They have logistics, they can re- enforce without their airborne troops on their current positions, our logistics are so glaringly weak, there is a good chance we will be cut off. Our Options to re-enforce through the air, unfortunately we dont have enough para qualified troops, though we will have the planes by 2015.
Poseidon
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The Chinese seems to be practicing for a conflict:
Google Earth Reveals Chinese Military Secret � Land of Lights – Local English Newspaper – Fethiye
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Phenom
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Why do we need an airbridge and airborne assets to counter the Chinese airborne?
Leaving the terrain out, this is how the forces would be located after an airborne landing
=======================Chinese Frontline===============================
=======================Indian Frontline=================================
=======================Chinese Airborne===============================
=======================Indian Reinforcements===========================
Assuming the airborne has managed to cut off the Indian frontline completely, we would have both the Chinese airborne and the Indian frontline surrounded by enemies and both would be fighting desperate battle. Its only a matter of time before either the Indian frontline or the Chinese airborne give up and surrender. To counter this situation India needs to just stock up supplies near the frontline and fortify them, so that they could hold out for a longer time than the Chinese airborne. We have already heard that the India border areas have been heavily fortified, so I don't think we need to worry so much about an airborne attack.
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Hari Sud is known to write fanciful stuff. I only hope he is is right here.
