Who is best in mountain warfare? India or China?

[Adux]

The PLA can enlift upto 12,000 troops with light tanks & artillery as of today.I don't think 12,000 soldiers can be a game changer.

That is in 24 hours. While the trains and trucks also come through, so does already stationed troops, in 72 hours, they can amass atleast 1 lac troops

 

[DMF]

I can see, the Indian friends here take China as the enemy No.1, dreaming that China would foolish enough the fight a border war again, hehe, feel so sorry for the 1962 which left a such deep wound to India, even today not heal.
You like to talk about the terrene, the infrastructure, the airlift ability, so I can see you really not understand China, there will be no war in the foreseeable future between India and China. Nobody wants to have war on both our sides. In case of confrontation, China pays the most attention the electro-magnetic waves, the C4I is the core of modern warfare, that's eye and ear, you can see China has developed the ability to destroy satellites by rocket and laser, but this is prepared for the USA，China need another 10 to 15 years to finish the industrialization process, the only worry is that the USA may disturb us.
Indian friends here not happy with China for what happen long time ago, because you consider China belong to the low caste, your ass got kicked by a low caste, very frustrated, but India fool around by the UK master for a long time, still very happy, because the Great Briton belongs to the high caste, haha.
I believe in the next 15years, you will find out that China indeed is a great civilization, the wound of 1962 will heal, you will not like to compare India with China by then, and we can be good friends again.

 

[Dovah]

Indian friends here not happy with China for what happen long time ago, because you consider China belong to the low caste,

Your stupidity hurts physically.

r China belong to the low caste, your ass got kicked by a low caste

If I were you, I'd shoot myself.

but India fool around by the UK master for a long time, still very happy, because the Great Briton belongs to the high caste, haha.

How did the Japanese slavery work out for you? Not well for your brain, apparently.

I believe in the next 15years, you will find out that China indeed is a great civilization, the wound of 1962 will heal, you will not like to compare India with China by then, and we can be good friends again.

You're not really making a case for your country here though.

Anyways, hope you achieve your goal of derailing this thread.
Adios.

 

[Ray]

I can see, the Indian friends here take China as the enemy No.1, dreaming that China would foolish enough the fight a border war again, hehe, feel so sorry for the 1962 which left a such deep wound to India, even today not heal.
You like to talk about the terrene, the infrastructure, the airlift ability, so I can see you really not understand China, there will be no war in the foreseeable future between India and China. Nobody wants to have war on both our sides. In case of confrontation, China pays the most attention the electro-magnetic waves, the C4I is the core of modern warfare, that's eye and ear, you can see China has developed the ability to destroy satellites by rocket and laser, but this is prepared for the USA，China need another 10 to 15 years to finish the industrialization process, the only worry is that the USA may disturb us.
Indian friends here not happy with China for what happen long time ago, because you consider China belong to the low caste, your ass got kicked by a low caste, very frustrated, but India fool around by the UK master for a long time, still very happy, because the Great Briton belongs to the high caste, haha.
I believe in the next 15years, you will find out that China indeed is a great civilization, the wound of 1962 will heal, you will not like to compare India with China by then, and we can be good friends again.

The deep wound of 1962 was over when the Chinese got a bloody nose at Nathu La, Cho La and Sumdorong Chu. The Chinese, licking their wounds, were given the signal that their hegemonic pursuit was over.

Your misplaced gloat reminds me that of Lou Reed who said – How can anybody learn anything from an artwork when the piece of art only reflects the vanity of the artist and not reality?

China may be overwhelmed with gizmos of warfare, but it must be remembered they are but only gizmos or what they call Force Multipliers! The Force is the proof of the pudding.

Caste seems to obsess you and so your examples are of caste. Caste has lost its glitter in India and is hardly worth the issue.

On all this homilies of peace and friendship you splutter, the advise is - can it. We have gone through the Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai phase to realise that China continues to remain the Janus it was before and it hardly qualifies to be in the league of the trusted people.

Yes, the Chinese civilisation was great. Note the word 'was'.

The Cultural Revolution destroyed more than half of its symbols and icons and signalled that under the Communist satraps, China has become a mob and is no longer a civilisation that commanded respect!

 

[p2prada]

The PLA can enlift upto 12,000 troops with light tanks & artillery as of today.I don't think 12,000 soldiers can be a game changer.

Please people, are we still talking about the 15th Airborne. Brig Ray already ended the discussion many many pages ago. Operation Market Garden says it all.

The PLA won't use the 15th like the way it needs to be used.

 

[Adux]

Please people, are we still talking about the 15th Airborne. Brig Ray already ended the discussion many many pages ago. Operation Market Garden says it all.

The PLA won't use the 15th like the way it needs to be used.

I would like to know the explanation of that? They cant link up with their forces coming through Nepal? You think Nepal is going to stop a Chinese Group Army? They will step aside. If Chicken Neck isnt such a problem, why are we crying hoarse about its apparent vulnerabilities


Are we trying to say here, that having a Airborne doesnt help in faster troop mobilization, how much of having a Airborne Corps would have helped in OP.Parakaram, in uping the ante. We were threatening Pakistan of war, when troops were hundreds of kilometers from the border. Pakistan must be laughing their asses out. Quick Deployment is a mantra of Airborne

 

[Poseidon]

That is in 24 hours. While the trains and trucks also come through, so does already stationed troops, in 72 hours, they can amass atleast 1 lac troops

The Chinese rail network ends in Lhasa & also remember in 1962 we targeted a Chinese convoy coming through a road between a mountain pass with mortars & thereby inflicting heavy casualties(generally most roads in that region are like that).We can target the Chinese reinforcements provided we have proper artillery & air support.

 

[pankaj nema]

In Mountainous terrain the Attacker to defender ratio is very high maybe 5: 1

With sufficient artillerry and infantry we can pin down the Chinese

They will neither be able to move forward nor go back

Chinese supply chains are very long and hence very vulnerable .There are so many roads that can be targetted

We already have enough troops on the border We are adding more

By adding more troops, and fire power we can NULLIFY all these so called " Infrastructure advantages "

So it is back to square one

Plus more casualties for the Chinese

 

[Adux]

The Chinese rail network ends in Lhasa & also remember in 1962 we targeted a Chinese convoy coming through a road between a mountain pass with mortars & thereby inflicting heavy casualties(generally most roads in that region are like that).We can target the Chinese reinforcements provided we have proper artillery & air support.

Do you know what the Chinese - Indian Force strength was in 1962? (80,000 facing 10,000)And why we were able to defeat them in 2 conflicts there after? Capability of bringing in men faster and in more numbers before them, we have lost that advantage with the advent of Trains, 15th Corps, upragation of Chinese road networks, advent of new Chinese airfields close to our border. Their over-all strength relative to us in North East area has grown exponentially. That is the problem. The C-17's, IL-76's and ALG's can assuage that to some extent.

 

[mahesh]

Arunachal is a fortress. If PLA was to assault Arunachal, whichever regiment they send would be suicidal for them.

is it!! more info on this please

 

[pankaj nema]

All Chinese infrastructure ie Air fields , Roads , Railway are vulnerable to Air strikes and Missile strikes

if China can SEND 5 LAKH men to the border as is being claimed then it ALSO needs
FOOD WATER FUEL and Ammunition

Chinese supplies come from far away mainland China . Tibet produces nothing
And Southern China from wher supplies can come can also be targetted

The Chinese airborne divisions can LAND men on Indian Side . But what about TAKING them BACK

The Chinese troops can be ambushed and killed

We know where will they attack .

Chicken neck Siliguri Corridor and Tawang and the intersection between Bhutan India and China

Any way most of our reserves are situated in depth like Tezpur ,Sukhna etc

And also some new new divisional HQs coming up for the new divisions being raised

 

[pmaitra]

Tibet is a flat land. Many highways are nothing but routes across the desert. Most (I should say all) trucks there have GPS navigation and are well suited for cross country runs. In case there is war, PRC will simply employ all the civilian trucks, which are as good as military cross country trucks and mobilise troops. No need to have roads. They have bad terrain, but they also have the means to overcome that.

Just a reality check.

 

[sandeepdg]

Could you find details beyond the mathematics template where the 'bells and whistles' are taken into consideration of what a Division actually entails\ beyond mere manpower!

That will help understand what it takes to mobilise.

That was a good find that you posted, more realistic than the kiteflying so far.

Thanks for the compliment.

Ray sir, I know that a division is not just about men and their basic gear. There's a huge load of hardware accompanying it. What I was quoting is only based on the above report which is only talking about the quantity of troops that the PLA can move using its trains per day whenever the need arises.

 

[Ray]

Thanks for the compliment.

Ray sir, I know that a division is not just about men and their basic gear. There's a huge load of hardware accompanying it. What I was quoting is only based on the above report which is only talking about the quantity of troops that the PLA can move using its trains per day whenever the need arises.

I know you were quoting from the article, but since you found it, I thought you could hunt around for the other info,

The figures are quite close and that is why I was keen since I could not find anything in the open source.

 

[Ray]

Tibet is a flat land. Many highways are nothing but routes across the desert. Most (I should say all) trucks there have GPS navigation and are well suited for cross country runs. In case there is war, PRC will simply employ all the civilian trucks, which are as good as military cross country trucks and mobilise troops. No need to have roads. They have bad terrain, but they also have the means to overcome that.

Just a reality check.

That is true, especially the ones to the West from Lhasa linking Xinjiang and Khotan and so on.

One of the biggest problem of these highway is that they are landslide, mudslide, avalanche prone and also the wear and tear because of weather is rather high.

 

[Adux]

Why are most posters assuming chinese wont have artillery and airpower, while we will. They have more chances of bringing in heavy equipment than us, regarding the rarified air, nothing longer runways wont fix, as well as long range refueled flights cant do.

 

[Adux]

The fact is, they can move significantly more men and machines, which would overwhelm our current strength. And our ability to reinforce and resupply is where we are suspect. That is what we should be talking about, not how 'awesome' the Para's are.

Can anyone post current Chinese Orbat for our border? I believe Ravi Rhikye had a account of it

 

[Ray]

Why are most posters assuming chinese wont have artillery and airpower, while we will. They have more chances of bringing in heavy equipment than us, regarding the rarified air, nothing longer runways wont fix, as well as long range refueled flights cant do.

The staff check will indicate the same.

Not being a pilot I would not know, but there is thing called all up weight. Do you think a longer runway will ensure that the 'lift' quotient is feasible?

The fact is, they can move significantly more men and machines, which would overwhelm our current strength. And our ability to reinforce and resupply is where we are suspect. That is what we should be talking about, not how 'awesome' the Para's are.

Can anyone post current Chinese Orbat for our border? I believe Ravi Rhikye had a account of it

In HAA, it requires 12:1 to have any chance of success.

 

[sandeepdg]

I know you were quoting from the article, but since you found it, I thought you could hunt around for the other info,

The figures are quite close and that is why I was keen since I could not find anything in the open source.

Ray sir, I am already digging more relevant information regarding this topic.

 

[sandeepdg]

Is India's Transport Infrastructure Prepared for the Eastern Front ?

China's rapid build-up of infrastructure along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) is compelling Indian policymakers to rethink border issues and in particular focus on increasing military capability by strengthening infrastructure in the border areas. But, infrastructure development remains uneven in the northern and eastern sectors. While the creation of military infrastructure including transportation has picked up in the northern sector, there is a considerable lag of infrastructure development in the eastern sector. This has undermined India's military capability to thwart external aggression in the eastern front.

China has connected all the passes and military posts on the LAC with highways, logistic depots and military installations - a clear sign that the People's Liberation Army (PLA) is gearing up for military contingencies. The major highways on the Chinese side have been upgraded to double lane; they are also all-weather roads and thus operational throughout the year. With a total road network of 58,000 kms as of 2010 in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR), the Chinese are in the process of extending the Qinghai Tibet Railway up to Xigaze. Further, another railway line from Kashgar to Hotan in the Xinjinag Uighur Autonomous Region (XUAR) is under construction as also five airfields in Tibet at Gongar, Linchi, Pangta, Hoping and Gar Gunsa.

In response, India has increased its military deployments in the eastern sector. The Indian air force has deployed four squadrons of frontline Su-30 MKI fighters in Tezpur and Chabua. The Indian army has raised two new mountain divisions with HQs in Zakama (56 Division) in Nagaland and Missamari (71 Division) in Assam, and is also considering the deployment of Ultra Light Howitzers and light tanks. Several new and old airfields have been activated and new roads are being constructed to enable the quicker movement of troops and equipment.2 But these initiatives pale in comparison to the military forces that China can mobilise along the LAC. With its five fully operational airbases and extensive rail and road network, China can mobilise more than 30 divisions (each with over 15,000 soldiers) along the LAC and outnumber the Indian forces by 3:1

Road Map of Northeast India

Source: DoNER, Government of India, NER Databank
In contrast, India's transportation infrastructure in the Northeast is inadequate, and what exists is outdated. Motorable roads do not exist beyond the state capitals and some townships. As part of the 10th Five Year Plan (2002-2007), the central government had sanctioned Rs 1690.26 crore for building 36 roads of a total length of 1905.60 km.4 But, even today, these roads remain in various stages of construction throughout the region. Moreover, the Northeast is a high rainfall zone, receiving an average of 2000 millimetres a year. As a result, landslides are common, thus requiring repair and maintenance of roads annually. However, repair and upgradation of roads in the region are seldom done, which means they lie broken and potholed.

Air connectivity in the Northeast is also much below the national average. Only Guwahati and Agartala airports have night landing facilities. In the ninth Five Year Plan (1997-2001),5 provision was made for six airports in Arunachal Pradesh, namely Itanagar, Pashighat, Zero, Tezu, Along, Daporizo, as well as for another at Rupsi in Assam. They were to be capable of receiving Airbus and heavy cargo aircraft. But because of uneven terrain and lack of space to build long runways, these airports have still not become functional.

The railways, being economical and capable of transporting large loads, could potentially integrate far flung areas, cut down the cost of goods in the border towns and promote development. But, the Northeast Frontier Railway that passes through Dimapur (Nagaland) and terminates at Dibrugarh (Assam) is the only rail link between the Northeast and the rest of India. Till recently, the rail network (mainly broad gauge) was limited to Assam though it has now been extended to Agartala (Tripura). Its further extension to the rest of the Northeast region remains uncertain.

As for bridges, during the 5th and 6th plan periods (1974-1979 and 1980-1985), most bridges constructed were made of timber. Later, in the ninth Five Year Plan, the central government initiated the conversion of existing timber bridges into reinforced concrete (RCC) bridges. Since 2001-2002, the conversion of 40 such bridges has been completed, while another 77 bridges are in the process of being thus converted.6 However, most of the RCC bridges constructed so far have already been worn out by heavy rain and also because inferior quality construction material was used. Consequently, most remote border areas remain connected only by timber, bamboo and cane bridges, except for the few on the national highways.

Despite the recent acceleration of efforts to build up infrastructure along the LAC including 5,500 permanent defences and bunkers, much more remains to be done. The rear areas and the forward positions are yet to be connected through proper motorable transportation networks. As a result, the military infrastructure development projects costing Rs. 9,243 crore, as approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security for the Eastern Army Command, are unlikely to be able to help India counter China's build up. It is imperative that the transport connectivity in the region be strengthened by the establishment of railway networks in the hinterland, by the timely construction of roads that extend to the borders, and by expediting the construction of bridges.

Is India's Transport Infrastructure Prepared for the Eastern Front? | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses