Who is best in mountain warfare? India or China?

[Param]

I really don't think the 15th will get through with all their numbers. China will not be able to establish air superiority. May be they will start with cruise missile strikes to take our our air bases. But then they can't take out all and we will return the favor.

The thread is going great. Lot more stuff will keep coming up. End result I think will be that the Chinese will not be able to steam roll.

Yeah, atleast in this thread.

 

[sandeepdg]

Ground Permafrost I think effects the Tibetian highways and even railways they are higly maintenance heavy in both the summer and winter months

Railways are vulnerable. Roads aren't, they are all weather highways. Its there in the above reports.

 

[Yusuf]

Yeah, atleast in this thread.

Say what you want. I think that will be the conclusion.

 

[Ray]

Railways are vulnerable. Roads aren't, they are all weather highways. Its there in the above reports.

Both are vulnerable

permafrost (geology) :: Origin and stability of permafrost -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia,

 

[sandeepdg]

Both are vulnerable

permafrost (geology) :: Origin and stability of permafrost -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia,

"HIGHWAYS AND RAILROADS
Highways in polar areas are relatively few and mainly unpaved. They are subject to subsidence by thawing of permafrost in summer, frost heaving in winter, and loss of bearing strength on fine-grained sediments in summer. Constant grading of gravel roads permits maintenance of a relatively smooth highway. Where the road is paved over ice-rich permafrost, the roadway becomes rough and is much more costly to maintain than are unpaved roads. Many of the paved roads in polar areas have required resurfacing two or three times in a 10-year period.
Railroads particularly have serious construction problems and require costly upkeep in permafrost areas because of the necessity of maintaining a relatively low gradient and the subsequent location of the roadbed in ice-rich lowlands that are underlain with perennially frozen ground. The Trans-Siberian Railroad, the Alaska Railroad, and some Canadian railroads in the north are locally underlain by permafrost with considerable ground ice. As the large masses of ice melt each summer, constant maintenance is required to level these tracks. In winter, extensive maintenance is also required to combat frost heaving when local displacements of 2.5 to 35 centimetres occur in roadbeds and bridges."

Sir, there are problems with roads too, but they much lesser than those with railroads as is written in your report.

 

[hit&run]

And Chinese will air drop a division without establishing Air superiority?

Ladies ! first talk about air superiority then Para drooping.

 

[pmaitra]

"HIGHWAYS AND RAILROADS
Highways in polar areas are relatively few and mainly unpaved. They are subject to subsidence by thawing of permafrost in summer, frost heaving in winter, and loss of bearing strength on fine-grained sediments in summer. Constant grading of gravel roads permits maintenance of a relatively smooth highway. Where the road is paved over ice-rich permafrost, the roadway becomes rough and is much more costly to maintain than are unpaved roads. Many of the paved roads in polar areas have required resurfacing two or three times in a 10-year period.
Railroads particularly have serious construction problems and require costly upkeep in permafrost areas because of the necessity of maintaining a relatively low gradient and the subsequent location of the roadbed in ice-rich lowlands that are underlain with perennially frozen ground. The Trans-Siberian Railroad, the Alaska Railroad, and some Canadian railroads in the north are locally underlain by permafrost with considerable ground ice. As the large masses of ice melt each summer, constant maintenance is required to level these tracks. In winter, extensive maintenance is also required to combat frost heaving when local displacements of 2.5 to 35 centimetres occur in roadbeds and bridges."

Sir, there are problems with roads too, but they much lesser than those with railroads as is written in your report.

Good post.

If I may add, when the USSR was building the Baikal Amur Magistral (BAM), they dug up the layer of vegetation on the permafrost and laid the ballast and tracks. Come summer, the exposed permafrost melted and caused the track-bed and track to sink. Later, they came up with a new idea. They let the vegetation cover on the permafrost be and simply laid ballast on it and laid the tracks. Problem solved.

I am mentioning this just to remind everyone to avoid underestimating what PRC can do.

 

[Yusuf]

Taking one thing at a time, construct how a Chinese assault using would happen. Right from trying to establish air superiority over India to get the ABC in and also how if the Tibetans rise and revolt, how will the supplies and reinforcements come through. India will also use it's assets like MKIs to target supplies behind enemy lines. With standoff capability using brahmos as well as other missiles/cruise missiles like Shourya and Nirbhay, the airfields, train lines everything is also under indian range to attack.

I don't think a war if at all can last a month considering the damage India can inflict on the Chinese.

 

[Adux]

Yusuf the tibetians in tibet might mostly stay neutral and lhasa has significant percentage of han population so they aiding us will not haqen

We only require them to do sabotage. Just hurt the Chinese.

 

[Adux]

Sandeep,


Good Work.

Adu

 

[Adux]

Airborne troops are used for shock. After the initial shock you need to be backed up by superior forces from your side or get out. Or they will get annihilated. Ray sir used the premise that nobody will want to lose such a large force without a reason.

Prada,

I like the way the discussion is going. Its quite educating. I am working therefore havent been able to look through your entire post and think on it. Anyways, a slight nitpick

In the above scenario, you are talking about parachuting the Airborne into battle. That would be mean that a large scale border war has already started. The Chinese would know that war is imminent atleast 3 weeks in advance, as history shows about India, that we would never instigate a war, it would be them. Lets forget chicken neck for a moment. Let's talk about Troop mobilization,surge of troops within the chinese border's to scare India down from a position ( military objective, political objective),

The Chinese would be able to increase significant number in a matter of 72 hours. If you consider the previous engagements we won with them, you would notice, this is exactly how we won. The Airborne with their light weight arty, tanks etc would be in position and would be landed at their ALG's close to the Indian border. Now we cannot do this! We dont have many of the equipments nor the trained soldiers. We dont have a highly air mobile rapid force.. The Chinese do. That gives them a lot of room to maneuver.

How do we rapidly increase troop strength and equipment, if and when we require in the North East.

 

[Iamanidiot]

For Sabotage we can use the SFF

 

[Adux]

For Sabotage we can use the SFF

Yes, but we can expect more help from the entrenched underground rebels. They are already behind enemy lines. That is a big help, and more help the better and merrier

 

[Immanuel]

yup Tibet will fall into our hands very quickly. That is an entire nation being oppresssed by the PLA, everybody hates the Chinese over there. Any action with China will result in quick fall of Tibet. chinese won't be able to sustain it for a long time. PLA lacks exp in mountainwarfare while our young cades freshout of training are already killing Puki pigs every other day.

 

[Ray]

Why should Tibet fall into India's hands?

Tibet should be free.

Chinese, as I said, are no fools. They are merely posturing about South Tibet and all that. Carrying out cosmetic intrusion to indicate that they feel the world is theirs for the picking.

They are well aware that if there is any war with India, the Dalai Lama factor will come into play, not on India's bidding, but because the Tibetans would like to make best use of a ripe situation. The Tibetan revolt will not only be confined to TAR, but to what is known as Greater Tibet. The self immolation of the Tibetan monks in Sichuan and elsewhere is a clear indication that the Chinese have no control over the Tibetans. The calm the Chinese wish to project is a mask!

Once the Chinese are sure that they have the Tibetans totally enslaved, the true face of China will be exposed.

As I have said before and I say it now, the Chinese are no fools. It is time we understand the Han holistically. The great empire they have built, what is called China, is a magnificent exercise of great skill. The real Hans are the one North of the Yellow River. The remainder who claim to be Hans today are 'outer people' who were taken as 'barbarians'. The Hans assimilated them by conquest, intermarriages, humiliation, subjugation, but all in a subtle persuasive way which they called the Chinese way. And interestingly, they did it so well and so subtly that these non Han today proudly claim that they are Hans!!

So, don't underestimate the Han Chinese. They are aggressive in intent while placid on the outside. There is a saying that She Stoops to Conquer. The Hans do so but they better that too! They Lull people before they Conquer and then........ all become Han!

I actually admire their ways.

If one wants to win, learn from the Chinese!

 

[Bangalorean]

Why should Tibet fall into India's hands?

Tibet should be free.

Yes.

Tibet will be free and independent. If the Tibetans so desire, India can provide them a military 'umbrella' after their independence. Only if they desire.

 

[p2prada]

The Chinese would be able to increase significant number in a matter of 72 hours. If you consider the previous engagements we won with them, you would notice, this is exactly how we won. The Airborne with their light weight arty, tanks etc would be in position and would be landed at their ALG's close to the Indian border. Now we cannot do this! We dont have many of the equipments nor the trained soldiers. We dont have a highly air mobile rapid force.. The Chinese do. That gives them a lot of room to maneuver.

How do we rapidly increase troop strength and equipment, if and when we require in the North East.

If the Chinese start building up troops across the border and start acclimatizing them, then we will know they are readying for war. They will take a month to be ready, maybe more. This gives us the time to prepare. China isn't Pakistan. Plenty of our own troops are acclimatized, those who aren't can be acclimatized quickly as compared to the Chinese. Plenty of Pakistani troops are acclimatized as well, one of the reasons for their quick mobilization during Kargil. The best Chinese troops are in the plains as compared to our 12 Mountain Divisions. Their best trained and equipped divisions are facing Taiwan and Korea, not India. They have only recently moved some of their second rung rocket forces towards India. They don't see us as a threat because even they know we hold the defensive positions and that we won't be the ones attacking.

You have already noticed how we beat them in previous engagements. We had superior numbers and superior equipment. As Ray sir already said, HAA requires an awesome amount of manpower. If they have 100000 troops in Tibet, that does not mean they are ready to make war. They need plenty to hold their reserves as well, nobody in China wants a riot in Tibet and if it happens, they need a massive amount of manpower and resources to control it.

Talking about manpower, they need at least a 12:1 ratio in order to take a position away from us. This is again something Ray sir already mentioned. If we have 10000 troops with everything else being equal, they will need 120000 troops. But do we have only 10000 troops? This is a numbers advantage we had in Kargil as well. The ratio can change depending on the equipment like Heavy artillery and air force. Their superior infrastructure notwithstanding they still need to cross the border on foot to get to us and then they need to fight after they have walked and therein lies one of our many advantages.

I am sure their heavy artillery is good, but their air force may or may not be that good considering the lack of contact with the western world. They may have a numbers advantage but the battlespace will not allow that advantage because of the vast amount of air traffic organization that is required. The American carriers can setup a localized air superiority against any adversary in the world, even against 500 fighter air forces simply because the battlespace over the carrier group and beyond cannot fit more that what a carrier already carries.

We took 3 weeks mobilizing 750000 troops to the border under favourable conditions. How long would the Chinese take to mobilize such a force in extreme conditions. There is a limit to what the human body can withstand. Long periods of time in extreme weather conditions during a warlike situation would begin to get on anybody's nerves.

@imanidiot
I will try contributing to this thread as much as I can. I have some major time constraints and am mostly available only on the weekends.

 

[sandeepdg]

Sandeep,


Good Work.

Adu

Thanks, mate.

 

[sandeepdg]

Yusuf, I believe that whatever data that I have posted here, is to show how excellent the infrastructure is for troop mobilization in TAR in case of the PLA.When the Qinghai-Lhasa railway is extended to to Shigatse, it is hardly some 300 kms away from the Nathu La pass in Sikkim. And the Chinese have good roads coming right up to the border both near Sikkim as well as near Arunachal. And those roads are excellent as compared to whatever roads we have in the border areas. In fact as earlier stated by me in the previous posts, our roads just go dead 50-60 kms from the border, and most often our troops have to trek on foot to reach the forward posts.

But, I also believe that as long as we are fighting a defensive battle, we will have an upper hand due to presence experienced mountain troops and the substantial air assets we have in the eastern sector which will play a crucial part in any such eventuality.

 

[ace009]

You have already noticed how we beat them in previous engagements. We had superior numbers and superior equipment. As Ray sir already said, HAA requires an awesome amount of manpower. If they have 100000 troops in Tibet, that does not mean they are ready to make war. They need plenty to hold their reserves as well, nobody in China wants a riot in Tibet and if it happens, they need a massive amount of manpower and resources to control it.

Talking about manpower, they need at least a 12:1 ratio in order to take a position away from us. This is again something Ray sir already mentioned. If we have 10000 troops with everything else being equal, they will need 120000 troops. But do we have only 10000 troops? This is a numbers advantage we had in Kargil as well. The ratio can change depending on the equipment like Heavy artillery and air force. Their superior infrastructure notwithstanding they still need to cross the border on foot to get to us and then they need to fight after they have walked and therein lies one of our many advantages.

I am not sure where you got the 12:1 ratio. Historically, invading armies need to have 3:1 number superiority. However, in modern warfare a 1:1 ratio will also work if you can provide better support to your infantry/ armor - in terms of recon/ surveillence, radar/ satellites, artillery, missiles, air defense and air-attack. The numbers game only count when the two sides are equal in all other respects. That's when occupancy of superior terrain, fortifications, supply etc become very important.
In TOR, there will be no such "support-force equality" - either the IAF will dominate the skies and IA can use a division to counter the PLA or there will be aerial parity/ PLAAF superiority and IA will not go in.
In Arunachal, similarly, either PLAAF will dominate the skies and PLA can invade, or else there will be aerial parity/ IAF superiority and PLA will not come in.

We took 3 weeks mobilizing 750000 troops to the border under favourable conditions. How long would the Chinese take to mobilize such a force in extreme conditions. There is a limit to what the human body can withstand. Long periods of time in extreme weather conditions during a warlike situation would begin to get on anybody's nerves.

Just because it took IA to mobilize 3 weeks does not mean the PLA will take similar time - they have much better rail and roadways all the way to the border of India - unless IAF manages to take them out and keep them damaged, PLA can mobilize much faster. Also remember, they do have a much larger aerial transport fleet (primarily developed for invasion of Taiwan), that can be deployed INSIDE their own country.

Overall, PLA and PLAAF maybe able to run through Arunachal if IA/ IAF is not well prepared, but for IA/IAF to take over TAR, it would require a series of blunders from PRC and a series of brilliant moves from India.