Who is best in mountain warfare? India or China?

[Kunal Biswas]

Lol. I love arm chair generals who take themselves way too seriously,Nope, lets start with increasing the airborne troop strength to the same level that of China, we need them more than they do. Start buying light tanks, M777, equiping the soldiers in the same standards as of the Chinese troops, they get the very best China has to offer, as they like 2nd Artillery, is a strategic asset. Yes, more C-17's,

What is the use of you being there if this is what you spill out, how do you know that I have not been there.

I saw that coming.. , Its not Armed Chair stuff but being part of it.....

Indeed C-17s are good, btw, Chinese troops are not better equipped but bad compare to us, Infantry terms, We need arty of all types but presently we are better in terms of Long range arty, thnx to M46 upgrades..


That is because the way you are speaking out..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Means didly sqwat! China is not some push over. The same attitude got us 1962


Like it or not, We need Airborne Strike Corps.Just like we need our Mountain strike Corps.

Sorry what ? what same attitude, I bet you have no knowledge abt Indian para ops in full scale wars..

It will be as i mentioned before in the same thread, IA is working on that..

 

[Adux]

Adux you drop men depend on type of thread and task, You are not going to capture a city but heights and small towns, Or to block enemy supply-lines over mountain passes, For these you may need few AN-32s, For bigger Ops we have IL-76, which can carry 190-200 men..

Kunal,

We are talking about Airborne troops here, not some Special Force insertion. There is a difference. We are talking about moving thousands of men to face of sudden surge of Chinese 15th Corps, It is imperative for India to airlift more and before the 15th Corps. Their ability to bring in far more troops, which will give them a decisive edge will cripple us. Not to mention the sheer number they can bring through the trains.

Question is why airlift? That answer comes from the answer to the question, when is it best for China to attack us? Read below

In future, India could be subject to China's hegemonic attention. Since India would be better prepared by then, China may instead wish to set India back now by a preventive war. This means current day preparedness is as essential as preparation for the future. A [defeat] now will have as severe political costs, internally and externally, as it had back in 1962; for, as then, India is yet again contemplating a global role.

Read more: War-Gaming: Study Contemplates Conflict Between India and China - Global Spin - TIME.com

One of the main reason for C-17's and C-130J's, DELIVERY TIMES. We are looking at a war before 2020. Our border infrastructure will not come up to the level desired to face threat level from other side. Our geography is not going to change, ever!

You were talking about air superiority in Tibet, Well the Indian Army thinks otherwise
Army confirms Chinese buildup near India border - Videos - India - IBNLive

This coupled with overall chinese hostility and capability build up, not to mention their foray into PoK, It doesnt look good for us. Unless we make big bold move on capability creation. Airborne Corps is much needed, much more than a Marine Division, at this point of time.

 

[Adux]

I saw that coming.. , Its not Armed Chair stuff but being part of it.....

Indeed C-17s are good, btw, Chinese troops are not better equipped but bad compare to us, Infantry terms, We need arty of all types but presently we are better in terms of Long range arty, thnx to M46 upgrades..


That is because the way you are speaking out..

How are you planning to bring up enough Arty when you dont have effing roads!

No, the chinese are better equipped than us and are in 5 times the number, Especially their infantry.

During a number of exercises, the 15th Airborne Corps has demonstrated it can move a regiment plus of paratroopers with light armored vehicles to anywhere within China in less than 24 hours. These exercises also show that a large number of para-gliders are in use.
The 15th Airborne Corps' weapons inventory includes 50-100 ZLC2000 derivatives and 2S9 self-propelled mortars, large numbers of BJ212 jeeps with 105mm recoilless rifles or HJ-8E ATGM, and Type 89 120 mm SP anti-tank guns. The last two weapon platforms are air transportable. Additional weapons include Type 84 82mm mortars, Type 85 60mm light mortars, Type 85 107 mm MRL, and more. In 1997, a new lightweight high-mobility vehicle entered service. Reportedly, up to ten of this new vehicle can be carry by a Y-7H military transport. Paratroopers are outfitted with portable GPS systems, night-vision goggles, radios and other high-tech equipment.

 

[Ray]

i have a doubt bothering me from long time,
if Paratroopers are dropped near the borders at the time of war (tensions ), the aircraft which are used to droping Paratroops should be obviously flying nearby the border then that aircraft is very much vulnerable to enemies SAM or air to air missile and to their range of strike.

so how do the army around the world will tackle this situation while performing this task?

secondly, Is their any chances of the failures of parachute not opening among hundreds of thousands of Paratroopers being dropped ? is malfunction know issue in this fields ?

your opinion please

High Altitude High Opening Operations (HAHO). The HAHO techniques are used for missions which require minimal detection of the aircraft under conditions which restrict the aircraft from penetrating a certain area, such as the border of a country. The jumpers will deploy the parachutes at very high altitudes which allow them to glide a considerable horizontal distance with a low probability of detection. Jumpers are consequently exposed to hypoxia and cold temperatures for extended periods. A HAHO is a high-altitude, high-opening jump used for long-range insertion. During high-altitude, high-opening missions both exit and deployment altitudes are high, and a special parachute lets them maneuver more than 50 kilometres as they quietly float into an area. HAHO allows the jump aircraft to deliver its cargo from a significant standoff range, thereby reducing the odds of enemy detection and increasing the survivability of the aircraft and the parachutists. The higher the parachute-opening altitude and the flatter the glide slope of the parachute, the greater the standoff distance attainable. Paratroopers hop and pop their 'chutes immediately, which is potentially a riskier manoeuvre because jumpers are exposed to altitude and the enemy for a longer period. The opening shock is also traumatic. It gives quite a jolt. Jumpers are sore for a few days after a HAHO.

High Altitude Low Opening (HALO). The HALO techniques are used for missions to prevent detection of the aircraft and the jumpers. Extreme accuracy is required since the parachutes are deployed at a low altitude. HALO involves paratroopers jumping at around 25,000 feet and freefalling down to 3,500 feet. Plummeting at a terminal velocity of 126 mph, parachutists can descend this distance within two minutes. A HALO jump gets the jumper out of sight in a hurry, and they are less vulnerable to dangers. A drawback to this technique is that the jumpers must exit the aircraft over, or close to, enemy territory, thus making the aircraft a potential target for enemy surface-to-air or air-to-air defences.

Even if the main parachute does not open, you can operate the 'baby' parachute. And if that does not open. Then it is curtains!

 

[Adux]

Sorry what ? what same attitude, I bet you have no knowledge abt Indian para ops in full scale wars..

It will be as i mentioned before in the same thread, IA is working on that..

They are quite brave I am sure, but exactly like in 1962, The Chinese will be capable to bring in more troops in the engagement areas than the Indians, doesnt matter how brave Indians are, they will loose. Like India's 10,000 to their 80,000 in 1962. All logistical advantage are on their side, except aerial they have more troops but less heavy lifter, we have more planes but less soldiers.

By 2015, we will have 16 C-17's and 17 IL-76, but where are the troops and equipments, where is their training?

 

[Adux]

Brigadier

HALO and HAHO, isnt that used by mostly specialized forces, while it is the regular parachute drops for the regular airborne or para regiments.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal,

We are talking about Airborne troops here, not some Special Force insertion. There is a difference. We are talking about moving thousands of men to face of sudden surge of Chinese 15th Corps, It is imperative for India to airlift more and before the 15th Corps. Their ability to bring in far more troops, which will give them a decisive edge will cripple us. Not to mention the sheer number they can bring through the trains.

Question is why airlift? That answer comes from the answer to the question, when is it best for China to attack us? Read below

Adux, U are not getting the point, As per situation the men are deployed, It can be small group and large, I also mentioned abt 190-200 men in one drop and with 4 IL-76MD you can drop a battalion size force with all the arty and other stuff, Study Operation FALCON by Indian forces, IA knows what need to be done..

Question is been answered with detail here with pics and specs all, Some equipment are not applicable in quote..

You were talking about air superiority in Tibet, Well the Indian Army thinks otherwise
Army confirms Chinese buildup near India border - Videos - India - IBNLive

This coupled with overall chinese hostility and capability build up, not to mention their foray into PoK, It doesnt look good for us. Unless we make big bold move on capability creation. Airborne Corps is much needed, much more than a Marine Division, at this point of time.

Well what type of Airfield matters too..

Didn't i said we are working on it ?

 

[Ray]

Brigadier

HALO and HAHO, isnt that used by mostly specialized forces, while it is the regular parachute drops for the regular airborne or para regiments.

That is the general impression!

I believe IA has Paras turned to SF, but then they may not be SF?

I will leave it at that.

One has to understand the employment of a strategic force and how it is executed to understand the issue.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

How are you planning to bring up enough Arty when you dont have effing roads!

No, the chinese are better equipped than us and are in 5 times the number, Especially their infantry.

Care to see 1967 incident when we had 5inch Heavy guns at 14000ft..

Only you are over estimating them, If not tell me what they have vs us in the region ?

They are quite brave I am sure, but exactly like in 1962, The Chinese will be capable to bring in more troops in the engagement areas than the Indians, doesnt matter how brave Indians are, they will loose. Like India's 10,000 to their 80,000 in 1962. All logistical advantage are on their side, except aerial they have more troops but less heavy lifter, we have more planes but less soldiers.

By 2015, we will have 16 C-17's and 17 IL-76, but where are the troops and equipments, where is their training?

Dude, I know you are not going to search..

You posted 1967 incident, I suggest go through that again..



Keep a watch on all annual exercise held by Indian Army, PARA are always involve as they are airborne troops from 3rd dimension..

 

[W.G.Ewald]

173rd Airborne Brigade in Iraq

 

[W.G.Ewald]

How are you planning to bring up enough Arty when you dont have effing roads!

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Is their any chances of the failures of parachute not opening among hundreds of thousands of Paratroopers being dropped ? is malfunction know issue in this fields ?

I believe a greater risk is landing in trees, on buildings, etc. Parachute riggers take their job very seriously.

 

[Ray]

I believe a greater risk is landing in trees, on buildings, etc. Parachute riggers take their job very seriously.

That is true.

My GOC was stuck on a tree and we had to practically 'cut' him down!

One paratrooper landed in the balcony of a 5 Star hotel and he was given breakfast by the hotel in appreciation!

That was a very interesting paradrop!

 

[Adux]

Care to see 1967 incident when we had 5inch Heavy guns at 14000ft..

Today they have more whats the point.

Only you are over estimating them, If not tell me what they have vs us in the region ?

Take a peek at today's news item given by the Army on CNN-IBN.

Dude, I know you are not going to search..

Not when you are posting gibberish.

You posted 1967 incident, I suggest go through that again..

So the infrastructure and capability match of both countries stayed the same, daft!

Keep a watch on all annual exercise held by Indian Army, PARA are always involve as they are airborne troops from 3rd dimension..

Yes, we are the only one's doing exercises, What about they can out number us, dont you get. They have a better logistics and capability, dont be a silly fan boy. OR are you going 1 Indian -- 8 Chinese? Thats what happened in 1962, that is the difference right now. 11000 Para's when faced with 50,000 Para's from their side? I am just making a silly comparison for your entertainment.

If anything atleast check planeman's account of the border area.

 

[Adux]

That is the general impression!

I believe IA has Paras turned to SF, but then they may not be SF?

I will leave it at that.

One has to understand the employment of a strategic force and how it is executed to understand the issue.

Would you call our Para's equivalent the XVIII Airborne Corps US Forces or 15th Corps of the Chinese Forces, both are Strategic Forces, are our Para's the same, do we employ them in similar strategic manner?

 

[Adux]

Adux, U are not getting the point, As per situation the men are deployed, It can be small group and large, I also mentioned abt 190-200 men in one drop and with 4 IL-76MD you can drop a battalion size force with all the arty and other stuff, Study Operation FALCON by Indian forces, IA knows what need to be done..

You dont get it do you? A Battalion sized group aint going to do diddly sqwat, we won in 67 and 87 because we were quicker as well as could bring in more, THEY HAVE NEGATED THAT ADVANTAGE.

Question is been answered with detail here with pics and specs all, Some equipment are not applicable in quote..

The problem with you fanboy's is that: Specs and Pics! It is delievery time, it is offsetting our lack infrasturcture on ground with air assets. Slight issue though we dont have enough trained airborne troops. THEY DO. Since most likely they will be attacking, the troop building up through trains as well as roads will happens before hand, before they could move 15th Corps in 3 Days flat. How much can we move?

Well what type of Airfield matters too..

Yes it does, those airfields are for supply, troops will be air dropped, and jets will fly back to their home ports.

Didn't i said we are working on it ?

I see no much interest shown in Airborne troops, though there is considerable push for Marine as well as Moutain troops.

 

[Yusuf]

Reading up on Op Falcon, interesting that the govt does not recognize the op!!
Checking China: 24 yrs later, Op Falcon still awaits nod

 

[Yusuf]

Wait a min, what are we discussing here? An Indian Airborne op on our own territory in response to a Chinese op into ours or are we talking about an aggressive op by us into their territory?
If its tr former, then troops sizes would not matter I would imagine to the extent that we are the ones holding defensive lines and can round them up and convert tr plains of Assam if they come there into killing fields.

OTOH if we are talking about Indian troops going behind enemy lines then again the size of the troops compared to the Chinese (15th) does not matter as we will be inserting as many troops as we think are required for the job.

I think to understand this whole thing better, we will have to come up with perceived OPOBJ wrt to the Chinese for any op using their 15th. Till then we are all talking all over the place a d actually discussing nothing useful.

Likewise Indian OPOBJ for any op behind enemy lines and in which sectors.

 

[Ray]

Would you call our Para's equivalent the XVIII Airborne Corps US Forces or 15th Corps of the Chinese Forces, both are Strategic Forces, are our Para's the same, do we employ them in similar strategic manner?

Strategic assets, its size, organisation, reach and equipment is based on the Threat Perception.

It is not organised,equipped or employed for cosmetic 'Shock and Awe' or to give a 'feel good' feeling.

One must understand what is the strategic reach one desires and based on that and the Threat Perception is it designed.

One may well argue as to why is the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force not similar to that of the US and hence they are no Navy or Air Force. The reason is obvious, we have no intention of having any expeditionary force aspirations.and it is organised and kitted to meet Indian's requirement and growing!