Who is best in mountain warfare? India or China?

[Yusuf]

Don't let the troll hijack the thread. Ignore.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Whatever they have done to move their artillery, can they move across mountains without roads? Or roads that are so bad that even mules find it a problem?, why do you think it takes days to find out that the Chinese have come into areas, left some marks, and then left?, On the AB Div that is the task of AB troops (theoretical).Take any sector (I will not discuss it for obvious reasons), can they link up?,If no link up and no airH because of the IAF contesting, how long will they last?,Check out Op Market Garden. It was an easier battle than what the Chinese will face.Also check the theoretical staff figures for construction/ improvement of mountain roads and tracks with everything favourable!

Sir, They cannot take arty over mountains without the help from Air, But they molded their mech forces in a way that it can operate and can be used in very narrow passes, the need just 1-2m wide space to operate, The vehicles are deigned to carry logistical support and even had MRLS and mobile mortar, Various kind of Vehicles are fielded for different terrains over mountains, Where they cannot use vehicle their will be pure foot soldiers`s work..

Sir, The patrolling we do is mainly on foot, And its not very regular in peace time..

Op Market Garden is in my mind whenever i say abt PLA Airborne Divisions in Tibet, But PLA have its role in their doctrine, The airborne can be used in various ways, Their Airborne consist of Light IFV/APC, Howitzers, Mortars, AD assets, Formidable force if deployed in short time anywhere near LAC via Aircrafts or Helos..

All the assets in TAR only shows they focused on speed of the operations without much air-cover, The have only 5 airbases for air operation other majority bases are from far eastern side mainly relaying on Mid refulers....





From Our side we have higher Grounds, We have Air cover in sufficient scale so does arty cover, Few Passes to get inside..
Infrastructure can slow them down..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

But going back to TAR, if IA can put 3-4 of it's 12 mountain divisions in TAR within 2 weeks of the start of a PLA attack in Arunachal, then India will have a chance to free a part of Tibet from PRC- Ray and Kunal, do you think it is possible?

The very threat of that will probably make the CCP pull back PLA from Arunachal to bolster TAR. However, IA and IAF also has to hold ground in Arunachal for a month against PLA and PLAAF onslought.

The important thing to remember is that PLA/ PLAAF have the quantitative advantages in terms of troops and support (better infrastructure on the Chinese side). Qualitiatively (equipment wise) I would say that the two sides are at par, with PLA having an edge over IA while IAF having an edge over PLAAF.

1.
That depends, Lets say in War China have a higher strategic ground that pose a thread and can be taken, Its 100% done..
But going deep in Tibet will stretched IA and IA have no orders or plan to retake Tibet..

2.
Ace, Very frankly I doubt PLA can resume the battle for a month or 2 weeks, TAR infrastructure is a prime target for IAF, Their are few main targets, Railways, few highways and tunnels, few main bridges..

3.
PLA have quantitative but not PLAAF, Coz limitation of Airbases on TAR so does no of Aircraft, The main Airbases to support strike ops are far east and relay on Mid air refulers and buddy buddy refueling, It take time to reach destination 1500-2000kms away and gives very early warning abt their approach..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What is the doctrine for Indian Para battalions? Is it similar?

Get behind enemy lines destroy their C4 structure or accomplish given goals, And many other applications..

Now Para are getting 105mm arty and 23mm AAA, With Light strike Vehicles, Slowly IA will make them similar to VDV..

 

[ace009]

No - he missed the later India-China skirmishes where PLA was handed their ass by IA.

 

[ace009]

Read this ...

China Becoming a Superpower and India's Options - Sreedhar

Lastly, the Indian political leadership also realised that the PLA's behavioural pattern on the border had something to do with the domestic turmoil then going on in China.

 

[Adux]

Blind folded shouting doesn't help, Do a little bit research before, Wont take much time..

Please tell me our Airborne qualified troop capacity, what is our rate capacity, talking gibberish aint going to help Kunal, We have serious airlift problems both in terms of airlift qualified equipments, troops and not to mention aircraft.

IAF doing a great job in N.E and J&K, Roads are horrible, But Trucks do their part..

Did you hear what the Brigadier said, even Mules dont pass.

Ever heard Paras of Indian army ? Do you know what is the strength of Indian army size Battalion and Division ?

Do enlighten me, while you are at it, compare it what they are going to face, if we are on the offensive.

Indian army have 13-15 battalions of Paras, Fully equipped and 7 or more of them are SF paras sum of total is 20,000 men approx..

[/QUOTE]

Considering the threat levels, men and equipment needed, that is woeful less of even what Gen.Sundarji wanted, Like I said read about Gen.Sundarji Vision of Army 2000. Talking army gibberish tango, wont make you look great, atleast in front of me.



Gents,

Question,

Is it easier for us to defend from our own territory, or theirs?

 

[pmaitra]

Arunachal is not the same it was when it was called NEFA bhai. Trust me, it is a fortress for invasion and any PLA division that attempts a front there would be simply entering the demolition zone. OTOH, we need stronger defense in Sikkim. At least 2 air force bases in north Sikkim as well as minimally 1 mountain division of infantry forces comprised of people from here. Our people are familiar with the state's terrain like the back of our hand. Since we have more RBCs in us (due to higher altitude), our people recover faster and have better endurance than those used to living in plains. We don't need much training on physical strain since our terrain makes as much workout of our lives on a daily basis and most are physically fighting fit as such. The local youth need special mountain warfare training skills, sharpshooting skills and of course, a strong transportation infrastructure so that forward areas can be reached fast. For example, north Sikkim is very hostile terrain naturally. While Tibet's plateau surface might give PLA trains some ease from their side, it stops right at Himalayas. The border makes fighter jets and many helicopters (except Dhruvs now) useless.

Why do you think CCP are needling in Ladakh? Because Arunachal is only going to invite their doom if they set their eyes on it.

I think we should press the west to stop drawing J&K as 'disputed areas' on map. Either they do that or they can trade with Pakistanis. I think that ought to make them re-think.

It is reassuring to learn that we have good defenses in Arunachal. Yes, I agree, and I have also seen documentaries that explain that people who are born and grow up in the hills develop stronger leg muscles and have larger hearts that make them good mountain fighters.

Regarding Air Force bases in North Sikkim, I am not sure. They have better load carrying capacity at take off time from the plains than from up in the hills. However, we, we could keep attack helos and CAS in smaller airbases up in the hills closer to the border.

It is true that Tibet offers better terrain than the Himalayas. PRC is engaged in massive infrastructure development projects there and it will be very easy for them to bring troops near the border. We definitely need to build more roads and widen them so that we can rush troops close to the border. We also need to build flat airstrips large enough for us to airdrop light armour and enable cargo planes like Ilyushin-76 etc. to land there.

 

[Tshering22]

The 15th can today at best airlift 11,000 troops plus some light arty. This it has to under qbat will be Indian air superiority using MKIs and also advanced SAMs being inducted and deployed on the Chinese front. 15th may well be an expendable force for the chinese and India will oblige them.

I think this is why we need the C-17s ASAP on our side; to expedite the airlifting of troops, light tanks and APCs to the frontline in eastern sector. What we lack is a significant mountain warfare unit of local Sikkimese in the chicken neck area of India. Right now Arunachal is cemented and fortressed, Himachal and Uttarakhand have significant defenses due to large military presence in north India but Ladakh and Sikkim are two weak areas as of now. Despite the presence of military, there is no localized dedicated high altitude warfare unit made of locals. Special operations across the Himalayas will need people who are physically used to the weather of northern Sikkim (very different from southern Sikkim in broader sense). Only the locals of the place can handle that kind of weather. Getting and training small specialized units of such locals into sabotage, unconventional and unconventional warfare similar to MARCOs and Garuds would be a critical turning point if IA manages to do this.

To add further to this point, at least 2 civil enclaves (military airports allowing civilian access as well) are needed here. One probably here in Gangtok and another possibly near Nathu La pass. Apart from this, a rapid transit narrow gauge railway needs to be set up alongside specialized roads of military grade. The problem won't be getting troops here into Sikkim; it only will start once the northern Sikkim is reached. For fellow Indians who are not familiar to the area, infrastructure, modern technology and other such capabilities are almost rendered useless because of weather, altitude and quality of air in that region.

Check this out.

See that Chumbi Valley region (the finger point between Bhutan and Sikkim)? That's the problem. Because of Bhutanese government's inability and our own short-sighted obsession with Pakistan head on, we couldn't prevent the Reds from occupying Chumbi valley bordering region. Once we had direct land connectivity to Bhutan which now we don't as we have to get into Assam and move into Bhutan to continue the war (with Bhutanese permission as if we are going to have trouble, CCP will harass them as well) against Reds. That means until we get the heavy airlifters in Sikkim, get a local mountain warfare unit posted near northern passes, things will not be easy as it should be.

True that a 1962 cannot happen, but if these things are implemented we will get a faster victory.

 

[Adux]

The PLA Air Force 15th Airborne Corps (simplified Chinese: 中国人民解放军空降兵第15军; traditional Chinese: 中國人民解放軍空降兵第15軍; pinyin: Zhōngguó rénmín jiěfàngjūn kōngjiàng bīng dì 15 jūn), Guangzhou Military Region, comprises three airborne divisions (43rd, 44th, 45th airborne divisions). The PLA Air Force's 15th Airborne Corps is China's primary strategic airborne unit and it is part of the newly formed rapid reaction units (RRU) of the Chinese military which is primarily designated for airborne and special operation missions. Unlike most armed forces, the airborne division is part of the Air Force and its role is similar to that of the U.S. Army's 82nd Airborne Division

Reports claim that a 10,000 man airborne division was transported to Tibet in less than 48 hours in 1988.

According to You Ji's "The Armed forces of China", the 15th Airborne Corps has been elevated to the status of a strategic force. It is a departure from the PLA traditional airborne force concept. Doctrinal modernization change allows the 15th Airborne Corps to acts as a principal force employed for independent campaign missions in future wars. It is now accepted that the airborne troops should be used for pre-emptive attack on the enemy's key military targets in the rear area in order to paralyze or disrupt its preparation for an offensive. This kind of large-scale mission cannot be conducted without having a total control in the air. Also, a single-lift capability of 50,000 men is required for this type of missions. Currently, the PLAAF can only lift one division of 11,000 men with light tanks and self-propelled artillery.

The 15th Airborne Corps' weapons inventory includes 50-100 ZLC2000 derivatives and 2S9 self-propelled mortars, large numbers of BJ212 jeeps with 105mm recoilless rifles or HJ-8E ATGM, and Type 89 120 mm SP anti-tank guns. The last two weapon platforms are air transportable. Additional weapons include Type 84 82mm mortars, Type 85 60mm light mortars, Type 85 107 mm MRL, and more. In 1997, a new lightweight high-mobility vehicle entered service. Reportedly, up to ten of this new vehicle can be carry by a Y-7H military transport. Paratroopers are outfitted with portable GPS systems, night-vision goggles, radios and other high-tech equipment.
The Airborne Divisions have various special units, including weapons controllers, reconnaissance, infantry, artillery, communications, engineering, chemical defense, and transportation soldiers. Today, the Airborne Divisions have three regiments plus one light artillery regiment, which are further divided into battalions and companies.

15th Airborne Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Gentlemen,

This coupled with their better infrastructure at their side, what do you think is going to happen. And add our lack of airlift, airborne qualified troops and equipments and atrocious border road network, and make things worse than worse, our geography in the area. Talking military gibberish is all dandy, but that is not going to change ground reality, it makes us look like pakis.

 

[mahesh]

i have a doubt bothering me from long time,
if Paratroopers are dropped near the borders at the time of war (tensions ), the aircraft which are used to droping Paratroops should be obviously flying nearby the border then that aircraft is very much vulnerable to enemies SAM or air to air missile and to their range of strike.

so how do the army around the world will tackle this situation while performing this task?

secondly, Is their any chances of the failures of parachute not opening among hundreds of thousands of Paratroopers being dropped ? is malfunction know issue in this fields ?

your opinion please

 

[Adux]

The 15th can today at best airlift 11,000 troops plus some light arty. This it has to under qbat will be Indian air superiority using MKIs and also advanced SAMs being inducted and deployed on the Chinese front. 15th may well be an expendable force for the chinese and India will oblige them.

That is in one single airlift. Yusuf! The planes will return to pick up the rest of the Corps. Also the there is their Railways bringing in additional troops, the already stationed troops and equipments. Now compare that what India can do? India has to decide where we want to do battle? Is it in our own territory or in theirs? Also Army just have released a video of numerous airfields in the tibet region, previously not known.

 

[Tshering22]

i have a doubt bothering me from long time,
if Paratroopers are dropped near the borders at the time of war (tensions ), the aircraft which are used to droping Paratroops should be obviously flying nearby the border then that aircraft is very much vulnerable to enemies SAM or air to air missile and to their range of strike.

so how do the army around the world will tackle this situation while performing this task?

secondly, Is their any chances of the failures of parachute not opening among hundreds of thousands of Paratroopers being dropped ? is malfunction know issue in this fields ?

your opinion please

From what I've read, the dropping isn't done right over the enemy's heads unless the air forces have clashed and softened both ground and anti-air defenses. In our case, this is very different. In case of a Sino-Indian conflict, it is simply not possible to drop the troops right within visual range of the battle zone especially in northern Sikkim and northern Arunachal (add Ladakh here as well). The air is just too thin and there's practically ravines and gorges full of killer ice and snow that would destroy the soldiers of either countries. PLA might have a nice warm train to drop them on Tibetan side but to air crop onto Himalayas would be suicidal for their soldiers (or even hours). In such a case, the soldiers are dropped reasonably near to the point of engagement but still far enough from SAM batteries. The problem is, because this area is so mountainous, harsh and rugged, SAMs would have to be used in thousands to get the effect of knocking down a few aircraft (since most would collide with some peak or the other and fail to hit targets).

Any fight has to be weapons vs weapons, man vs man with endless supply connectivity to the entire country. What's our advantage here is that while our people at bordering cities are proud Indians, PLA doesn't really have that local support. So while Han China might be having a fine military infrastructure, in the end, a resentful occupied Tibet with its pissed off residents won't be a very supportive environment for injured PLA soldiers or a stretched military. Usually in a real war, people just don't get bombed with missiles in the very first instance or nuked as our 50-cent parties here or dear friends from Land of the Pure love to imagine.

 

[ace009]

15th Airborne Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Gentlemen,

This coupled with their better infrastructure at their side, what do you think is going to happen. And add our lack of airlift, airborne qualified troops and equipments and atrocious border road network, and make things worse than worse, our geography in the area. Talking military gibberish is all dandy, but that is not going to change ground reality, it makes us look like pakis.

Dude - why are you harping on and on about airlift capabilities and lack of airborne troops in IA? IA has 15 paratroop battalions - IAF has 24 Il-76s, 12 C-17s and 16 C-130Js - not to mention a bunch of Antonov An-32s. Put all together with even one sortie a day, IAF can airlift quite a sizable number if needed - right?
As for the paratroopers - IA has some of the most well decorated and most well trained para regiments in Asia. Obviously we would all like to see more personnel and more aircraft, but who would not?

 

[Adux]

i have a doubt bothering me from long time,
if Paratroopers are dropped near the borders at the time of war (tensions ), the aircraft which are used to droping Paratroops should be obviously flying nearby the border then that aircraft is very much vulnerable to enemies SAM or air to air missile and to their range of strike.

so how do the army around the world will tackle this situation while performing this task?

secondly, Is their any chances of the failures of parachute not opening among hundreds of thousands of Paratroopers being dropped ? is malfunction know issue in this fields ?

your opinion please

Airsuperiority has to achieved before Parachute dropping.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Please tell me our Airborne qualified troop capacity, what is our rate capacity, talking gibberish aint going to help Kunal, We have serious airlift problems both in terms of airlift qualified equipments, troops and not to mention aircraft.Did you hear what the Brigadier said, even Mules dont pass. Do enlighten me, while you are at it, compare it what they are going to face, if we are on the offensive.

Google, U dont even know this, 190 troops, or three armoured vehicles, over a distance of 6,100km..

When Airlift comes to mind, You must be indicating lets by C-17 and problems are solved ? ..

I did know what Sir said, And Sir do know what i said, Sir and I both have been there, U are not



I am not going to explain again, Search for Indian para history, U will know what they do in offensive war..

 

[Adux]

]Dude - why are you harping on and on about airlift capabilities and lack of airborne troops in IA? IA has 15 paratroop battalions - IAF has 24 Il-76s, 12 C-17s and 16 C-130Js - not to mention a bunch of Antonov An-32s. Put all together with even one sortie a day, IAF can airlift quite a sizable number if needed - right?

No we dont have 24-IL-76 for airdrops, we dont have 12 C-17, we dont have 16-C-130J's. No, we cant airlift the required number of troops to face the threat level.

As for the paratroopers - IA has some of the most well decorated and most well trained para regiments in Asia. Obviously we would all like to see more personnel and more aircraft, but who would not?

All very dandy, they also have some good units, and they are 4 times the size of Indian airborne troops, coupled with the fact they have better infrastructure to bring in troops through road and rail, they also have better geography than our chicken neck one's.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

if Paratroopers are dropped near the borders at the time of war (tensions ), the aircraft which are used to droping Paratroops should be obviously flying nearby the border then that aircraft is very much vulnerable to enemies SAM or air to air missile and to their range of strike.

so how do the army around the world will tackle this situation while performing this task?secondly, Is their any chances of the failures of parachute not opening among hundreds of thousands of Paratroopers being dropped ? is malfunction know issue in this fields ?
your opinion please

Depends where you dropping them and what time, Airborne Ops are very sensitive, And time and place are very important..

It varies from on many factors, Like enemy troop concentration, Place, Time, route..

Yes, Their are very good chance of parachute failure, But for that their is another parachute call emergency chute..

 

[Adux]

Google, U dont even know this, 190 troops, or three armoured vehicles, over a distance of 6,100km..

Lol. I love arm chair generals who take themselves way too seriously

When Airlift comes to mind, You must be indicating lets by C-17 and problems are solved ? ..

Nope, lets start with increasing the airborne troop strength to the same level that of China, we need them more than they do. Start buying light tanks, M777, equiping the soldiers in the same standards as of the Chinese troops, they get the very best China has to offer, as they like 2nd Artillery, is a strategic asset. Yes, more C-17's,

I did know what Sir said, And Sir do know what i said, Sir and I both have been there, U are not

What is the use of you being there if this is what you spill out, how do you know that I have not been there.

I am not going to explain again, Search for Indian para history, U will know what they do in offensive war..

Means didly sqwat! China is not some push over. The same attitude got us 1962


Like it or not, We need Airborne Strike Corps.Just like we need our Mountain strike Corps.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No we dont have 24-IL-76 for airdrops, we dont have 12 C-17, we dont have 16-C-130J's. No, we cant airlift the required number of troops required from the threat level.

All very dandy, they also have some good units, and they are 4 times the size of Indian airborne troops, coupled with the fact they have better infrastructure to bring in troops through road and rail, they also have better geography than our chicken neck one's.

Adux you drop men depend on type of thread and task, You are not going to capture a city but heights and small towns, Or to block enemy supply-lines over mountain passes, For these you may need few AN-32s, For bigger Ops we have IL-76, which can carry 190-200 men..