What military equipment would YOU like to see in the Indian Armed Forces

[Zebra]

What we need is a quicker and deterring solution. What you suggested is best for long-term but we don't have that much time as our neighbours grow militarily faster than us. If we don't match we will pay for it.

I am afraid, that is what our last two governments wants.
What was the reason that the grate UPA created mess in Indian defence then....!
Even this govt is not in any kind of hurry.
They both use the same modus operandi, buy it from Russians or forget it.

Correct me, if I am wrong.

Watch this........ http://asian-defence-news.blogspot.com.au/2015/08/chinas-economic-and-stock-market-crash.html

........"Go for appeasement ?

Nevertheless, the risks of Chinese “aggression” in key areas will continue to rise for as long as the Chinese economy continues to sink. Surrounding nations would do well to better understand Chinese actions, and either beef up defenses in potential flashpoints, or indeed play for an appeasement strategy which accommodates possible aggression from China that doesn’t pose a real threat to their core territories.

China has long stated that its economic rise was a peaceful one, but with its economy no longer rising so fast, will its promise of peace also disappear?"

 

[I_PLAY_BAD]

I am afraid, that is what our last two governments wants.
What was the reason that the grate UPA created mess in Indian defence then....!
Even this govt is not in any kind of hurry.
They both use the same modus operandi, buy it from Russians or forget it.

Correct me, if I am wrong.

I think we have moved on from buying only from the Russians. We have found new sellers in US, Israel, Sweden, France. There is a bigger game happening in defense procurement. When you buy weapons from a country they see you as an ally. That was the secret behind India's Russian weapons obsession in the past and additionally cost factors. It is more of diplomacy than money. Now our resources increased we are looking for diverse vendors for our various needs. My worry is corruption and inability to channel our diplomatic clout to create more joint ventures in technological innovation and defence manufacturing. It is still work in progress.

 

[bengalraider]

Sir, my two cents....

Try to fix mismanagement of resources.
In India wastage of money in the name of 'system' is gigantic.
If they fix it first, then they don't need to increase the tax payer base.

134 out of 238 million Americans pay income tax, the figure in the peoples republic of China is around 8% of the population. While there are losses that we need to stem urgently. We also have a clear need to increase the population paying tax to at least a quarter of our population.

 

[bengalraider]

First we need a level playing ground here . I see some people with shopping lists of multiple hundred billion$ while others are content with only a few billion$ . I propose a fixed spend of only 25 billion$ each year. This amount is easily attainable as its only about 1.25 % of the GDP. The problem with raising this money as well remains that there are only 3.29 Crore tax payers in India, we need to increase the tax payer base to at least 40%of the population before true growth in any sphere can take place.That said lets get back to the core spend issue.Below is what i would spend if given CAPEX budget of 25 billion$/annum for a governmental term of five years.
Year 1
1) Proper equipment for our soldiers- The PLA spends an average of only $1525/man in kitting out it's soldiers this includes the cost of the rifle at roughly 700$/piece. While there is no reason we should be able to match that amount in the long term in the short term i propose a spend of 2500$/soldier. That would enable us to equip 1 million men in the allotted spend for a year.
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2014/12/08/the-minuscule-cost-of-equipping-a-chinese-soldier/
Year 2
2)Submarines,LHD's and missile craft-
- Four Amur class submarines and associated facilities to be built by L&T and Pipavav (two each) at a cost of approx 550million$/unit for a total cost of roughly 3 billion$( including training and facilities).
- Three SSN's to be built in India with development costs for 9 billion$
- Four Canberra class LHD's at a combined cost of 6 billion$.
- Sixteen Visby class corvettes at a price of approx 4 billion$.
- Sixteen Hamina class missile boats at a combined price of approx 3 billion$.
Year 3
3) Tanks and Artillery
SPG- I would revive the old Bhim program , have AVADI build the Arjun Chassis while TATA could build the T6 turret under license from DENEL. Unit cost should be around 7 million$ as of today. I plan to purchase at least 1000 units of the same. Cost 7 billion$
Towed Arty- 1000 Bharat-52 at cost of roughly 2 billion$
1000 Dhanush Howitzers/ATAGS at a cost of roughly 2 billion $
1500 Pinaka MBRL at a cost of 2 billion $
500 M777 at a cost of approx 3 billion$
Tanks- 700 ARJUN mk2 tanks at a cost of roughly 6 billion$
APC's- 1000 TATA Kestrels at a cost of 3 billion$
Year 4
4) AWACS,TANKERS, Transports, logistical and attack helicopters and Combat Aircraft
AWACS- 4 more DRDO ELTA AIRBUS AWACS at a cost of 2 billion$
TANKERS- 5 more AIRBUS MRTT/BOEING KC-46 at a cost of 3 billion$
TRANSPORTS-
20 more C-17s at a cost of 6 billion $
30 more C-130H at a cost of 1 billion$
200 more DHRUV ALH at a cost of 1 billion$
20 MI-26 at a cost of 500 million$
20 CH-47 Chinook at a cost of 500 million$
200 mi-17 V5 at an approx cost of 1 billion$
ATTACK HELICOPTERS
100 more LCH at a cost of 500 million$
30 more APACHE AH-64E LONGBOW at a cost of 1 billion $
COMBAT AIRCRAFT
80 MIG-35 at a total cost of 2.5 billion $
I would pump the remaining into the LCA program
Year 5
SAM systems and AA guns
20 Batteries of S-300VM at an estimated cost of 4 billion$.(To be used as addition to Indian ABM system)
20 Batteries of AKASH MRSAM at an estimated cost of 1 billion$.
20 Batteries of BARAK-8 at a cost of approx 3 billion$.
200 Pantsir S1 units at a cost of approx 2 billion$
5 more BRAHMOS LACM batteries at a cost of 5 billion$

I would spend the remaining 10 billion$ on base mordenisation and facilities for the troops.

One change to the above
I humbly withdraw the proposal for 16 hamina class missile boats and add 16 skjold class missile corvettes instead. Cost remains unchanged.

 

[roma]

Re: What military equipment would YOU like to see in the Indian Armed
i share your basic vision ....but mine is simpler and therefore more attainable -

yes india should more seriously aim for totally indegenous programs ... ...BUT less variety of products and but widening the strategic aspect - i.e- less variety of weapons but greater numbers of each and thus greater deployment ..by limiting the variety of weapons the idea is to intensify the effort to totally indegenise production and then do our own innovation and development to next generation .... at the mement we are dazzled by new products from abroad and so we keep buying ....FEWER PROJECTS , BETTER INDEGENISATION LARGER MANUFACTURING

india has already spent a lot widening the range of products - can now afford to go indigenous on each ... we are good at missile development ? so more missiles - less buying AC from half-friends
in summary - two main areas :-
(1) i would like to see india go for megaton test -
(2) missile development - in collaboration with ISRO for space to earth missile weapons

that's what i wrote two and a half years ago and surprisingly it is the same today ........i'll simplify it to two major categories
A. more indigenization so we can afford greater quantity
- this applies to good quality products such as LCA

and

B. thermonukes - we will need it not only technologically but also as a political statement , that we CAN do it and who will or can try stop us ? so politically it will be a good experiment

secondly it will also force packland into a new arms spending at a time when their papa prchina is going through financial downward path

we dont have to actually test the stuff but merely make the public declaration that they have been inducted into the forces .....should give packland the scares and give india greater political breadth in security negotiations ...( the induction announcements have to be done in a credible way )

ref
@angeldude13 @bose @brational @blueblood @anupamsurey @ersakthivel @Blackwater @bengalraider @cobra commando @DingDong @Hari Sud @Kunal Biswas @LETHALFORCE @mhk99 @Neil @OneGrimPilgrim @pmaitra @Rowdy @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sorcerer @TejasMK3 @Yusuf @jackprince @Bangalorean @indiandefencefan @aliyah @hit&run @VIP @Razor @Blood+ @Screambowl @Sylex21 @tsunami @Zebra @sgarg @Rashna
@laughingbuddha
@blue marlin

 

[bengalraider]

@roma - While I agree with your suggestion that we should spend more on strategic programs. I'd also point out that in various cases in order to build up numbers quickly we shall still need to buy various items from any manufacturer we can get.

 

[Rowdy]

A Logical and Strategic Brain
...................................................

 

[Zebra]

A Logical and Strategic Brain
...................................................

:hippo:

They desperately needs it.

But they are aware of it....!
I doubt. :biggrin2:

 

[Screambowl]

that's what i wrote two and a half years ago and surprisingly it is the same today ........i'll simplify it to two major categories
A. more indigenization so we can afford greater quantity
- this applies to good quality products such as LCA

and

B. thermonukes - we will need it not only technologically but also as a political statement , that we CAN do it and who will or can try stop us ? so politically it will be a good experiment

secondly it will also force packland into a new arms spending at a time when their papa prchina is going through financial downward path

we dont have to actually test the stuff but merely make the public declaration that they have been inducted into the forces .....should give packland the scares and give india greater political breadth in security negotiations ...( the induction announcements have to be done in a credible way )

ref
@angeldude13 @bose @brational @blueblood @anupamsurey @ersakthivel @Blackwater @bengalraider @cobra commando @DingDong @Hari Sud @Kunal Biswas @LETHALFORCE @mhk99 @Neil @OneGrimPilgrim @pmaitra @Rowdy @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sorcerer @TejasMK3 @Yusuf @jackprince @Bangalorean @indiandefencefan @aliyah @hit&run @VIP @Razor @Blood+ @Screambowl @Sylex21 @tsunami @Zebra @sgarg @Rashna
@laughingbuddha
@blue marlin

Or do a cold test of agni series with actual weapon grade device without the fissile material but just conventional explosive and give the headlines.

 

[blue marlin]

that's what i wrote two and a half years ago and surprisingly it is the same today ........i'll simplify it to two major categories
A. more indigenization so we can afford greater quantity
- this applies to good quality products such as LCA

and

B. thermonukes - we will need it not only technologically but also as a political statement , that we CAN do it and who will or can try stop us ? so politically it will be a good experiment

secondly it will also force packland into a new arms spending at a time when their papa prchina is going through financial downward path

we dont have to actually test the stuff but merely make the public declaration that they have been inducted into the forces .....should give packland the scares and give india greater political breadth in security negotiations ...( the induction announcements have to be done in a credible way )

A. the lca is a failure but an excellent learning curve. you learn the hard way, but its the best way. the indigenous 5th gen fighter would obivoulsy benefit from this failure/lesson. even the akash missile, its obsolete but a great leaning curve. our bloodhound missile is even better. and thats 1950's tech. but you're getting there and thats all that matters.

B. thermonukes. you did in-fact test a thermonuke but it failed to go of properly. developing thermonucear weapons will result in very heavy international sanctions. it will send you back to 1947. i read an interesting article, from a Pakistani who works with the military and it says both india and pakistan are able to develop h bombs but with pakistan it wont develop such weapons under moral ethics.

 

[no smoking]

that's what i wrote two and a half years ago and surprisingly it is the same today ........i'll simplify it to two major categories
A. more indigenization so we can afford greater quantity
- this applies to good quality products such as LCA

LCA--Good quality product? Don't you think it is too early to tell before this plane get "FOC"?

B. thermonukes - we will need it not only technologically but also as a political statement , that we CAN do it and who will or can try stop us ? so politically it will be a good experiment

Of course, politically!
But militarily it make no sense when P5 is transfer their delivery devices back to conventional weapons;
Economically, it is even stupid.

secondly it will also force packland into a new arms spending at a time when their papa prchina is going through financial downward path

Pakistan will laugh their ass off. There is nothing better for them that India spend more on nuke instead of tank.
Which one they fear most? The nuclear weapons that they know India won't use proactively or those fighters and tanks that can cross the border anytime?

we dont have to actually test the stuff but merely make the public declaration that they have been inducted into the forces .....should give packland the scares and give india greater political breadth in security negotiations ...( the induction announcements have to be done in a credible way )

Don't you think they will check the number of weapons deployed? The training of those regiments armed with these weapons? Even they don't, Americans and Chinese won't tell them?

 

[pmaitra]

One change to the above
I humbly withdraw the proposal for 16 hamina class missile boats and add 16 skjold class missile corvettes instead. Cost remains unchanged.

Why?

The Skjold-class corvette is a surface effect craft, much like the Soviet Ekranoplan. This is something India needs to explore, and they should be made in India, and India can make them in India.

 

[roma]

A. the lca is a failure but an excellent learning curve. you learn the hard way, but its the best way. the indigenous 5th gen fighter would obivoulsy benefit from this failure/lesson. even the akash missile, its obsolete but a great leaning curve. our bloodhound missile is even better. and thats 1950's tech. but you're getting there and thats all that matters.

B. thermonukes. you did in-fact test a thermonuke but it failed to go of properly. developing thermonucear weapons will result in very heavy international sanctions. it will send you back to 1947. i read an interesting article, from a Pakistani who works with the military and it says both india and pakistan are able to develop h bombs but with pakistan it wont develop such weapons under moral ethics.

Hindustan LCA, especially compared to some of the american planes ( F35 , costing 300 million ? ) is turning out to be rather quite a success, value for money , after all !

but even without the comparison, as india first attempt and under a former slow moving government i'd say the LCA is doing just fine , thank you ! ......now of course with better governance, things will pick up even better for LCA 1 A and MCA etc

as for thermonukes , i did specify that we wouldnt want to test , didnt i ? watch them paks .....they will sweat and skew all money towards defence yet again, to catch up with india :biggrin2: ..as for your last sentence linking packland with moral ethics ????, nice sense of humour !

ref @angeldude13 @bose @brational @blueblood @anupamsurey @ersakthivel @Blackwater @bengalraider @cobra commando @DingDong @Hari Sud @Kunal Biswas @LETHALFORCE @mhk99 @Neil @OneGrimPilgrim @pmaitra @Rowdy @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sorcerer @TejasMK3 @Yusuf @jackprince @Bangalorean @indiandefencefan @aliyah @hit&run @VIP @Razor @Blood+ @Screambowl @Sylex21 @tsunami @Zebra @sgarg @Rashna
@laughingbuddha
@blue marlin
post Script; :

@roma, F-22 cannot be called a failure. It has not been inducted in large numbers, not because it is a failure, but because it is exorbitantly expensive. Still, a little less than 200 is not a bad number. F-35 on the other hand is more of a money sink and less of a success.

clarification pls , nowhere did i call F22 or 35 failure, i merely considered LCA successful compared to f35 in terms of cost value ratio ......small distinction to be made ...otherwise many thanks for your post , it is well received .

 

[pmaitra]

@roma, F-22 cannot be called a failure. It has not been inducted in large numbers, not because it is a failure, but because it is exorbitantly expensive. Still, a little less than 200 is not a bad number. F-35 on the other hand is more of a money sink and less of a success.

 

[charlie]

@roma, F-22 cannot be called a failure. It has not been inducted in large numbers, not because it is a failure, but because it is exorbitantly expensive. Still, a little less than 200 is not a bad number. F-35 on the other hand is more of a money sink and less of a success.

I think one more reason would be, who is going to challenge F22 as no other country pitched a 5th generation aircraft, it's some thing like B1 bomber it was introduced 8 years ahead of it's time and F22 is introduced 15 to 20 years ahead of it's time.

 

[bengalraider]

Why?

The Skjold-class corvette is a surface effect craft, much like the Soviet Ekranoplan. This is something India needs to explore, and they should be made in India, and India can make them in India.

Why?We could make these but as i mentioned it makes no sense to spend sparse funds developing non strategic platforms from scratch when we can just buy the tech. We can wait to develop our own ekranoplanes Until we have developed all the strategic platforms we want.
Because these babies are a proven design now and also because having a squadron of these babies would give us a very credible surprise attack naval weapon system. The Skjold class and the Visby are probably the most stealthy surface vessels on the market right now, this could become the core of a new surprise package on Karachi. i would spread these sixteen into four groups of four operating from various bases in Gujarat . In the time of a crisis these "wolfpacks" could make it to striking distance of Karachi , launch strike packages of the NSM(these also have a land attack capability which we could use to take out KANUPP) and make it back to their home bases all in a little more than 5-6 hours.
P.S i plan to keep the Visby squadron in the Andamans.

 

[Zebra]

..................clarification pls , nowhere did i call F22 or 35 failure, i merely considered LCA successful compared to f35 in terms of cost value ratio ......small distinction to be made ...otherwise many thanks for your post , it is well received .

@ roma , for F-22 cost matter, take it in this way, let me put in my words.....and I took all these figures from wiki........

They originally planned for 750 birds. (production supposed to start from 1994 onwards)
Even before production starts they started to reduce the numbers.
In 1990 they make it to 648.
Again in 1994, they changed the numbers, 442 now.
In 1997 they reduced again, 339.
In 2003 it become 277.
Finally they end up by 183, in 2006.

In 2006 the total program cost was $62 billion.
They spent $34 billion on actual procurement and $28 billion in research, development and testing.

 

[blueblood]

@roma , LCA is not that big a success as a platform but is responsible for the creation of domestic manufacturing habitat which will bear its fruits in time to come.

 

[hit&run]

@roma Thanks for tagging me in.

I am not here for fancy toys all I want best of the logistics and logistical support army can get. Another would be better gear, shoes, uniforms and other sundry items. Anything that can made life easier for the solider at borders. I won't mind an i-pad for each.

I remember seeing a slogan that we will at Lasa (something). To become an invasive offensive force or whatever they call it the level of such essentials has to go many folds high.

GPS guided drop off supplies, tracked artillery, mountain ready armored vehicles I can add to the list as well.

Communication; we are doing quite well by providing dedicated satellites, in 5 years we be best in that regard for all the branches, i hope we be able make communication devices at home to receive our own signals.

 

[Screambowl]

Hindustan LCA, especially compared to some of the american planes ( F35 , costing 300 million ? ) is turning out to be rather quite a success, value for money , after all !

but even without the comparison, as india first attempt and under a former slow moving government i'd say the LCA is doing just fine , thank you ! ......now of course with better governance, things will pick up even better for LCA 1 A and MCA etc

as for thermonukes , i did specify that we wouldnt want to test , didnt i ? watch them paks .....they will sweat and skew all money towards defence yet again, to catch up with india :biggrin2: ..as for your last sentence linking packland with moral ethics ????, nice sense of humour !

ref @angeldude13 @bose @brational @blueblood @anupamsurey @ersakthivel @Blackwater @bengalraider @cobra commando @DingDong @Hari Sud @Kunal Biswas @LETHALFORCE @mhk99 @Neil @OneGrimPilgrim @pmaitra @Rowdy @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sorcerer @TejasMK3 @Yusuf @jackprince @Bangalorean @indiandefencefan @aliyah @hit&run @VIP @Razor @Blood+ @Screambowl @Sylex21 @tsunami @Zebra @sgarg @Rashna
@laughingbuddha
@blue marlin
post Script; :

clarification pls , nowhere did i call F22 or 35 failure, i merely considered LCA successful compared to f35 in terms of cost value ratio ......small distinction to be made ...otherwise many thanks for your post , it is well received .

LCA is beginning and a base system on which we will further develop much advance technology.

F22 is highly advance fighter , and not a failure in terms of capability or technical aspects. Management of the project may be called as failure because it has not been yet inducted with full force or totally has changed the ideology of USAF,