TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[jai jaganath]

View attachment 171834

Twin Engine Deck Based Fighters Update:
-Apr 2020 #IndianNavy & Aeronautical Development Agency proposal and $1.75 Bn #Indian govt approval
-Sep 2022: Preliminary design phase begins
-2024: Design phase to implementation phase
-2026: 1st prototype flight
-2032: Mass production

Spoiler

Has GOI cleared the funds

 

[MonaLazy]

Has GOI cleared the funds

frontierindia.com/ada-to-ready-aircraft-carrier-based-fighter-tedbf-for-the-indian-navy-by-2026/

The development of flying prototypes should cost around $1.75 billion, according to first estimates.

In September 2022, ADA began the preliminary design phase of TEDBF, which is expected to be completed within two years. The design process consists of three parts. The initial step involves sizing, refining, and enhancing the aerodynamic design of the TEDBF. Using CFD Analysis, the aerodynamic configuration will then be adjusted. Subsequently, a wind tunnel testing model for high-speed and low-speed tests would be developed for TEDBF aircraft. In the last part of the preliminary phase, the wind tunnel will be used to evaluate the canard, air intake, and DSI.

Within two to three years, the TEDBF project is expected to transition from the design phase to the implementation phase. In an optimistic scenario, the aircraft will be finished by 2026.

Expect funds release once the project moves from design to implementation phase.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I'm new to the forum, so guide me accordingly.
If F/A 18 can be pitched to both Navy and Air force, can't tedbf be pitched to IAF without any 'ORCA song and dance' ?

Any navy fighter is always suitable for airforce but not otherway round.

 

[Suryavanshi]

View attachment 171834

Twin Engine Deck Based Fighters Update:
-Apr 2020 #IndianNavy & Aeronautical Development Agency proposal and $1.75 Bn #Indian govt approval
-Sep 2022: Preliminary design phase begins
-2024: Design phase to implementation phase
-2026: 1st prototype flight
-2032: Mass production

Spoiler

If we are really serious about this than their is no point in Buying 57 F 18 or Rafale M.
If we place the order now F 18 will start rolling out by 2025 and rafale make take longer than that.
Better to put all the eggs in this basket and indiginise our carrier platform once and for all.

Shift all the performing MIG 29 on Vikrant and leaves the low serviceability ones to Vikramaditya as it spends more time in Harbour rather than sea these days. In that way we wouldn't compromise with our capability.

 

[MonaLazy]

If we are really serious about this than their is no point in Buying 57 F 18 or Rafale M.
If we place the order now F 18 will start rolling out by 2025 and rafale make take longer than that.
Better to put all the eggs in this basket and indiginise our carrier platform once and for all.

Shift all the performing MIG 29 on Vikrant and leaves the low serviceability ones to Vikramaditya as it spends more time in Harbour rather than sea these days. In that way we wouldn't compromise with our capability.

1. We are dead serious about this which is why the MRCBF #s were toned down from 57 to just 26
2. If we put all our eggs in the TEDBF basket, FF 2026, service entry by 2032 is an optimistic timeline- still that's 10 years Vikrant will have to sail without a reliable fighter!
3. The current incumbent on Indian ACC Mig-29K has problems, & is a definite no go, otherwise, a repeat order of some more mig-29ks would have been ideal-

The Indian Navy currently uses the MiG-29K onboard its carriers, which has certain operational issues. The engine has been reported to have fuel problems, excessive oil consumption, and too many failures.

4. Whoever the winner of MRCBF- a few planes can be leased immediately (1 year?) to be relevant to that 10-year timeline while the new from factory take their time coming​

5. Looking forward by the time Vishal comes online- MRCBF & TEDBF will fly the flag on all 3 ACCs.​

 

[Blademaster]

View attachment 171834

Twin Engine Deck Based Fighters Update:
-Apr 2020 #IndianNavy & Aeronautical Development Agency proposal and $1.75 Bn #Indian govt approval
-Sep 2022: Preliminary design phase begins
-2024: Design phase to implementation phase
-2026: 1st prototype flight
-2032: Mass production

Spoiler

This is one beautiful looking plane!!! Can't wait to see it fly in the skies and become the mainstay of IAF and IN. If done correctly, it can totally replace the Rafales and Su-30MKIs.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

1. We are dead serious about this which is why the MRCBF #s were toned down from 57 to just 26
2. If we put all our eggs in the TEDBF basket, FF 2026, service entry by 2032 is an optimistic timeline- still that's 10 years Vikrant will have to sail without a reliable fighter!
3. The current incumbent on Indian ACC Mig-29K has problems, & is a definite no go, otherwise, a repeat order of some more mig-29ks would have been ideal-

4. Whoever the winner of MRCBF- a few planes can be leased immediately (1 year?) to be relevant to that 10-year timeline while the new from factory take their time coming​

5. Looking forward by the time Vishal comes online- MRCBF & TEDBF will fly the flag on all 3 ACCs.​

If we can make that 75kn/125 kn engine, even MWF can be made carrier compatible if navy agrees on single engine fighter.

 

[Blademaster]

If we can make that 75kn/125 kn engine, even MWF can be made carrier compatible if navy agrees on single engine fighter.

Only with a catapult.

 

[NutCracker]

If we are really serious about this than their is no point in Buying 57 F 18 or Rafale M.
If we place the order now F 18 will start rolling out by 2025 and rafale make take longer than that.
Better to put all the eggs in this basket and indiginise our carrier platform once and for all.

Shift all the performing MIG 29 on Vikrant and leaves the low serviceability ones to Vikramaditya as it spends more time in Harbour rather than sea these days. In that way we wouldn't compromise with our capability.

nah. production rate is 24 for f-18 , US MI complex can start delivering within 2 years of signing and deliver 15-18 in 1.5 years to make minimum 18 requirement to make AC fully combat ready.

its not good to waste precious life years of perfectly capable AC be it Vikramaditya or VIkrant.

also we are buying only 26.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Only with a catapult.

That is true with all aircraft carrier except vertical take off plane like F35. Any Point Here?

 

[Blademaster]

That is true with all aircraft carrier except vertical take off plane like F35. Any Point Here?

Because the Navy tried to see if the NLCA could work on a ski jump which didn't and a more powerful engine would not do the trick.

 

[DumbPilot]

AMCA & TEDBF....

This is surprising. Tejas Mk1 didn't have a JFS system? I thought the F404 allowed such an operation

 

[lcafanboy]

Very informative thread....

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

View attachment 172080

This is surprising. Tejas Mk1 didn't have a JFS system? I thought the F404 allowed such an operation

Tejas Mk1 does have a JFS system. Even an APU (on FOC version). And it has been qualified for windmill relight, so its safe that way. Maybe the JFS is not qualified for inflight relights? Don't know.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Tejas Mk1 does have a JFS system. Even an APU (on FOC version). And it has been qualified for windmill relight, so its safe that way. Maybe the JFS is not qualified for inflight relights? Don't know.

Tejas mk1 has jfs,Tejas mk2 was supposed to have JFS MK2(AA-17,19 i don't remember now)

 

[DumbPilot]

Tejas Mk1 does have a JFS system. Even an APU (on FOC version). And it has been qualified for windmill relight, so its safe that way. Maybe the JFS is not qualified for inflight relights? Don't know.

That doesn't make sense.. JFS operation needs to be at the right pressure and with the correct intake airspeed. Only the engine producer will do those qualifications.

This is a F-16 JFS schematic. Such schematics are prepared for each engine, so the Tejas Mk1 should have a verified JFS airstart.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

That doesn't make sense.. JFS operation needs to be at the right pressure and with the correct intake airspeed. Only the engine producer will do those qualifications.
View attachment 174131

This is a F-16 JFS schematic. Such schematics are prepared for each engine, so the Tejas Mk1 should have a verified JFS airstart.

It does make sense, even more so after your comment. That JFS envelope in this diagram can only be tested and marked down by the engine OEM. As a result JFS assist to relights is only possible once this envelope is known. But Tejas Mk1 JFS was designed and developed by HAL. As a result, they only tested it for take offs not for relights. As can be seen in this article: https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...reakthrough/articleshow/46044701.cms?from=mdr

Further details on this JFS assisted cold-soak startup in high altitude airfields (sauce: https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/files/newsletter-document/Mar_15.pdf )

So from this its clear that HAL made their own JFS, certified it for ground starts, but since there is no high altitude test facility in India and because we are not the engine OEM either, the entire envelope of the JFS was not noted and marked like in the F-16 engine airstart diagram you showed. As a result, Tejas Mk1 relies on windmill relight for now and can't do starter assisted relight. So when they say "JFS with in-flight relight capability" is a feature they are looking to give in Mk2, it makes perfect sense.

 

[DumbPilot]

It does make sense, even more so after your comment. That JFS envelope in this diagram can only be tested and marked down by the engine OEM. As a result JFS assist to relights is only possible once this envelope is known. But Tejas Mk1 JFS was designed and developed by HAL. As a result, they only tested it for take offs not for relights. As can be seen in this article: https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...reakthrough/articleshow/46044701.cms?from=mdr

Further details on this JFS assisted cold-soak startup in high altitude airfields (sauce: https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/files/newsletter-document/Mar_15.pdf )
View attachment 174152

So from this its clear that HAL made their own JFS, certified it for ground starts, but since there is no high altitude test facility in India and because we are not the engine OEM either, the entire envelope of the JFS was not noted and marked like in the F-16 engine airstart diagram you showed. As a result, Tejas Mk1 relies on windmill relight for now and can't do starter assisted relight. So when they say "JFS with in-flight relight capability" is a feature they are looking to give in Mk2, it makes perfect sense.

That's a bit of a shame for the Mk1. Thanks for the article

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

 

[Eagle Eye]

ccs sanction will happen only after CDR completed.