Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E

[p2prada]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

a incoming bvr missile can be taken out with wvr missile ?
hypothesis ?

Not a hypothesis. It is planned.

But I suppose if the Russians are planning it, so are the others.

Also there is no guarantee it will succeed. Directed energy weapons may be used instead.

 

[Jagdish]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

Only the battle between two will determine who is superior , for example in 1971 Mig-21 Vs F-104 when all western experts got who thought F-104 would easily overcome Mig-21

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

Only the battle between two will determine who is superior , for example in 1971 Mig-21 Vs F-104 when all western experts got who thought F-104 would easily overcome Mig-21

Unfortunately, or should I say fortunately, we can only rely on tech specs for now. Perhaps future exercises will determine the progress of the aircraft.

According to IAF officers, the Super MKI upgrade project will push the MKI ahead of the Rafale.

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

According to IAF officers, the Super MKI upgrade project will push the MKI ahead of the Rafale.

Well said. Rafale got upper hand over Su 30 mki in one major aspect(in BVR and dog fight) its huge RCS .When our sukoi get stealthy it withh have great ability to sneek and fire r 77 missile and other missile like bramos from stand of range. Even in dog fight Su 30 mki is known and compares with best in the world. I agree

But my simple worry is Super sukoi will come closer to su 35 .So its inferrior to su 35 fighter. Rafale will have hard time chasing super sukoi and think wat ll happen when france rafale and russian su 35 goes for war ?

 

[Mariner HK]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

Toan from f-16.net compiled some information regarding this. I think the last line in bold should say it all.

Comparison among F-22A, Su-35, EF-2000, and RAFALE C

1. Normal take-off：
* F-22A: 27,200 kg
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* EF-2K: 17,000 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg

2. MTOW：
* F-22A: 28,120 kg
* Su-35: 34,500 kg
* EF-2K: 23,500 kg
* Rafale: 24,500 kg

3. Internal Fuel：
* F-22A: 9,330 kg
* Su-35: 11,500 kg
* EF-2K: 5,000 kg
* Rafale: 4,750 kg

4. Maximal Payload：
* F-22A: unknown
* Su-35: 8,000 kg
* EF-2K: 7,500 kg+
* Rafale: 9,500 kg

5. Maximal Speed, 11,000 m：
* F-22A: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 ~ 2.42 Mach)
* Su-35: 2.25 Mach
* EF-2K: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 Mach)
* Rafale: 1.80 Mach+ (2.00 Mach)

6. Maximal speed, 200 m：
* F-22A: 800 kts
* Su-35: 1,400 km/hr
* EF-2K: 1.14 Mach
* Rafale: 750 kts

7. Climb rate：
* F-22A: 350 m/sec, sea-level
* Su-35: 280 m/sec+, 1,000 m
* EF-2K: 315 m/sec+, sea-level
* Rafale: 305 m/sec+, sea-level

8. Operational Altitude：
* F-22A: 70,000 fts
* Su-35: 59,000 fts
* EF-2K: 65,000 fts
* Rafale: 55,000 fts

9. Ferry range：
* F-22A: 3,500 km (Internal Fuel)
* Su-35: 4,500 km (Internal Fuel + 2000 L tanks*2)
* EF-2K: 2,600 km (Internal Fuel)
* Rafale: > 2,100 km (Internal Fuel)


10. Acceleration：

* F-22A: unknown.

* Su-35: 13.8 secs from 600 km/hr to 1,100 km/hr, and 8 secs from 1,100 km/hr to 1,300 km/hr（with 50% internal fuel, standard A-A configuration, and height of 1,000 m）.

* EF-2K: less than 20 seconds from 200 kts to Mach 0.9 (Twin-seaters with one 1,000 L tank and two ASRAAM, altitude unknown).

* Rafale: around 20 seconds from 300 km/hr to 1,000 km/hr at low altitude.


11. Normal upper G-limit：
* F-22A: +9.5G
* Su-35: +9.0G
* EF-2K: +9.0G
* Rafale: +9.0G

12. T/W ratio of normal take-off（AB / Max. Mil.）：
* F-22A: 1.17 ~ 1.30 / 0.85 ~ 0.87
* Su-35: 1.10 ~ 1.15 / 0.69 ~ 0.70
* EF-2K: 1.08 ~ 1.14 / 0.72 ~ 0.83
* Rafale: 1.02 ~ 1.03 / 0.68 ~ 0.69

13. Take-off with standard A-A configuration：
* F-22A: 244 m
* Su-35: 400 to 450 m
* EF-2K: 228 ~ 275 m（Emergency take-off）to 457 m（Normal take-off）.
* Rafale: 400 m

14. Landing：
* F-22A: unknown.
* Su-35: 650 m（with the help of braking and parachute）
* EF-2K: 500 to 700 m
* Rafale: 400 m（with the help of braking only）


15. Radar's range：

* F-22A: Tracking target of RCS = 1 m2 at the range of 200 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 375 to 440 km away theoretically --> 329 ~ 386.

* Su-35: Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 350 to 400 km away --> 307 ~ 351.

* EF-2K: Tracking target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 160 ~ 185 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 200 to 272 km away theoretically --> 175 ~ 239.

* Rafale: Detecting target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 130 ~ 148 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 114 to 130 km away theoretically --> 100 ~ 114.


16. Maximal horizontal scanning angle of Radar：
* F-22A: +/- 60 degrees
* Su-35: +/-120 degrees
* EF-2K: +/- 70 degrees
* Rafale: +/- 60 degrees

17. Capability of multiple target engagement：
* F-22A: Tracking 100 and engaging 6+.
* Su-35: Tracking 30 and engaging 8.
* EF-2K: Tracking 20+ and engagine 6 to 8.
* Rafale: Tracking 40 and engaging 4 to 6.

18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of range being detected:
* F-22A: 0.00015 ~ 0.0006 m2 --> 1 ~ 4 --> 1.00 ~ 1.41
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~ 11.89
* EF-2K: 0.1 ~ 0.5 m2 --> 666 ~ 3333 --> 5.08 ~ 7.60
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~ 6.04


19. Su-35 v.s other western fighters:

* Theoretically, F-22A shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 285 to 440 km / 200 to 308 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track F-22A at the range of 29 to 48 km / 17 to 34 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, EF-2K shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 153 to 272 km / 107 to 163 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track EF-2K at the range of 150 to 256 km / 90 to 180 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to 91 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to 142 km away in head to head engagement.
F-22A / EF-2000 / Rafale versus Su-35BM :: F-16.net
Also note that these are for clean loads. Not when carrying combat loads. Except for the F-22.

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

What is going on people? Humbly request you all to please follow the forum decorum, stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.

Lets not behave like this...

[video=youtube_share;vMd4xlS7OPc]http://youtu.be/vMd4xlS7OPc[/video]

 

[Daredevil]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

Allaudin and Mariner HK, stop abusing and attacking each other. Debate with civility, if you can't then don't post. Learn to agree to disagree. If you guys continue like this infractions and bans will follow

 

[Drsomnath999]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

. In fact, they said the MKI had better situational awareness

when did they said that ???

LPI was invented after WW1, made possible before WW2. So enough with the LPI nonsense.

. Irbis-E is a much superior radar compared to Bars. Bars has LPI modes. Irbis is capable of multifunction modes too, like RBE-2

Yes BARS has LPI modes but it's LPI mode is inferior when compare to the LPI efficiency of AESA radars

BTW
here is a link

from
Flanker Radars in Beyond Visual Range Air Combat

RBE-2AA's capabilities against number of targets is yet unknown. RBE-2 PESA is 40 targets shown on screen upon detection, 24 targets tracked and 4 engaged with datalinks.

Irbis-E can track 30 targets, engage 8 with datalinks. That's a huge difference. RBE-2AA should have a much higher TWS capability and equivalent engagement capability.

Thats wrong RBE 2 AA's capabilties are known RBE 2 pesa is inferior to IRBIS E no need to compare it
concentrate on RBE 2 aesa radar instead
2) RBE 2 functions:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_2.pdf

it can also track & engage 8 targets simultaneosly with MICA in future may be with meteor

In combat LPI & anti jammiing radar would have the upperhand

I would agree. But most air superiority aircraft don't use ECM for air to air missions due to the amount of information thrown away in a high threat environment. That's why both EF and F-22 still do not have internal ECM suites. SIGINT capability exists on all aircraft. The Chinese may use their own systems.

Ur agreeing as if ur doing any mercy on me & rafale
Anyways just kidding

Khibiny M is also not an ordinary EW suite but apart from 4 points which i mention in thread their is another point which i have nt mentioned becoz one can challenge it as a myth
ie ACTIVE CANCELLATION tech

According to the article by Bill Sweetman, published in Popular Science,

Spectra's active jamming subsystem uses phased-array antennas located at the roots of the canards. Dassault has stated that the EW transmit antennas can produce a pencil beam compatible with the accuracy of the receiver system, concentrating power on the threat while minimizing the chances of detection.

But there is more to Spectra than conventional jamming. Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, a Thales engineer on the Spectra program, remarked in a 1997 interview that Spectra uses "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO [low-observable] aircraft." When asked if he was talking about active cancellation, Chaltiel declined to answer.

Active cancellation is a LO technique in which the aircraft, when painted by a radar, transmits a signal which mimics the echo that the radar will receive - but one half-wavelength out of phase, so that the radar sees no return at all. .

& cueing an anti-radiation missile can be done by any 4th gen TOM ,DICK & Harry jet but cueing an active radar guided missile/ precision guided mission is a different
thing which Spectra & F 22's ALR -94 is capable of

what chinese may be having that is upto them

Not a big deal. The Koreans are planning a GaN module based radar for their KF-X program.

of course it's a big deal , It would replace Ga As modules & is far more efficient


What koreans are doing is not related to Su 35 .

An excellent capability to have for multirole aircraft. It doesn't seem like Su-35 has a CIP. But it doesn't look like Su-35 needs it as an air superiority fighter rather than a multirole aircraft.

No a superior system core is vital for every electronic operation related to a plane just look at F22 / F35 planes system core very crucial for target interpretaion from all sensors(RADARS,ESM), situational awareness & sensor fusion

Subjective since we do not know how far the Chinese have progressed. The Russians had RAMJET air to air missiles since the early 90s. They first showed it off in 1992 in an air show. As of today we still do not know of the status of the missile or its future derivatives. As a matter of fact the RVV-AE-PD was an export version of the missile.

The Chinese have their own development called the PL-21 and it is not clear if they merely bought "one" of the Russian missiles in development

Russian ramjet Bvraam Rvv AE -PD is still undergoing evaluations meanwhile about chinese they may be developing their own but no new news about SD 10B yet well god knows what the status of ramjet version pl21

More importantly, Rafale will have the most inferior version of the Meteor missile, with only a uni-directional datalink capability while other operators will have two.

ok Wiki did also said that
Alternatively, the Meteor can be fired without using mid-course update, allowing the Rafale to immediately turn away to deny the enemy aircraft any firing possibility. Like with a "Fire and forget" AASM or MICA or Exocet missile
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_6.pdf

You forgot about R-27ET. 130 Km. In service.
New Russian developments are currently unknown.

Btw, the MICA IR costs nearly $3Million a piece.

yes i forgot or deliberately missed u can take it both ways
well R 27 ET is technically inferior to MICA(seeker, manuverabilty) apart from it's range BTW IR guided missiles are not effective at such long range(low Kill probabilty)but within 50km are the effective range for such missiles(high Kill probabilty) compare to EM guided missiles
many reasons can be cited for it though it would turn out to be off topic

Yes MICA ir may be costly but not costly than it's target

KH-55 or AS-15 Krypton. 3000 Km range.

The Chinese have developed their own version called CJ-10, 2000+ Km.

India will field Nirbhay with 1500 Km range.

Russians wont sell such missiles to china & CJ 10 air launched version for jets is yet to be built

& nirbhay is 700km in range i think ( correct me if i am wrong)

U should understand the stealthiness of the cruise missile true the missiles u mentioned may be having more range but stealth & accuracy is more important

The Chinese recently showed of their pseudo hypersonic YJ-12 missile.

true
but it's not nuke capable but for anti/ship & anti radar purpose
still under development

Unlike France, most other countries simply use missiles for the same purpose. For extended range LGBs, glide bombs are being developed by everybody.
The centimeter version is very, very expensive.

Su-35 is also capable of omnirole missions. As in targeting air and ground targets at once.

Rafale has already used cheaper GBU16 in MALI

& Hammer is costly but is effective and it's accuracy is highly superior & can be cued by SPECTRA alone

SU 35 can destroy 6 targets at once i didnt heard that

The Chinese won't be concerned with this.

that depends upon what would we install on our rafale plane they would be concerned

SU 30 mki is rumoured to have python 4 though no accurate proof to prove it .

Negative. IAF is looking to induct Taurus or Storm Shadow on MKIs. The only reason why we don't have foreign weapons on MKI is because the Russian weapons themselves are more than enough.

i meant for SU 35 , not MKI yes MKI case is different

This won't explain how it will survive against the Su-35.

it can be stated through leaked evaluation report how better it performed than it other european competitors in air poilicing & defensive counter air missions which also
boasts to take down Su 35

I don't think IAF Rafales will have uprated M88s anytime soon. Maybe after 2025.

why do u think so ???? even if the contract hasnot been signed yet
well yes if u have a crystal ball which can see future

Even Su-35 can do it.

oh really!!
then why dont u say MIG 21 can also do it ,there is no infarction for bluffing

This is Rafale F4, not the version India will be getting. No point in discussing a China vs UAE scenario.

u can know everything in future Right!! even after 2017 what would happen even if the deal has nt been signed yet

Not a big deal.

Hmm really!

R 73 /MICA IR sensors have FPA seekers which are less resistant to coventional flares they can be countered by DIRCM only
even R-74 is coming next

This is a possibility as an MLU after 2025. IAF may not even opt for it. Something like this may already be on offer for the Su-35 today. Anyway Rafale's radar is restricted to a 120degree view, while Su-35 can manage 240 degrees. Add a tail radar and it will be a 360 degree capability. The tail radar may very well be superior to Rafale's RBE-2AA to boot.

same old astrological predictions

anyways Rafale's spectra would provide 360 degree situation awareness even if it's radar fail to do

Also, we have to base this Su-35 vs Rafale scenario on more Chinese orders. 24 aircraft won't be a threat. 200 will.

hmm quite correct on number's ground though
But if they are buying they must be having something in their mind may be Reverse engineering / or future more order

Rafale should be equivalent to the MKI, inferior, if we add TVC in certain maneuvers. Su-35 should surpass the MKI.

manuveurabilty is the only ground where both are evenly matched Yes TVC factor can be added i have pointed that in my thread also but Rafale's close coupled canard configuration + low wing loading + amazing turn rate can give SU 35 a run for money

BTW thrust vector engine are known to be in french future plans but no authencity on it

Post stall maneuvering has F-22 pilots mesmerized too. Funny how only air forces with TVC like TVC while the ones without TVC simply criticize it.

Post stall maneuverability is used to get a missile shot in.

Wow!!

so called mesmerizing f22 pilots with their TVC f22's failed to mesmerize the poor TVC less Rafale pilots in the UAE during ATLC courses

Well, let me put it in another way.

According to LM, all western 4th gen aircraft (including Rafale) are inferior in every way to the F-35. However if the Su-35 takes out AWACS and tankers, the Su-35 will defeat the F-35.

blaaaah!!!


I wonder why canadian & dutch didnt notice it
even turkey should also notice it

Su-35 has an edge in both BVR and WVR.

Hmm
ok let me put in another way
su 35 may be having an edge in WVR but su 35 having an edge in BVR warfare yes it can only happen only in one area (i.e)in your wet dreams

as no matter how hi fi it's radar may be by that time it engages Rafale with it's BVRAAM ,it's A$$ would be toasted by Meteor which shall be cued by SPECTRA alone

GOT IT NOW BEAT IT

I am just pointing out that in terms of air to air capability, the Su-35 is a superior aircraft compared to Rafale.

If we are to have any realistic chance at fighting off a Su-35 threat in the interim, it has to be upgraded MKIs.

Your pointing is like shooting arrows in dark or shooting with your eyes closed
THank god ur not IAF chief or else u would have scrapped the MMRCA deal right now













































I

 

[Drsomnath999]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

=============================

Only & Perhaps Only Member @Drsomnath999 have the ability to dissect each and every part of Rafale and SU-35 and compare them, Result would be clear to all..
..

No thats wrong

as this Dr Somnath 999
is just a fanboy who has swallowed the french marketting B.S & vomiting it here in this forum

& IAF has taken bribe to chose rafale which took more than 7 years for evaluation to choose

Ch@nky Su 35 would hammer rafale in BVR & WVR as stated by some intelligient members

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

Welcome ....

On Serious note : Well the one who use such language is an indication to his frustration and no longer can be credited..

Carry on..

No thats wrong

as this Dr Somnath 999
is just a fanboy who has swallowed the french marketting B.S & vomiting it here in this forum

& IAF has taken bribe to chose rafale which took more than 7 years for evaluation to choose

Ch@nky Su 35 would hammer rafale in BVR & WVR as stated by some intelligient members

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

when did they said that ???

Once in an article and many times in person.

Yes BARS has LPI modes but it's LPI mode is inferior when compare to the LPI efficiency of AESA radars

No doubt. Just saying LPI is not something that only AESAs have.

it can also track & engage 8 targets simultaneosly with MICA in future may be with meteor

In combat LPI & anti jammiing radar would have the upperhand

You are reading too much in to the EW capabilities of Rafale.

Khibiny M is also not an ordinary EW suite but apart from 4 points which i mention in thread their is another point which i have nt mentioned becoz one can challenge it as a myth
ie ACTIVE CANCELLATION tech

Active cancellation is something everybody is working on.

This is something for sound waves and is well known.
Active noise control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stuffs been since the 60s, but nobody has gotten it to work since nobody is able to predict wave behavior that may come in the future.

Active cancellation works only if the system is superior to the target system.

& cueing an anti-radiation missile can be done by any 4th gen TOM ,DICK & Harry jet but cueing an active radar guided missile/ precision guided mission is a different
thing which Spectra & F 22's ALR -94 is capable of

Another thing you are reading too much into. This is stuff the Russians have also done in the 80s.

In fact the R-27 was built for passive cueing, IR. Later both R-27P and R-77 models started using passive cueing ability using RWR.

It is just that even the F-22 prefers to use active cueing even if it fighting old F-15s. Simply because the result is nearly guaranteed, unlike passive cueing.

of course it's a big deal , It would replace Ga As modules & is far more efficient
What koreans are doing is not related to Su 35 .

The point is everybody is working on using GaN systems. LRDE is planning on using GaN systems as the next evolution for MKIs new EW suite.

No a superior system core is vital for every electronic operation related to a plane just look at F22 / F35 planes system core very crucial for target interpretaion from all sensors(RADARS,ESM), situational awareness & sensor fusion

I have been doing some checking around, found that the Su-35 also has CIPs. So Rafale, F-22 and F-35 are not the only ones.

Russian ramjet Bvraam Rvv AE -PD is still undergoing evaluations meanwhile about chinese they may be developing their own but no new news about SD 10B yet well god knows what the status of ramjet version pl21

No, we won't know about the development status of Russian and Chinese weapons until they are put into service. This is different from western countries and even India where we have parliamentary reports and free media.

RVV-AE PD was cancelled in 1999. Most probably there's a new program today.

ok Wiki did also said that
Alternatively, the Meteor can be fired without using mid-course update, allowing the Rafale to immediately turn away to deny the enemy aircraft any firing possibility. Like with a "Fire and forget" AASM or MICA or Exocet missile

That's nonsense. Mid course updates are very very necessary if you want to engage something like Su-35. You lose track and the aircraft will be in an entirely different location and the missile will be elsewhere. Heck, Rafale loses first shot and it will die for sure.

well R 27 ET is technically inferior to MICA(seeker, manuverabilty) apart from it's range BTW IR guided missiles are not effective at such long range(low Kill probabilty)but within 50km are the effective range for such missiles(high Kill probabilty) compare to EM guided missiles
many reasons can be cited for it though it would turn out to be off topic

R-27 is fast, really fast. Whil MICA has the seeker advantage, R-27 can close in faster and has a greater NEZ when purely range is considered.

Russians wont sell such missiles to china & CJ 10 air launched version for jets is yet to be built

CJ-10 is not a fighter version, but there could be some. Development now means inducted by the time we have Rafale and they have Su-35.

& nirbhay is 700km in range i think ( correct me if i am wrong)

Yes, the first tranche. Not the air version.

U should understand the stealthiness of the cruise missile true the missiles u mentioned may be having more range but stealth & accuracy is more important

KH-55, Nirbhay, Tomahawk etc are very stealthy missiles.

true
but it's not nuke capable but for anti/ship & anti radar purpose
still under development

Not necessary. YJ-12 is just one variant that we are seeing out of a family of missiles. The Russians had the same.

Even if it is under development, it will be in service by the time we have Rafales.

SU 35 can destroy 6 targets at once i didnt heard that

Su-35 isn't as well rigged as Rafale when it comes to ground attack. It is only meant to track 4 targets and engage 2. Anyway this is plenty for its mission, since it is not always that 6 targets present itself at once.

SU 30 mki is rumoured to have python 4 though no accurate proof to prove it .

We had ordered 100 Python 4s a few years ago. Not enough for the fleet, but something is cooking.

it can be stated through leaked evaluation report how better it performed than it other european competitors in air poilicing & defensive counter air missions which also
boasts to take down Su 35

The foreign evaluations leaked to date don't mention anything about taking down Su-35s.

Let me give you two nice little examples when Flankers participated with western aircraft in the competition.

In Malaysia, the MKI beat the SH by a very healthy margin.

In Algeria, MKI beat Rafale. More to do with costs and commonality.

why do u think so ???? even if the contract hasnot been signed yet
well yes if u have a crystal ball which can see future

Nothing to do with the future. IAF has opted for M88-4Es, not M88-3. These are 75KN engines.

oh really!!
then why dont u say MIG 21 can also do it ,there is no infarction for bluffing

Only a datalink is required. The Chinese have their own datalinks and they will have stealthy UCAVs a decade before France to boot.

u can know everything in future Right!! even after 2017 what would happen even if the deal has nt been signed yet

The Rafale deal isn't for the F4. It is for the F3+, that comes with AESA and the stuff that we know of. F4 is only a paper design, IAF won't go for paper designs. Also, as of today there is no 90KN M88.

According to Dassault, at least if we look at the UAE deal, Rafale F4 would take 5 years for IOC after the deal is signed. In 2009 they were thinking of getting the F4 flying in 2014. Now it is already 2013 and the project hasn't even started. Once the UAE deal is signed this year (most probably) the best we can hope for Rafale F4 is sometime around 2017-18. That's too late for us. Especially considering UAE will have the first right to buy the F4s. Maybe we can opt for something like 40 F4s outside the contract for 126+63 Rafale F3+. But all of this is possible only after 2025. Also I gave the date of 2025 because it would be 10 years since the induction of the first Rafale in IAF and we would start negotiating for MLUs only after 2025. The same as MKIs.

Hmm really!

R 73 /MICA IR sensors have FPA seekers which are less resistant to coventional flares they can be countered by DIRCM only
even R-74 is coming next

R-73 and R-74 don't have FPA seekers. Only MICA and all other western missiles do.

Even our Mig-27s are equipped with DIRCM. Actually IAF has already initiated the program for equipping every one of our aircraft, including helicopters with DIRCM. Primarily meant to beat MANPADS.

Air to air missiles cannot use DIRCM. There is not enough time.

same old astrological predictions

anyways Rafale's spectra would provide 360 degree situation awareness even if it's radar fail to do

IAF has opted for Rafale F3+. Period. With M88-4E engines. Period.

You are relying too much on Spectra.

manuveurabilty is the only ground where both are evenly matched Yes TVC factor can be added i have pointed that in my thread also but Rafale's close coupled canard configuration + low wing loading + amazing turn rate can give SU 35 a run for money

Su-35 far exceeds Rafales flight characteristics. MKIs turn rate exceeds Rafales because of TVC.

BTW thrust vector engine are known to be in french future plans but no authencity on it

Currently there are no plans. M88-3 was offered by SAFRAN group along with TVC, but ALA rejected it. Let's see what happens after UAE deal is signed. UAE is the only country planning on operating Rafale F4s as of today. Kuwait may follow suit.

Wow!!
so called mesmerizing f22 pilots with their TVC f22's failed to mesmerize the poor TVC less Rafale pilots in the UAE during ATLC courses

Yes, F-22s scored draws and a kill while not having HMS or off bore sight missiles. Unlike Rafale which is equipped with a 2.5th generation HMS + MICA IR.

Hmm
ok let me put in another way
su 35 may be having an edge in WVR but su 35 having an edge in BVR warfare yes it can only happen only in one area (i.e)in your wet dreams

as no matter how hi fi it's radar may be by that time it engages Rafale with it's BVRAAM ,it's A$$ would be toasted by Meteor which shall be cued by SPECTRA alone

GOT IT NOW BEAT IT

You time and time again prove that you are nothing but an idiot.

You still don't understand that radar is everything. Even for a gun kill you need radar.

 

[vishwaprasad]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

My money definitely on Rafale...French have always given proven quality weapons to the world. Mirage F1 could shot down F-14 in Iran-Iraq war and it was Mirage 2000 which shot down F-16. We are yet to see any Russian 4th Generation fighter scoring kill over single serious western fighter till date...

There is a reason IAF one of the most professional air force selected the French beauty after it met with 640+ technical parameters and in spite of its cost it is today under final negotiations....If Flanker was at that level then IAF would have simply added more Flankers and went ahead with super Flanker program which would have been any way cheaper. Some members here are supporting Sukhoi-35 just because of the soft corner in heart as it is from Flanker family which is in service of IAF and nothing else. Flanker no doubt deadly against F-16, M2Ks but Rafale or Typhoon are any day technically ahead of them...

 

[ice berg]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

It is not clearly to me why some fanboys will insist comparing a heavy class air superiority fighter Su-35 to a medium class multirole Rafale.

They are different classes and designed to do different things. When shit hits the fans, IA is gonna send in MKIs, not Rafale to engange possible Su-35s.

But do carry on with the hmmm "discussion", boys.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

If PLAAF start thinking like you then they are already doomed ..

It is not clearly to me why some fanboys will insist comparing a heavy class air superiority fighter Su-35 to a medium class multirole Rafale.

 

[vishwaprasad]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

It is not clearly to me why some fanboys will insist comparing a heavy class air superiority fighter Su-35 to a medium class multirole Rafale.

They are different classes and designed to do different things. When shit hits the fans, IA is gonna send in MKIs, not Rafale to engange possible Su-35s.

But do carry on with the hmmm "discussion", boys.

Now this is the most stupid comment I always hear not from only you but from many our own members as well...heavy fighter vs medium fighter, so they should not fight against each other or they will not be used against each other...

Fighters will be sent as per their availability in nearby area and situation at that time. It is not like if India picks up PLAAF Su-35 raid coming on radar and it will wait for her Flankers to reach that area even if we assume Rafale base is comparatively closer than MKI base. India will scramble even M2K or Fulcrums if their base is closer where the raid is likely to be. And please when will we all stop cutting this crap that medium fighters by default will be defeated by heavy fighters?? US-Isreal both have excellent record of kills and successes by using light weight single engined F-16...for that matter M2K too...

Is IAF stupid that after evaluating fighters on 640+ technical parameters it zeroed on Rafale which will be useless against heavy air superiority fighters??? So in those 640+ parameters aspects like air superiority were missing?? after all those tests and evaluations IAF is stupid to come up with just a ground attack fighter which is JUST A REPLACEMENT FOR MIG 27?? 100 million+ dollar bird is selected and for what? just to keep it away from heavy air superiority fighters??? Sorry to disappoint you but IAF is not that stupid...

Su-35 will be lucky if it does not face Rafale otherwise it will be taken out there for lunch by those Rafales....

 

[ice berg]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

Now this is the most stupid comment I always hear not from only you but from many our own members as well...heavy fighter vs medium fighter, so they should not fight against each other or they will not be used against each other...

Darn, that is a dumb comment. How can it be the most stupid comment if you are hearing it all the time? Does basic logic escape your?
And who the f. say that heavy fight should not fight against each other? I said clearly;"insist comparing a heavy class air superiority fighter Su-35 to a medium class multirole Rafale." Do look up what "comparing" means .

Fighters will be sent as per their availability in nearby area and situation at that time.

No, you silly goose, fighters will be send as per their role in the overall doctrine. You dont send in a multirole when an air superiority jet can do it better.

It is not like if India picks up PLAAF Su-35 raid coming on radar and it will wait for her Flankers to reach that area even if we assume Rafale base is comparatively closer than MKI base. India will scramble even M2K or Fulcrums if their base is closer where the raid is likely to be. And please when will we all stop cutting this crap that medium fighters by default will be defeated by heavy fighters?? US-Isreal both have excellent record of kills and successes by using light weight single engined F-16...for that matter M2K too...

Darn, that is dumb, Why the f. will PLAAF send in Su-35 into indian air space?

Is IAF stupid that after evaluating fighters on 640+ technical parameters it zeroed on Rafale which will be useless against heavy air superiority fighters??? So in those 640+ parameters aspects like air superiority were missing?? after all those tests and evaluations IAF is stupid to come up with just a ground attack fighter which is JUST A REPLACEMENT FOR MIG 27?? 100 million+ dollar bird is selected and for what? just to keep it away from heavy air superiority fighters??? Sorry to disappoint you but IAF is not that stupid...

Sorry to break it down to you, kid, but it was MMRCA, look up what that stands for. IAF didnt envision it to take down the likes of MKIs, and Su-35s.

Su-35 will be lucky if it does not face Rafale otherwise it will be taken out there for lunch by those Rafales....

Like I said, keep up the "discussion " of how a medium fighter will eat heavy air superiority fighter for lunch. Brought to you by indian fanboys like you.

 

[ice berg]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

If PLAAF start thinking like you then they are already doomed ..

I expect them to have better things to do than comparing a medium multirole vs a heavy air superiority jet on 1 vs 1 basis.

Is that what IAF spend their time doing?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

IAF and PLAAF is not cup of your tea ..

Is that what IAF spend their time doing?

 

[arya]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

well as per my source we are thinking on some option . Mmrc may signed in next month end .

Well some secret deal with Russia to counter su35 .

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra

Su-35 was designed and inducted 10 years after Rafale was inducted.

The RCS difference is negligible and moot. With external weapons + EFTs to boot, both aircraft will be detected at their maximum ranges.

According to Yefim Gordon, the Su-35 is not a major upgrade on the airframe, which is obvious for all to see. But the engine is upgraded, which we all know of. The engine is upgraded to the point where the T/W during take off is greater than the F-22s. Overall the T/W of Su-35 and Rafale should be very similar.

On paper, the Su-27 was designed to exceed the performance of the Eagle, which it did. On paper, the Rafale was designed to exceed the performance of the Su-27, which it did. On paper, the MKI was designed to exceed the Su-27 with the use of canards and TVC, which it did. Overall, the MKI has a lesser STR than Rafale, but exceeds the Rafale when it comes to ITR because of the TVC. But the MKI has lesser T/W compared to Rafale and hence an inferior climb rate. The Su-35 exceeds the performance parameters of the MKI in addition to exceeding the MKI's TVC performance.

If you want an overly simplistic explanation. Su-27 was designed to counter Eagle. Typhoon/Rafale were designed to counter Su-27. Su-35 was designed to counter Typhoon/Rafale. All they did was reduce the aircraft's RCS significantly, increase performance and pack it with a very powerful radar along with a centralized computer system.

In order to compare just look at dates for first flight.

Eagle - 1972
Flanker - 1977
Rafale - 1986
Typhoon - 1994
Su-35 - 2008

Avionics wise, Su-35 is also as capable as Rafale. Both in terms of active and passive detection capabilities. The only difference is Rafale's capabilities have been well advertised as compared to Su-35 where the advertisement of capabilities is starting only now.

Finally, size. Size provides extra space for fuel and a greater volume for avionics. Hence why the Flanker is a heavy aircraft while Rafale is a medium aircraft.

The difference is quite significant because the planned systems for MKI and other Flankers is far more robust than what Dassault has planned. In India, we are already working on Spectra level systems for MKI and other birds, AESA EW arrays, IMA (integrated modular avionics - sensor fusion) architecture. Even LCA Mk2 will have IMA and PESA arrays for EW.

Su-35 already comes with IMA. Of course, the Chinese could develop their own Spectra level system considering they are already mass producing AESAs for J-10s today. Spectra is overrated anyway. It is a defensive suite, not a full fledged electronic attack suite. But Rafale can carry pods nevertheless.