Re: Why Su-35 would not pose any serious security threat to India's Ra
1) SURVIVABILITY ( which is most important due to less RCS ,less IR signature & spectra EW suite)
what would one do with a plane like flanker derivatives with a bigger rcs & less stealthy which cant survive in today' s high tech EW age with advanced SAMs ,awacs & enemy aesa enabled fighter to face ,even if it may be carrying 100 missiles ,having 10000km range & having 1000km detection range PESA radar which lacks LPI/can be jammed & 1000kn engine with higher IR signature & also heavy maintenance prone
LPI was invented after WW1, made possible before WW2. So enough with the LPI nonsense.
The French did not claim superior situational awareness against Bars. In fact, they said the MKI had better situational awareness. Irbis-E is a much superior radar compared to Bars. Bars has LPI modes. Irbis is capable of multifunction modes too, like RBE-2
2)5TH GEN AVIONICS & SENSOR SYSTEM
a) rafale'S FSO is far better than Su 35's OLS-35 IRST (Max Detection Range: 90 kilometer)in detection range fso detection range:130 km)
Seeker gets on track
OLS-35
also FSO NG is upcoming next
I suppose.
b)AREOS RECO NG
they dont have anything comparable to it
IAF uses the Israeli EL/M 2060P for MKIs.
ELTA's Pod SAR - ELM-2060P - YouTube
The Russians and Chinese have SAR pods too.
The Russians are busy in licensing and deriving their own versions from French pods. Meaning Russia has contracted for Damocles. Apart from that, they have also purchased Matis for use in the SAPSAN-E TI pods.
Apart from that they have also been using photographic imaging pods since a long time. Su-34 carries the AP-403 and AP-404 pods and newer pods are in development.
c)RBE 2 AESA RADAR
ADV: i) LPI
ii) less prone to electronic jamming
iii) more target scanning 40 targets
RBE-2AA's capabilities against number of targets is yet unknown. RBE-2 PESA is 40 targets shown on screen upon detection, 24 targets tracked and 4 engaged with datalinks.
Irbis-E can track 30 targets, engage 8 with datalinks. That's a huge difference. RBE-2AA should have a much higher TWS capability and equivalent engagement capability.
d) SPECTRA ew suite with ELINT/SIGNIT capabilty
SU 35 also has upgraded ew suite but Spectra has some extra features which make it far too superior compared to Russian self protection suite L175M Khibiny-M electronic-warfare self-defense system on SU-35
I would agree. But most air superiority aircraft don't use ECM for air to air missions due to the amount of information thrown away in a high threat environment. That's why both EF and F-22 still do not have internal ECM suites. SIGINT capability exists on all aircraft. The Chinese may use their own systems.
also Spectra NG is already on the development with upgraded GaN modules with far more range
Not a big deal. The Koreans are planning a GaN module based radar for their KF-X program.
f)Sensor fusion
rafale's awesome speciality is it's faster 5th gen system core processor which integrates data & information at much faster
rate than it's russian Su 35 competitor
An excellent capability to have for multirole aircraft. It doesn't seem like Su-35 has a CIP. But it doesn't look like Su-35 needs it as an air superiority fighter rather than a multirole aircraft.
3)MUCH SUPERIOR ARMAMENTS
BVRAAMs
a)Meteor BVRAAM which is world's 1st operational ramjet powered missile which has world's longest No escape zone missile .Russia's have yet to field anything comparable to it though they are developing.
Subjective since we do not know how far the Chinese have progressed. The Russians had RAMJET air to air missiles since the early 90s. They first showed it off in 1992 in an air show. As of today we still do not know of the status of the missile or its future derivatives. As a matter of fact the RVV-AE-PD was an export version of the missile.
The Chinese have their own development called the PL-21 and it is not clear if they merely bought "one" of the Russian missiles in development
More importantly, Rafale will have the most inferior version of the Meteor missile, with only a uni-directional datalink capability while other operators will have two.
b)MICA IR bvraam is one of the longest range IR guided missile till date now though Russian R 73 missile is very good missile but it lacks range of Mica IR which is more critical
You forgot about R-27ET. 130 Km. In service.
New Russian developments are currently unknown.
Btw, the MICA IR costs nearly $3Million a piece.
AIR TO GROUND MISSILES
a) SCALP - it is a stealthy air launched cruise missile with superior guidance system
whats different about SCALP/storm shadow missile that makes it more stealthy than russian ALCM .?
KH-55 or AS-15 Krypton. 3000 Km range.
The Chinese have developed their own version called CJ-10, 2000+ Km.
India will field Nirbhay with 1500 Km range.
b)ASMP {Air-Sol Moyenne Portée}
it is french's strategic air launched cruise missile with supersonic speed with range of 500km .Russian SU 35 dont have any thing comparable to it as Klub is subsonic /Yakhont air launched is still in development but it lacks range .
The Chinese recently showed of their pseudo hypersonic YJ-12 missile.
c)HAMMER missile
meanwhile the russian KAB 500 /1000/ have inferior CEP(7m) & range compare to hammer
Incorrect comparison. There are various versions of the AASM. There are decameter versions and a centimeter version for the AASM.
Unlike France, most other countries simply use missiles for the same purpose. For extended range LGBs, glide bombs are being developed by everybody.
The centimeter version is very, very expensive.
Su-35 is also capable of omnirole missions. As in targeting air and ground targets at once.
III) foreign made weapons
The Chinese won't be concerned with this.
Meanwhile Russians dont want to install foreign made weapons in their planes for security reasons
Negative. IAF is looking to induct Taurus or Storm Shadow on MKIs. The only reason why we don't have foreign weapons on MKI is because the Russian weapons themselves are more than enough.
4)BETTER MULTI ROLE CAPABLE FIGHTER
both SU 35 & Rafale have been promoted as a multi role fighter but facts supports rafale that it is indeed a much better multi role fighter
Rafale would be a better multirole platform.
Rafale is undisputedly a more mature & proven multirole fighter than Su 35
This won't explain how it will survive against the Su-35.
a) Uprated M 88 engine may be with thrust vectoring
It may only match Su-35s T/W level.
I don't think IAF Rafales will have uprated M88s anytime soon. Maybe after 2025.
c)Rafale pilots can control & order UCAVS like (neuron) to strike targets, from rafale only
Even Su-35 can do it.
d)RCS improvements like CFT , enclosed weapon pods ,redesigned air intake for higher thrust engines
This is Rafale F4, not the version India will be getting. No point in discussing a China vs UAE scenario.
e)DIRCM(Directional based Infra Red countermeasures) compatible DDM NG
Not a big deal.
f) Conformal radar antenna Array located all around the airframe exactly like PAK-FA in wings & rear end
Rafale News: Rafale F3-O4T and beyond
This is a possibility as an MLU after 2025. IAF may not even opt for it. Something like this may already be on offer for the Su-35 today. Anyway Rafale's radar is restricted to a 120degree view, while Su-35 can manage 240 degrees. Add a tail radar and it will be a 360 degree capability. The tail radar may very well be superior to Rafale's RBE-2AA to boot.
Meanwhile Su 35 's future upgrades depends upon it's manufacturing order alone whether it is from Russian airforce /or from
export customers as recently 30-40 planes have been ordered from Russian airforce & Venezuela is known to be 1st export customer though the deal hasnt been signed yet.
Russia has ordered 48. They will most probably order another 48 for delivery after 2015.
Also, we have to base this Su-35 vs Rafale scenario on more Chinese orders. 24 aircraft won't be a threat. 200 will.
6)MANEUVERABILITY
Well both fighters known to have supermanuveurabilty but SU 35 has known to have a an extra adavantage of TVC But still Rafale has proven in various aerial wargames it's manuveurablity skills .
Rafale should be equivalent to the MKI, inferior, if we add TVC in certain maneuvers. Su-35 should surpass the MKI.
Though Su 35 has mesmerized everyone with it's awesome manuveurabilty in air shows but post stall manuveurabilty looks good only in airshows ,but in combat u need amazing turn rate without losing air speed much which rafale boasts to have .
Post stall maneuvering has F-22 pilots mesmerized too. Funny how only air forces
with TVC like TVC while the ones
without TVC simply criticize it.
Post stall maneuverability is used to get a missile shot in.
CONCLUSION
Well Su 35 is a formidable fighter no doubt about it ,but rafale's advantages over Su 35 gives Rafale an edge in BVR warfare but in within VBR warfare Su 35 armed with R 73 missiles & TVC installled engines can give a tough fight to the Rafale.
Well, let me put it in another way.
According to LM, all western 4th gen aircraft (including Rafale) are inferior in every way to the F-35. However if the Su-35 takes out AWACS and tankers, the Su-35 will defeat the F-35.
Su-35 has an edge in both BVR and WVR.
1)Indian Super su 30 mki would have a cutting edge Zhuk-AE AESA radar meanwhile Irbis E has a PESA radar & Aesa is always technically superior to a PESA radar though it is expensive
Bars AESA seems more likely. If we are to believe NIIP's chief.
c) New EW suite equivalent to Su 35's EW suite
Nope. MKI will have a DARE designed, BEL made EW suite. It will be AESA and will probably be equivalent or superior to Spectra. Primarily due to size and power requirements. Yes, MKI will also have a CIP, like Rafale.
d) Advanced Stealth characteristics ( more composites / better Ram coating)
This is the unknown factor with regards to both MKI and Su-35.
Mig-29s RAM treatment reduced it's RCS by 5 times in a small scale upgrade. Mig-21 Bison saw a 15 times RCS reduction. MKI??? we simply don't know. All we know is there will be large scale reduction in RCS.
3)The problem with Flanker derivatives is it's high RCS no matter how they upgrade it .The biggest drawback of flanker derivatives is it's Straight air intake design as it is a big blunder for stealth as they still havent installed a radar blocker in it's engine in SU 35 .So stealth wise both Su 35 & Super Su 30 are going to even & inferior to western 4.5 gen fighters counter part no matter how they boast of reduced RCS.So no point of buying SU 35 rather than why not upgrading Su 30 mki .
We do not yet know what measures will be taken.
4)Russian Su 35 still would have some advantages in performance aspect like higher thrust engines, more range & higher T/W ratio but those advantages are not decisive nor overwhelming in comparision to Super su 30
Su-35's performance is quite significant. We are talking about 4 tonnes of additional thrust.
I am not making a case for us to buy Su-35s. I am vehemently opposed to buy Su-35s when we have FGFA coming up. I am just pointing out that in terms of air to air capability, the Su-35 is a superior aircraft compared to Rafale.
If we are to have any realistic chance at fighting off a Su-35 threat in the interim, it has to be upgraded MKIs.
still haappy tat mynthread created an awarness on chinese 35s ...jai hind bhai
