Sukhoi Su 30MKI

Chandragupt Maurya

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Bro, all of us love the Tejas but let not our love cloud reality.
The Tejas mk1 version was visualised as a replacement for the Mig-21 and our good experience with the small Gnat shaped our thinking to a certain extent.

The Rafales is a much bigger and heavier twin engine plane.
Comparing them is like comparing oranges and apples. It is also not fair to the Tejas mk1. The Tejas mk1 has met its expectations to a very large extent and surpasses the Mig21. So it is a success. Let us not degrade its success by expecting it to match a twin engine medium heavy fighter.

We know you mean well but even the far bigger Tejas mk2 will have a hard time equalling the Rafale. Our proposed twin engine Omni Role Combat Aircraft based on the TEDBF will be in the same class as the Rafale.

One cardinal truth we must not overlook is that a single engine fighter is less reliable than a twin engine fighter. The assumption being that even if one engine fails in a twin engine fighter the remaining working engine can enable the fighter to return to base for a safe landing. There are many other advantages of a twin engine heavier fighter as increased payload capability, more on board power for use etc

Both single engine and twin engine planes have their own role to play and one cannot replace the other.
I am not saying That Tejas is bigger or Heavier than Rafales
Both are different aircrafts meant for different purpose (Tejas is made for point defence)
but i am asking what exceptional capabilities does Rafales have which Tejas doesn’t have ?
Because Tejas also has AESA Radars, quadriplex digital fly by wire system Israeli jamming pods etc
 

vishnugupt

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All eras. Compared to the pakis, we got a shitty deal. If you’re going to give me an example of the mig29 locking on to f16’s during Kargil, please don’t. That was an incident that happened because we got a superior missiles from the Russians.
As a platform, F16 has been superior to sukhois or m in terms of capabilities and technology. The reason IAF was able to maintain superiority is because of all kinds of expensive Israeli mods which was based on western platforms.
For the first time ever, the rafale is offered as a complete package. Top notch EW systems, ‘true’ omnirole capabilities, terrain hugging modes, superb bvr capabilities. We will never get something with this much capabilities from the Russians because they don’t have anything like it. This is why there should be more orders for the rafale. IN this process, AMCA should also borrow heavily from the rafale. Could you please be more logical and prove how India had superior planes compared to its neighbors ever?

integration of Brahmos to sukhoi is a silver bullet. You should also know that the integration of rafale to Brahmos is also possible. Very much so. Weather they do it or not is a political call.
IAF Canberra was better than Paki Sebre during 1965 war.
Mig 21 was better than F-104 Starfighter in 1971.
MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 far better than primitive F-16 ( Infact F-16 is only modern fighter of PAF even today ) till year 2000
Su-30MKI is Baap of F-16 after 2000 till today.
Regarding China, IAF always have modern and technological advance jets up to year 2000.
Only a stupid can say IAF has inferior jets compare to its adversaries.
Actually it's IAF tactics which are grossly faulty and rudimentary.
By the what Israeli have given you so that you are feeling so powerful?? Why Israeli are faltering in Syria against Russia??
What exactly we have borrowed for AMCA from Rafale?? Absolutely nothing.

What has Rafales got which Tejas doesn’t have apart from Meteors ?
If we go by your logic then above said statement by @Chandragupt Maurya also hold its ground.
 
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Chandragupt Maurya

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IAF Canberra was better than Paki Sebre during 1965 war.
Mig 21 was better than F-104 Starfighter in 1971.
MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 far better than primitive F-16 ( Infact F-16 is only modern fighter of PAF even today ) till year 2000
Su-30MKI is Baap of F-16 after 2000 till today.
Regarding China, IAF always have modern and technological advance jets up to year 2000.
Only a stupid can say IAF has inferior jets compare to its adversaries.
Actually it's IAF tactics which are grossly faulty and rudimentary.
By the what Israeli have given you so that you are feeling so powerful?? Why Israeli are faltering in Syria against Russia??
What exactly we have borrowed for AMCA from Rafale?? Absolutely nothing.


If we go by your logic then above said statement also hold its ground.
Rafales are far better than our current Su30mki fleet
Su30mki doesn’t even have the AESA Radar beside that
engines of su30mki are also very maintenance heavy
Su30mki has Israeli jammers mated with Russian Radars which itself is a problem as they interfere with each other
But Tejas has every thing what any modern 4th generation aircraft can have
 

johnq

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Rafales are far better than our current Su30mki fleet
Su30mki doesn’t even have the AESA Radar beside that
engines of su30mki are also very maintenance heavy
Su30mki has Israeli jammers mated with Russian Radars which itself is a problem as they interfere with each other
But Tejas has every thing what any modern 4th generation aircraft can have
The Su-30MKI's radar has been upgraded to the point of being a hybrid PESA/AESA radar. Besides it's not about AESA or PESA, it's what your radar computer does with it. The Chinese are behind in radar technology, which is why they imported Russian Su-35 to copy its radar tech. Thankfully the Russians only gave them a severely downgraded version.
The jammer radar interference problem has been solved on the Su-30MKI with new digital RWR and radar computer updates, so its jammers are now fully integrated, especially the new DRDO AESA ones. They also did a lot of work to improve the maintenance of the Su-30MKI and its engines under Parrikar, so those issues have been addressed.
 

LDev

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The Su-30MKI's radar has been upgraded to the point of being a hybrid PESA/AESA radar. Besides it's not about AESA or PESA, it's what your radar computer does with it. The Chinese are behind in radar technology, which is why they imported Russian Su-35 to copy its radar tech. Thankfully the Russians only gave them a severely downgraded version.
The jammer radar interference problem has been solved on the Su-30MKI with new digital RWR and radar computer updates, so its jammers are now fully integrated, especially the new DRDO AESA ones. They also did a lot of work to improve the maintenance of the Su-30MKI and its engines under Parrikar, so those issues have been addressed.
The Chinese do not require Russian hand holding in radar technology, unless their AESA radars turn out to be a flop i.e. they are already fielding early examples of their AESA radars while the Russians are still on PESA. The area that the Chinese need help is engine technology. Actually they wanted to buy just the AL-41 F1-S engines from Russia and use those engines to power their J-20 fighter,and then copy the engine to improve the WS-15 engine effort to be used in the J-20. But the Russians refused to sell just the engines (like they do the RD-93 for the JF-17) and so China was forced to buy 24 SU-35s and maybe they are negotiating to buy 24 more, so they can get their hands on the engines which is what they really want.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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The Chinese do not require Russian hand holding in radar technology, unless their AESA radars turn out to be a flop i.e. they are already fielding early examples of their AESA radars while the Russians are still on PESA. The area that the Chinese need help is engine technology. Actually they wanted to buy just the AL-41 F1-S engines from Russia and use those engines to power their J-20 fighter,and then copy the engine to improve the WS-15 engine effort to be used in the J-20. But the Russians refused to sell just the engines (like they do the RD-93 for the JF-17) and so China was forced to buy 24 SU-35s and maybe they are negotiating to buy 24 more, so they can get their hands on the engines which is what they really want.
Only Tejas and Rafales have AESA Radars in our inventory Jaguars also have it but they’re very old platforms
 

cannonfodder

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Will it be possible to develop an modified Uttam AESA for Su MKI once testing on tejas is done? That can be low hanging fruit if possible to integrate on 250+ Su planes.
 

johnq

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The Chinese do not require Russian hand holding in radar technology, unless their AESA radars turn out to be a flop i.e. they are already fielding early examples of their AESA radars while the Russians are still on PESA. The area that the Chinese need help is engine technology. Actually they wanted to buy just the AL-41 F1-S engines from Russia and use those engines to power their J-20 fighter,and then copy the engine to improve the WS-15 engine effort to be used in the J-20. But the Russians refused to sell just the engines (like they do the RD-93 for the JF-17) and so China was forced to buy 24 SU-35s and maybe they are negotiating to buy 24 more, so they can get their hands on the engines which is what they really want.
That is what I am saying: Chinese AESA radars suck. Just putting T/R modules and AESA hardware together does not a decent AESA radar make. It's what you do with the hardware that makes the difference (the programming), and where Chinese seriously lag. The Pakistanis know this too which is why they prefer western radars on aircraft imported from China. The current programming technology behind Chinese AESA radars is based on downgraded Russian PESA technology exported to China with the Su-35. The current programming technology on the BARS radar after the upgrades gives the Su-30MKI the edge, especially since it is now a hybrid AESA/PESA radar with new integrated AESA jamming technology. Don't fall for Chinese shiny brochures, it's just psy ops.
The Chinese were also saying before that they had the J-20 engine technology, right before they imported the Su-35 and put its engines into the J-20 to make it fly. The Chinese are full of it. Their whole game is to fool the world into believing that China is militarily very technologically advanced until they actually get there. The first female J-10 pilot died a horrible death after her J-10 crashed.
 
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johnq

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The programming technology behind the Su-30MKI's Bars radar is already ahead of the Irbis radar on the Su-35, so it doesn't make sense to upgrade to it. I think they are planning on a full indigenous AESA upgrade, which is better because it allows the IAF to keep updating its technology with the associated RWR and integrated jamming technology.
 

LDev

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Over the years there have been reports about various EM components on the SU-30 interfering with each other. We have had reports about the RWR, Bars radar and EW pods interfering with each other. I wonder how HAL tested the EW emissions of each of these systems to figure out whether they interfered with each other? Does HAL or the IAF even have the correct facility for testing? Clearly they did not do it before mounting them on the aircraft because the interference was found after they were already ordered in large quantities. This is one of the drawbacks of trying to mix and match radars, RWRs and EW pods from different countries/sources without the proper facilities to check whether they are truly compatible.

US defense contractors and the Air Force test EM interference by putting the whole plane into a giant anechoic chamber which is a room designed to stop reflections of either sound or electromagnetic waves and to isolate the aircraft from outside radio signals. The RF absorbers on the walls, floor, and ceiling inside the chamber prevent stray internal RF reflections created for the testing from bouncing back at the aircraft. The chamber is used to characterize and confirm radio frequency interactions and cooperative operation of aircraft avionics and to ensure that they do not interfere with each other.


The Boeing EA-18G Growler is tested with it's new generation low band jamming pod at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland.


The F-35A is tested at Lockheed Martin's anechoic chamber in Fort Worth, Texas



And this is what the inside of an anechoic chamber is like:

Inside the room it's silent. So silent that the background noise measured is actually negative decibels, -9.4 dBA. Steven Orfield, the lab's founder, told Hearing Aid Know: “We challenge people to sit in the chamber in the dark – one person stayed in there for 45 minutes. When it’s quiet, ears will adapt. The quieter the room, the more things you hear. You’ll hear your heart beating, sometimes you can hear your lungs, hear your stomach gurgling loudly. In the anechoic chamber, you become the sound."
 

Tridev123

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I am not saying That Tejas is bigger or Heavier than Rafales
Both are different aircrafts meant for different purpose (Tejas is made for point defence)
but i am asking what exceptional capabilities does Rafales have which Tejas doesn’t have ?
Because Tejas also has AESA Radars, quadriplex digital fly by wire system Israeli jamming pods etc
I will try to answer your query. Before starting. A question, why would our professional Air Force waste billions of US dollars to buy the Rafales if our own Tejas mk1 offered the same capability. Also even now many of the subsystems of the Tejas are imported including the engine, radar, ejection seats, defensive aids suite, quartz radome, HMDS, laser targeting pod etc. So unfortunately our Tejas is not still fully indigenous. Nothing surprising as many other global fighters too rely on components and systems from aerospace multinationals.

Coming to the Rafale, the roles it performs are
- air supremacy
- interdiction
- aerial reconnaissance
- ground support
- in depth strike
- nuclear deterrence
Reason why it is called omni role fighter.

Some of its features are(the full list is long)
- direct voice input
- RBE2 AA AESA radar
this radar is bigger than the Israeli EL/M - 2052 AESA radar on the Tejas with
more T/R elements and greater range and capability.
- IRST sensor
- Spectra system (a force multiplier capability)
- Super cruise capability
- data fusion capability etc
The weapons package that comes along with the aircraft is a big advantage
- Meteor AAM missiles
- Scalp ASM cruise missiles
- Mica IR & EM AAM missiles
- Hammer Air to Surface missiles
- AM39 Exocet missile for anti shipping role etc.
The Rafale has 14 hard points and can carry 9.5 tonnes of bombs and missiles compared to the 4 tonnes payload capability of the Tejas mk1. It can stay in the air much longer than the Tejas due to more fuel being carried. The on board gun cannon on the Rafale is fully operational whereas the Tejas is yet to fire its canon in the air.

French members like Le Bon can add many more attributes of the Rafale. Comparing the Rafale to a Tejas is an exercise in futility as both perform different roles and are in different weight class.
 

johnq

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Over the years there have been reports about various EM components on the SU-30 interfering with each other. We have had reports about the RWR, Bars radar and EW pods interfering with each other. I wonder how HAL tested the EW emissions of each of these systems to figure out whether they interfered with each other? Does HAL or the IAF even have the correct facility for testing? Clearly they did not do it before mounting them on the aircraft because the interference was found after they were already ordered in large quantities. This is one of the drawbacks of trying to mix and match radars, RWRs and EW pods from different countries/sources without the proper facilities to check whether they are truly compatible.

US defense contractors and the Air Force test EM interference by putting the whole plane into a giant anechoic chamber which is a room designed to stop reflections of either sound or electromagnetic waves and to isolate the aircraft from outside radio signals. The RF absorbers on the walls, floor, and ceiling inside the chamber prevent stray internal RF reflections created for the testing from bouncing back at the aircraft. The chamber is used to characterize and confirm radio frequency interactions and cooperative operation of aircraft avionics and to ensure that they do not interfere with each other.


The Boeing EA-18G Growler is tested with it's new generation low band jamming pod at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland.


The F-35A is tested at Lockheed Martin's anechoic chamber in Fort Worth, Texas



And this is what the inside of an anechoic chamber is like:

Inside the room it's silent. So silent that the background noise measured is actually negative decibels, -9.4 dBA. Steven Orfield, the lab's founder, told Hearing Aid Know: “We challenge people to sit in the chamber in the dark – one person stayed in there for 45 minutes. When it’s quiet, ears will adapt. The quieter the room, the more things you hear. You’ll hear your heart beating, sometimes you can hear your lungs, hear your stomach gurgling loudly. In the anechoic chamber, you become the sound."
They did have problems before, but they were able to resolve them over time. This was a few years ago:
EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI
Since then they have been able to resolve the issues by upgrading components and testing.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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I will try to answer your query. Before starting. A question, why would our professional Air Force waste billions of US dollars to buy the Rafales if our own Tejas mk1 offered the same capability. Also even now many of the subsystems of the Tejas are imported including the engine, radar, ejection seats, defensive aids suite, quartz radome, HMDS, laser targeting pod etc. So unfortunately our Tejas is not still fully indigenous. Nothing surprising as many other global fighters too rely on components and systems from aerospace multinationals.

Coming to the Rafale, the roles it performs are
- air supremacy
- interdiction
- aerial reconnaissance
- ground support
- in depth strike
- nuclear deterrence
Reason why it is called omni role fighter.

Some of its features are(the full list is long)
- direct voice input
- RBE2 AA AESA radar
this radar is bigger than the Israeli EL/M - 2052 AESA radar on the Tejas with
more T/R elements and greater range and capability.
- IRST sensor
- Spectra system (a force multiplier capability)
- Super cruise capability
- data fusion capability etc
The weapons package that comes along with the aircraft is a big advantage
- Meteor AAM missiles
- Scalp ASM cruise missiles
- Mica IR & EM AAM missiles
- Hammer Air to Surface missiles
- AM39 Exocet missile for anti shipping role etc.
The Rafale has 14 hard points and can carry 9.5 tonnes of bombs and missiles compared to the 4 tonnes payload capability of the Tejas mk1. It can stay in the air much longer than the Tejas due to more fuel being carried. The on board gun cannon on the Rafale is fully operational whereas the Tejas is yet to fire its canon in the air.

French members like Le Bon can add many more attributes of the Rafale. Comparing the Rafale to a Tejas is an exercise in futility as both perform different roles and are in different weight class.
IAF has bought Rafales because Su30mki is getting old and will start retiring after 20 years
Jaguars are also very old and Mirage 2000 and mig29 will also start retiring in next 10 years
Rafales being bigger aircraft than Tejas will definitely have bigger radars and it’s much better than Mirage 2000 or Jaguars
But rafales don’t have anything exceptionally superior which Tejas doesn’t have
 

Alfalfa

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IAF has bought Rafales because Su30mki is getting old and will start retiring after 20 years
Jaguars are also very old and Mirage 2000 and mig29 will also start retiring in next 10 years
Rafales being bigger aircraft than Tejas will definitely have bigger radars and it’s much better than Mirage 2000 or Jaguars
But rafales don’t have anything exceptionally superior which Tejas doesn’t have
I'm sorry what?? I love the Tejas project for what it has become, but lets not kid ourselves by saying there isnt much apart from a bigger radar that makes the Rafale special...
1) The SPECTRA suite is absolutely splendid, one of a kind .... almost at par with the Growler
2) The breadth of munitions it supports - Meteor, SCALP etc etc. Tejas simply isnt there yet
3) The petite size along with surprisingly powerful engines makes it the only Indian jet that can supercruise - which is a priceless advantage to have in densely contested airspaces like the subcontinent
4) A top quality Radar Warning Receiver and the neat X Guard towed decoy system to name a few...

Please dont compare apples with oranges... the Tejas is good but the Rafale is in a league of its own... we should endeavour to get to the same level
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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I'm sorry what?? I love the Tejas project for what it has become, but lets not kid ourselves by saying there isnt much apart from a bigger radar that makes the Rafale special...
1) The SPECTRA suite is absolutely splendid, one of a kind .... almost at par with the Growler
2) The breadth of munitions it supports - Meteor, SCALP etc etc. Tejas simply isnt there yet
3) The petite size along with surprisingly powerful engines makes it the only Indian jet that can supercruise - which is a priceless advantage to have in densely contested airspaces like the subcontinent
4) A top quality Radar Warning Receiver and the neat X Guard towed decoy system to name a few...

Please dont compare apples with oranges... the Tejas is good but the Rafale is in a league of its own... we should endeavour to get to the same level
Rafales can carry meteors Tejas can also carry meteors in future when it gets indian AESA Radars
not only that When Brahmos NG comes in future Tejas will carry Brahmos NG too
but I don’t think Rafales will ever carry Brahmos
because if Meteors are not allowed on because it has Russian Radars how can a missile jointly developed by India and Russia can be allowed to be integrated with European Platform like Rafale
 

Swiftfarts

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I have already posted here that on level of technology russian airborne Radars are decades behind , yet people still keep claiming russian tech to be something extraordinary. Most of the Russian high tech comes from western Europe. Off the shelf tech is keeping them afloat. In one on one Rafale has a high chance of smashing SU 35. Just look at the airborne radar design of western and russian radars here.

RBE 2 AESA( Rafale )
--2.jpg


AN/APG 81 AESA( F 35 )
f35-aesa (1).jpg


AN/APG 77 AESA not 77(v1) ( F 22 radar )
640px-AN-APG-77,_AESA,_Active_Electronically_Scanned_Array,_Northrop_Grumman,_2001_-_National_...jpg


Now russian radars.
SU 57 AESA
screenshot-4_orig (1).png


Mig 35 , mig 29.
19db67d311a29785d20a1b9d90ce268e.jpg

download (11).jpeg


You can see the difference in there antenna arrays. While all western AESA use notch radiators , russian radars use slot, patch or ring/loop radiators. Notch radiators offer higher bandwidth , higher directivity, can take higher power loads etc than the other types. This will directly affect radar performance and give them advantage over russian radar.


IMG_20200923_190738.jpg


If PESA radars were such a silver bullet we won't be importing AESA in first place. One poster above even made a comment about a Spectra which is a self protection suit to be better than a dedicated Jamming pod on growler LMAO!.
 

Swiftfarts

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Rafale AESA is superior to any radar on indian arsenal including russian one on pure level of tech. how ? Well
Rafale use vivaldi flared notch ( TSA) radiators.

Rafale and American radar use vivaldi
Flared notch radiators if you look closely.

• RBE 2 AESA ( Pic is from sister forum )
IMG_20200612_131506.jpg


images - 2020-09-23T190043.314.jpeg



• AN/APG 81 AESA, use densely packed TSA.
884px-AN-APG-81_Antenna,_2005_-_National_Electronics_Museum_-_DSC00393 (2).jpeg

10GHz radar phased array antenna (2).jpg

IMG_20200923_190929.jpg


Vivladi are broadband antenna and are suitable for wideband signals.This allow RBE 2 AESA and F 35 , F 22 radar to operate on very wide bandwidth probably whole of X band. using TSA and high power will allow main radar to do Electronic warfare attacks on its own. That's how F 35 radar do it.

Upcoming radar on Euro fighter probably use same but with higher TRM count along with GaN and GaAs for transmitter and receiver respectively. Using GaN will allow miniaturisation + higher power loads. Without compromising range and other parameters.
 

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