Sukhoi Su 30MKI

Sridhar_TN

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IAF Canberra was better than Paki Sebre during 1965 war.
Mig 21 was better than F-104 Starfighter in 1971.
MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 far better than primitive F-16 ( Infact F-16 is only modern fighter of PAF even today ) till year 2000
Su-30MKI is Baap of F-16 after 2000 till today.
Regarding China, IAF always have modern and technological advance jets up to year 2000.
Only a stupid can say IAF has inferior jets compare to its adversaries.
Actually it's IAF tactics which are grossly faulty and rudimentary.
By the what Israeli have given you so that you are feeling so powerful?? Why Israeli are faltering in Syria against Russia??
What exactly we have borrowed for AMCA from Rafale?? Absolutely nothing.


If we go by your logic then above said statement by @Chandragupt Maurya also hold its ground.
Regarding China, IAF always have modern and technology up to year 2000
LMAO.
Only idiots live in their own delusional worlds.

yeah, the Syrians are kicking the Israelis ass right? Idiot. Try talking a little bit more maturely the next time maybe? Pretty please?
 

vishnugupt

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LMAO.
Only idiots live in their own delusional worlds.

yeah, the Syrians are kicking the Israelis ass right? Idiot. Try talking a little bit more maturely the next time maybe? Pretty please?
That's it? this is your whole knowledge? Now go and get yourself admitted in school. After 12-15 years, come back here, try to read my post again and answer appropriately.
 

Flying Dagger

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But their fan boys used to boast that PAF Pilots used to fly more than IAF. because of constant flying they are more aggressive? I am confused :eek1: by their fan boys claim?
Their leaders claim they have atomic bombs that target only non muslim too.

Jokes aside our fleet is 3 times bigger than theirs.

They barely fly 30-40 of those F-16s, rest are in hangars .
 

Neptune

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Their leaders claim they have atomic bombs that target only non muslim too.

Jokes aside our fleet is 3 times bigger than theirs.

They barely fly 30-40 of those F-16s, rest are in hangars .


Well some context with flight hours. Of the original 40 F-16s Pakistan received between 1983-1987, 8 crashed by 1997 and I believe the 9th crashed in 2009 and the last was in 2020. In the 1980s Pakistan was receiving aid from the US due to their role in Afghanistan so crashes make sense since the funding was available to fly.

In the 1990s Pakistan was financially broke and under US embargo but they were in the position that they still had a large military that they had to fund. Pakistanis F-16 and Mirages were nearly grounded, we know this because of the low crash rates, financial crisis and embargo’s. At the end no money and no spares means no flying. In the late 1990s Pakistani pilots rarely flew.

Fast forward to “The War on Terror” and Pakistani crash rates skyrocketed. 24 Pakistani Mirages have crashed since 2002. The crashes have largely got better but only because those Mirages are now mostly in storage because: Pakistan uses JF-17s more and a fraction of Pakistan’s Mirages are actually air worthy and operational because of lack of spare parts and other Mirages being cannibalizes for parts. Even some US squadrons have been down to only 23% availability at some months so it’s safe to say many Pakistani aircraft are in hangers and not airworthy.

List of Mirage crashes, mostly Pakistani:





44 Pakistani pilots have 1000 hours of more on the F-16 and 13 have 2000+ hours. Pakistan probably has 30-40 (maybe way less) F-16s available at all times, which are given to their most experienced pilots including flight instructors and aggressor pilots. It’s anyones guess how much JF-17s fly and Mirages are mostly none operational. So my guess is that tier 1 pilots comprise of maybe 2-3 dozen F-16 pilots, tier 2 pilots are JF-17s in which Pakistan probably has a least a few top squadrons that clock decent flying times, the rest of JF-17 are probably mostly reserves that occasionally fly when money is available. Tier 3 is mirage pilots, cargo pilots and helicopter pilots.

 

Sridhar_TN

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Well some context with flight hours. Of the original 40 F-16s Pakistan received between 1983-1987, 8 crashed by 1997 and I believe the 9th crashed in 2009 and the last was in 2020. In the 1980s Pakistan was receiving aid from the US due to their role in Afghanistan so crashes make sense since the funding was available to fly.

In the 1990s Pakistan was financially broke and under US embargo but they were in the position that they still had a large military that they had to fund. Pakistanis F-16 and Mirages were nearly grounded, we know this because of the low crash rates, financial crisis and embargo’s. At the end no money and no spares means no flying. In the late 1990s Pakistani pilots rarely flew.

Fast forward to “The War on Terror” and Pakistani crash rates skyrocketed. 24 Pakistani Mirages have crashed since 2002. The crashes have largely got better but only because those Mirages are now mostly in storage because: Pakistan uses JF-17s more and a fraction of Pakistan’s Mirages are actually air worthy and operational because of lack of spare parts and other Mirages being cannibalizes for parts. Even some US squadrons have been down to only 23% availability at some months so it’s safe to say many Pakistani aircraft are in hangers and not airworthy.

List of Mirage crashes, mostly Pakistani:





44 Pakistani pilots have 1000 hours of more on the F-16 and 13 have 2000+ hours. Pakistan probably has 30-40 (maybe way less) F-16s available at all times, which are given to their most experienced pilots including flight instructors and aggressor pilots. It’s anyones guess how much JF-17s fly and Mirages are mostly none operational. So my guess is that tier 1 pilots comprise of maybe 2-3 dozen F-16 pilots, tier 2 pilots are JF-17s in which Pakistan probably has a least a few top squadrons that clock decent flying times, the rest of JF-17 are probably mostly reserves that occasionally fly when money is available. Tier 3 is mirage pilots, cargo pilots and helicopter pilots.

Point to note is also that the mirages are not the M2000 version which the IAF has. It’s the old(certainly obsolete) Mirage V’s with the Rose upgrade that PAF flies.
 

Flying Dagger

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Well some context with flight hours. Of the original 40 F-16s Pakistan received between 1983-1987, 8 crashed by 1997 and I believe the 9th crashed in 2009 and the last was in 2020. In the 1980s Pakistan was receiving aid from the US due to their role in Afghanistan so crashes make sense since the funding was available to fly.

In the 1990s Pakistan was financially broke and under US embargo but they were in the position that they still had a large military that they had to fund. Pakistanis F-16 and Mirages were nearly grounded, we know this because of the low crash rates, financial crisis and embargo’s. At the end no money and no spares means no flying. In the late 1990s Pakistani pilots rarely flew.

Fast forward to “The War on Terror” and Pakistani crash rates skyrocketed. 24 Pakistani Mirages have crashed since 2002. The crashes have largely got better but only because those Mirages are now mostly in storage because: Pakistan uses JF-17s more and a fraction of Pakistan’s Mirages are actually air worthy and operational because of lack of spare parts and other Mirages being cannibalizes for parts. Even some US squadrons have been down to only 23% availability at some months so it’s safe to say many Pakistani aircraft are in hangers and not airworthy.

List of Mirage crashes, mostly Pakistani:





44 Pakistani pilots have 1000 hours of more on the F-16 and 13 have 2000+ hours. Pakistan probably has 30-40 (maybe way less) F-16s available at all times, which are given to their most experienced pilots including flight instructors and aggressor pilots. It’s anyones guess how much JF-17s fly and Mirages are mostly none operational. So my guess is that tier 1 pilots comprise of maybe 2-3 dozen F-16 pilots, tier 2 pilots are JF-17s in which Pakistan probably has a least a few top squadrons that clock decent flying times, the rest of JF-17 are probably mostly reserves that occasionally fly when money is available. Tier 3 is mirage pilots, cargo pilots and helicopter pilots.

True, even Jf 17 whenever they fly , they crash. The reason is its engine. We have the same issue with mig 29 but due to twin engine configuration we manage to bring them back.

There will be more Jf 17 going down in drain over the years.
 

Neptune

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True, even Jf 17 whenever they fly , they crash. The reason is its engine. We have the same issue with mig 29 but due to twin engine configuration we manage to bring them back.

There will be more Jf 17 going down in drain over the years.

I doubt that it’s only engine problems. The pilot that crashed a JF-17 in the ocean apparently did not eject which is an indication that it was probably spacial disorientation. The other two cranes are a mystery, someone was saying the first crash was due to structural issues but that is just internet talk.
 

Sridhar_TN

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Well some context with flight hours. Of the original 40 F-16s Pakistan received between 1983-1987, 8 crashed by 1997 and I believe the 9th crashed in 2009 and the last was in 2020. In the 1980s Pakistan was receiving aid from the US due to their role in Afghanistan so crashes make sense since the funding was available to fly.

In the 1990s Pakistan was financially broke and under US embargo but they were in the position that they still had a large military that they had to fund. Pakistanis F-16 and Mirages were nearly grounded, we know this because of the low crash rates, financial crisis and embargo’s. At the end no money and no spares means no flying. In the late 1990s Pakistani pilots rarely flew.

Fast forward to “The War on Terror” and Pakistani crash rates skyrocketed. 24 Pakistani Mirages have crashed since 2002. The crashes have largely got better but only because those Mirages are now mostly in storage because: Pakistan uses JF-17s more and a fraction of Pakistan’s Mirages are actually air worthy and operational because of lack of spare parts and other Mirages being cannibalizes for parts. Even some US squadrons have been down to only 23% availability at some months so it’s safe to say many Pakistani aircraft are in hangers and not airworthy.

List of Mirage crashes, mostly Pakistani:





44 Pakistani pilots have 1000 hours of more on the F-16 and 13 have 2000+ hours. Pakistan probably has 30-40 (maybe way less) F-16s available at all times, which are given to their most experienced pilots including flight instructors and aggressor pilots. It’s anyones guess how much JF-17s fly and Mirages are mostly none operational. So my guess is that tier 1 pilots comprise of maybe 2-3 dozen F-16 pilots, tier 2 pilots are JF-17s in which Pakistan probably has a least a few top squadrons that clock decent flying times, the rest of JF-17 are probably mostly reserves that occasionally fly when money is available. Tier 3 is mirage pilots, cargo pilots and helicopter pilots.

Point to not is the PAF’s areenal of mirages are mirage V. Not the mirage 2000(the latest ones) that everyone else uses.
 

Karthi

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I have already posted here that on level of technology russian airborne Radars are decades behind , yet people still keep claiming russian tech to be something extraordinary. Most of the Russian high tech comes from western Europe. Off the shelf tech is keeping them afloat. In one on one Rafale has a high chance of smashing SU 35. Just look at the airborne radar design of western and russian radars here.

RBE 2 AESA( Rafale )
View attachment 60030

AN/APG 81 AESA( F 35 )
View attachment 60031

AN/APG 77 AESA not 77(v1) ( F 22 radar )
View attachment 60028

Now russian radars.
SU 57 AESA
View attachment 60029

Mig 35 , mig 29.
View attachment 60034
View attachment 60033

You can see the difference in there antenna arrays. While all western AESA use notch radiators , russian radars use slot, patch or ring/loop radiators. Notch radiators offer higher bandwidth , higher directivity, can take higher power loads etc than the other types. This will directly affect radar performance and give them advantage over russian radar.


View attachment 60036

If PESA radars were such a silver bullet we won't be importing AESA in first place. One poster above even made a comment about a Spectra which is a self protection suit to be better than a dedicated Jamming pod on growler LMAO!.


Hey bro can you please share the original document of the last picture
 

Neptune

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I have already posted here that on level of technology russian airborne Radars are decades behind , yet people still keep claiming russian tech to be something extraordinary.




Russia is about 5 years or perhaps 10 years behind in the semiconductor industry. This however, does not mean that they cannot innovate or use clever techniques or programming to be on equal footing. People forget the Soviet Union was the first country to put PESA radar on a fighter. Russia was the first country to have PESA/AESA hybrid and the first country to implement side lobe radars.




Most of the Russian high tech comes from western Europe.




Absolute nonetheless. Russia has imported a very limited amount of technology from Europe or Israel and that technology has been getting fazed out and replaced anyways. The French HUDs are replaces, the Israeli sources drones are getting their avionics replaces by Russian ones. I believe Malaysia also opted for Russian jammers over French ones and the Indians are also adapting Russian jammers. Russia has a very hard time sourcing anything from Europe or the US which I will talk about more.






Off the shelf tech is keeping them afloat.




This is way off. There are strict import and export laws between the US and other countries especially in Europe (I recently had to take classes on this where I work because of the industry I work in). People have been arrested trying to export even wet suits and rubber motorboats to hostile nations like China. Every major industry in Russia has been under sanctions for almost 5 years so I don’t no where you are pulling this brilliant information from.



If it were as easy as you think North Korea and Iran would have had AESA radars and other hi end technology by simply importing. Lastly, you may not know this but some microprocessors are designed where they can only work in a specific applications. This is done to preserve intellectual property and stop theft, so even if Russia somehow got some fancy technology from a foundry it would be totally useless.






In one on one Rafale has a high chance of smashing SU 35. Just look at the airborne radar design of western and russian radars here.

I’m sure you speak from personal experience. In the past even old Mig-25s have downed F-18, MiG-23s downed F-14s and Mig-21s downed F-4s. The SU-35 has a number of advantages over the Rafale and as I mentioned earlier even inferior Russian aircraft have shot down superior western aircraft before.
The SU-35 radar still has greater range and the R-37M missile also has greater range over the Meteor, admittedly it is a less maneuverable missile.


RBE 2 AESA( Rafale )

AN/APG 81 AESA( F 35 )

Yet a small Zhuk Radar now offers over 1000+ TR modules compared to about 840 from an REB2. Which is an important factor.






Now russian radars.

SU 57 AESA

Yea, what about it? It still easily outperform the REB2 and when the side lob radar combines beam steered with the main radar it will have performance the Rafale can only dream of. More TR modules, concentrated in a single spot provides far greater range, resolution and accuracy.







You can see the difference in there antenna arrays. While all western AESA use notch radiators , russian radars use slot, patch or ring/loop radiators. Notch radiators offer higher bandwidth , higher directivity, can take higher power loads etc than the other types. This will directly affect radar performance and give them advantage over russian radar.


Yet you are disregarding TR modules and their spacing along with many other factors such as phase shifters and the hardware and software that goes from the subarrays to be processed and input throughout various weapons systems.

The Zhuk has quite a good TR count for its size and so does the N036 especially when combined with the side lobe radars. Even an AESA using patch modules can outperform and slot arrays if there are more TR modules, those modules are spaced closer.

All AESA radar shoot random beams using their modules in the search mode, the range in this mode is limited compared to when the modules are focused on one or a few targets such as when a target is tracked. In other words once TR modules focus their power on specific areas, the range, desolate accuracy improve. The spacing is important because, the wider apart the modules the more energy is wasted usually from side lobes radiating.



Most of this is from your source so you should understand:

83606538-DE84-4CBC-BB8F-A57E1C6056B9.png


As I stated early the TR count or arrays improve performance in all parameters. Here is an example of that. You can read more in the link for further details.

CB0B3F8C-23C1-4C98-A39B-D9E802516B05.png


This is why array placement or TR density is so important. The closer the arrays the more concentrated the power with less energy expended.

1231CC10-C64A-4B9C-A954-68B4BF233149.jpeg


The Zhuk is extremely tightly packed. If it were to use slotted arrays the TR modules would appear even tighter. 1000+ modules is impressive for such a small radar. The arrays packed this tight should give the Zhuk very good performance, at least comparable or better to the REB2.

7F36B80D-B2B5-4437-8F56-A701B7570CAC.jpeg


This is a Russian AESA TR modules, you are wrong. Russia can make slotted arrays and they do not need to import.



@Karthi he probably got it here:

 

Swiftfarts

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Russia is about 5 years or perhaps 10 years behind in the semiconductor industry. This however, does not mean that they cannot innovate or use clever techniques or programming to be on equal footing. People forget the Soviet Union was the first country to put PESA radar on a fighter. Russia was the first country to have PESA/AESA hybrid and the first country to implement side lobe radars.
Just because soviet put a PESA on a fighter first doesn't mean they were ahead or Russia is ahead now. They even put a man on space first. we all know what happened after that.
. Yet a small Zhuk Radar now offers over 1000+ TR modules compared to about 840 from an REB2. Which is an important factor.
. Yea, what about it? It still easily outperform the REB2 and when the side lob radar combines beam steered with the main radar it will have performance the Rafale can only dream of. More TR modules, concentrated in a single spot provides far greater range, resolution and accuracy.
Yet you are disregarding TR modules and their spacing along with many other factors such as phase shifters and the hardware and software that goes from the subarrays to be processed and input throughout various weapons systems.

The Zhuk has quite a good TR count for its size and so does the N036 especially when combined with the side lobe radars. Even an AESA using patch modules can outperform and slot arrays if there are more TR modules, those modules are spaced closer.

All AESA radar shoot random beams using their modules in the search mode, the range in this mode is limited compared to when the modules are focused on one or a few targets such as when a target is tracked. In other words once TR modules focus their power on specific areas, the range, desolate accuracy improve. The spacing is important because, the wider apart the modules the more energy is wasted usually from side lobes radiating.
again with TRM count. Yes absolute TRM count does matter so does aperture size but i never said anything about that if you read my post again carefully. I said level of technology. Notch radiators are superior period. ( a slightly Less TRM AESA using notch radiators can outperform an AESA using slightly higher but old generation radiating elements ). ECCM and LPI characteristics offered by an AESA using notch radiator will always be superior due to there wideband characteristics.
our own UTTAM use densely packed notch radiators not patch, slot, ring/loop like russians for a reason.
uttam side view (3).JPG


LRDE is developing Vivaldi(TSA) based 3rd generation AESA for AMCA. not patch , ring loop or slot.
vialdi close-res (3).png


as for TRM count @BON PLAN and some other french members have claimed that real TRM count is 1000+ on RBE 2 AESA. For a 55 cm aperture that's not bad compared to 65 cm in case of mig 29, mig 35 AESA , which still use old generation of radiating elements.
 

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Playing Devil's advocate here:

Su-30 MKI purchase and license production was a bad idea.
IAF & MoD should have gone with the French in the 1990s and struck a deal to manufacture Rafales in India by HAL, and taken ToT primarily in weapons tech, electronics/ avionics tech, and advanced manufacturing tech/ tool development to feed the LCA program, while pouring in a ton of money in Gas Turbine research. Outcome would be that we would have 250+ Rafales by now (across the gamut of standards and upgradeability built in), and significant capabilities in A2A and A2G munitions as well as avionics. And probably a working Kaveri.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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Playing Devil's advocate here:

Su-30 MKI purchase and license production was a bad idea.
IAF & MoD should have gone with the French in the 1990s and struck a deal to manufacture Rafales in India by HAL, and taken ToT primarily in weapons tech, electronics/ avionics tech, and advanced manufacturing tech/ tool development to feed the LCA program, while pouring in a ton of money in Gas Turbine research. Outcome would be that we would have 250+ Rafales by now (across the gamut of standards and upgradeability built in), and significant capabilities in A2A and A2G munitions as well as avionics. And probably a working Kaveri.
How are rafales exceptionally superior to Su30mki , and what after upgrading the Su30mki into super su30mki with indigenous or foreign AESA Radars and other technology would rafales still be superior to Su30mki ?
 

Trololo

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How are rafales exceptionally superior to Su30mki , and what after upgrading the Su30mki into super su30mki with indigenous or foreign AESA Radars and other technology would rafales still be superior to Su30mki ?
Good question. As of now the Rafales have an edge in:

1> Materials & Manufacturing
2> Maintenance
3> Electronics and Avionics
4> Low RCS
5> Capability to carry high quantities of exceptional A2A and A2G munitions.
6> Top notch A2G capability
7> Deep Strike capability
8> Carrier variant availability
9> BVR capability
10> Supercruise capability with useful combat load
11> Sensor fusion capability
12> Net centric capability

As of now the Su-30s have an edge in:

1> WVR combat
2> Price

If the Super-30 upgrade is a deep no holds barred mega upgrade, it should be able to trump the Rafale in the following immediately after the upgrade:

1> A much better radar thanks to the large aperture and high power provided by 117S engines. This also assumes antenna is of Vivaldi design. Will improve range detection, tracking, and jamming resistance in BVR manifold, and can match or overmatch the Rafale if appropriate missile is given.
2> Extremely powerful jammer and EW suite if the D-29 is anything to go by.
3> Ability to launch Brahmos (already present, but higher thrust engine can improve flight envelope. Not sure though.)
4> Much better WVR capability due to high excess power causing less energy loss in a tight loop.
5> DAS capability

It should be able to match the Rafale in:

1> Low level flying and deep strike capability (very important. no russian design has proven to be outstanding in this department).
2> Top notch A2G munitions carrying capability
3> BVR capability with induction of Astra Mk2 and Mk3
4> Supercruise capability
5> Net centric capability

I expect India to be able to add sensor fusion capability to the MKI as a software upgrade at some point.
 

Alfalfa

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I have already posted here that on level of technology russian airborne Radars are decades behind , yet people still keep claiming russian tech to be something extraordinary. Most of the Russian high tech comes from western Europe. Off the shelf tech is keeping them afloat. In one on one Rafale has a high chance of smashing SU 35. Just look at the airborne radar design of western and russian radars here.

RBE 2 AESA( Rafale )
View attachment 60030

AN/APG 81 AESA( F 35 )
View attachment 60031

AN/APG 77 AESA not 77(v1) ( F 22 radar )
View attachment 60028

Now russian radars.
SU 57 AESA
View attachment 60029

Mig 35 , mig 29.
View attachment 60034
View attachment 60033

You can see the difference in there antenna arrays. While all western AESA use notch radiators , russian radars use slot, patch or ring/loop radiators. Notch radiators offer higher bandwidth , higher directivity, can take higher power loads etc than the other types. This will directly affect radar performance and give them advantage over russian radar.


View attachment 60036

If PESA radars were such a silver bullet we won't be importing AESA in first place. One poster above even made a comment about a Spectra which is a self protection suit to be better than a dedicated Jamming pod on growler LMAO!.
If you were referring to me, I was comparing the Rafale with the F-18 growler, NOT the spectra suite with the ALQ239 Raytheon pod...
<<insert unnecessary LMAO>>
 

Inbredstank2a

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The missiles are much better also so radar alone won't help. The defense establishment shows full faith in western missiles.
Su 30mki are not a joke they are much required given our current situation. Just hope that the extension program comes along otherwise there would be no point in upgrading something that will be nearing its airframe life.
 

Trololo

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Can anyone tell me if partnering with the UK for the ECRS Mk2 project for the Typhoon will yield us any benefits? In that case the lessons from the Uttam and ECRS can be used in the AMCA project, and the ECRS Mk2 can also be the standard radar on the MKI after an upgrade. Opens up the MKI to use the Meteor as well.
 

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