Sukhoi Su 30MKI

LDev

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Can anyone tell me if partnering with the UK for the ECRS Mk2 project for the Typhoon will yield us any benefits? In that case the lessons from the Uttam and ECRS can be used in the AMCA project, and the ECRS Mk2 can also be the standard radar on the MKI after an upgrade. Opens up the MKI to use the Meteor as well.
Great idea with 2 caveats:

1. The ECRS Mk 2 is a highly classified project for the Royal Air Force. What are the chances that they will allow such a radar to be sold to India? The claim is that in certain respects this radar matches or even surpasses the APG-81 radar on the F-35.

2. The radar is being co-developed by BAE Systems and Leonardo. Leonardo has been blacklisted in India since 2014 because of the VVIP helicopter scam. Unless India get's rid of this stupid policy of blacklisting the supplier with immediate effect and on an indefinite basis which is like shooting yourself in the foot but at the same time letting the investigation of the recipients of the bribes in India drag on for years while they enjoy their ill gotten gains, I don't see this happening.
 

Trololo

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Great idea with 2 caveats:

1. The ECRS Mk 2 is a highly classified project for the Royal Air Force. What are the chances that they will allow such a radar to be sold to India? The claim is that in certain respects this radar matches or even surpasses the APG-81 radar on the F-35.

2. The radar is being co-developed by BAE Systems and Leonardo. Leonardo has been blacklisted in India since 2014 because of the VVIP helicopter scam. Unless India get's rid of this stupid policy of blacklisting the supplier with immediate effect and on an indefinite basis which is like shooting yourself in the foot but at the same time letting the investigation of the recipients of the bribes in India drag on for years while they enjoy their ill gotten gains, I don't see this happening.
Fair points. Especially the black list angle. My 2 cents:

1> Accept the engine offer from Rolls Royce for the AMCA. Since we will own the tech from that, the benefits will be manifold. I’ve already mentioned that in a separate post but can’t find that. That gives heft to our intentions.

2> Remove Leonardo from the blacklist. Defence procurement reforms are well set to eliminate middlemen in defence deals in India. (Correct me here if I am wrong).

3> Setup a JV with an Indian pvt player and DRDO to collaborate with BAE and Leonardo on the ECRS Mk2 project for the AMCA. Remember that accepting the engine offer and pumping funds show our intentions. The contract must be written in that way to favour us in the deal if we are investing our money. Also it benefits the UK in the long run to partner with us. We have the economic heft and they know that. Also the Chinese will eat them out hollow if they don’t. With things getting worse with China the only other country that can offer such a counterbalance is India and everyone knows it.

4> Pump the benefits of the R&D of this project into the Uttam project. AFAIK Uttam has some drawbacks with respect to Vivaldi TR modules, TR module size, and some DSP algorithms. Pumping the ECRS research into this program will energise it big time and will give us an affordable cutting edge radar, which can be exported to the international market similar to the Ekta 2052 or the SABR or Raven. And GaN modules can be added later when the technology matures in the country.

5> ECRS Mk2 is the foundation for the Tempest radar. That is for sure. Since the UK is looking for partners in that project, it suits us. The way I see it, the odds are in our favour. Fire away your comments.
 

Arihant Roy

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A Su-30MKi with the entire shebang.

Ejs8c5oVkAElVH3.jpeg


SAP 518 self defense ecm pods and the SAP-14 escort jammer pod.

Operated together they act like a dedicated Suppression of enemy Air defense aircraft like the Growler. This combination can also be used in the ELINT mode to build the enemy's EOB.

One of the SAP-518 we pods acts like a dedicated receiver while the other is an emitter.

Purportedly this pic was taken at the Airforce day parade.
 

Dessert Storm

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Fair points. Especially the black list angle. My 2 cents:

1> Accept the engine offer from Rolls Royce for the AMCA. Since we will own the tech from that, the benefits will be manifold. I’ve already mentioned that in a separate post but can’t find that. That gives heft to our intentions.

2> Remove Leonardo from the blacklist. Defence procurement reforms are well set to eliminate middlemen in defence deals in India. (Correct me here if I am wrong).

3> Setup a JV with an Indian pvt player and DRDO to collaborate with BAE and Leonardo on the ECRS Mk2 project for the AMCA. Remember that accepting the engine offer and pumping funds show our intentions. The contract must be written in that way to favour us in the deal if we are investing our money. Also it benefits the UK in the long run to partner with us. We have the economic heft and they know that. Also the Chinese will eat them out hollow if they don’t. With things getting worse with China the only other country that can offer such a counterbalance is India and everyone knows it.

4> Pump the benefits of the R&D of this project into the Uttam project. AFAIK Uttam has some drawbacks with respect to Vivaldi TR modules, TR module size, and some DSP algorithms. Pumping the ECRS research into this program will energise it big time and will give us an affordable cutting edge radar, which can be exported to the international market similar to the Ekta 2052 or the SABR or Raven. And GaN modules can be added later when the technology matures in the country.

5> ECRS Mk2 is the foundation for the Tempest radar. That is for sure. Since the UK is looking for partners in that project, it suits us. The way I see it, the odds are in our favour. Fire away your comments.
If we join any of the European 6th Gen effort along with an engine JV with RR, I think the blacklisting goes away and we will be smoothening out the learning curve for quiet a few technologies (hard bargain, but only India can give them the max sale numbers for a 6th gen fighter).
 

Dessert Storm

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I wonder if these new missiles will ever be incorporated in the MKIs? My guess is yes. It looks like the first images of the K-77M.

View attachment 61547
The Russians would try to throw them in along with their offer of Super Sukohis. India, as of now wants do most of the upgrades indigenously (except the engines).
 

Flying Dagger

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If we join any of the European 6th Gen effort along with an engine JV with RR, I think the blacklisting goes away and we will be smoothening out the learning curve for quiet a few technologies (hard bargain, but only India can give them the max sale numbers for a 6th gen fighter).
Blacklisting can be taken care of by government. It's not main issue.

If we do some serious lobbying in UK, throw money at right places, we have more to gain from UK than French.

We are lucky we are getting engine with IPR and if we continue the delay, will see this opportunity slip through.

Having said that our own indigenous program in Radar are good and going smooth ( Thanks Israel ) 🙂

The Russians would try to throw them in along with their offer of Super Sukohis. India, as of now wants do most of the upgrades indigenously (except the engines).
We do need them , the ramjet version with 190-200 km range until SFDR kicks in. Meteor will not be on Tejas or Su/Mig combo.
 

Dessert Storm

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Blacklisting can be taken care of by government. It's not main issue.

If we do some serious lobbying in UK, throw money at right places, we have more to gain from UK than French.

We are lucky we are getting engine with IPR and if we continue the delay, will see this opportunity slip through.

Having said that our own indigenous program in Radar are good and going smooth ( Thanks Israel ) 🙂



We do need them , the ramjet version with 190-200 km range until SFDR kicks in. Meteor will not be on Tejas or Su/Mig combo.
Of similar view on RR JV. But behind the scene negotiations will be tricky.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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Integration of UTTAM AESA RADARS on Su30mki will be great
it’s a dream come true
I hope it happens as soon as possible
It will increase the capabilities of Su30mki and will also save us a lot of money
Only if DRDO comes up with some kind of engine for Su30mki and Mig29 these aircrafts will become formidable
 

WolfPack86

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IAF Backs Upscaled UTTAM Aesa Radar for the Su-30MKI fleet

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is satisfied at the rate of progress of the Indigenous Uttam Aesa Fire Control Radar (FCR) which is under development for the Tejas Mk2 program and even likely to be used for Tejas Mk1A Block-II Batches and have backed a proposal to develop a Scaled-up UTTAM Aesa Radar to be used for other fighter jets. Deputy Chief of Air Force Air Marshal Sandeep Singh, for the first time, has confirmed that IAF is keen that a Scaled-up UTTAM Aesa Radar is developed particularly for the Su-30MKI fleet. Scaled-up UTTAM Aesa Radar basically will leverage large Nose cone space, which is available to its advantage allowing it to be adapted to aircraft nose limitations. Scaled-up UTTAM Aesa Radar will feature a larger antenna size with more Transmit/Receive (T/R) modules. UTTAM Aesa Radar under development will feature 700 T/R modules, for Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 program. but later versions of the Tejas Mk2 might get slightly upscaled UTTAM Aesa Radar with 1000 T/R modules, and the same, might be also used on the TEDBF jet which will be developed for the Carrier based requirement for the Indian Navy. Su-30MKI Enjoys bigger Nose cone space which means a larger antenna size with 1200-1300 T/R modules can be developed if it can meet its 8-10 kVA power requirement. LRDE is also working to develop, next-generation Gallium Nitride (GaN) semiconductors, which will have better performance, in terms of electronic counter-countermeasures, small target detection, and wider bandwidth than most current AESA sensors that employ Gallium arsenide (GaAs) TRMs, while consuming less power and generating less heat. GaN radar might be first seen in the 5.5th Generation AMCA fighter jet and might be later adopted to other fighter fleets.
 

LDev

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Fair points. Especially the black list angle. My 2 cents:

1> Accept the engine offer from Rolls Royce for the AMCA. Since we will own the tech from that, the benefits will be manifold. I’ve already mentioned that in a separate post but can’t find that. That gives heft to our intentions.

2> Remove Leonardo from the blacklist. Defence procurement reforms are well set to eliminate middlemen in defence deals in India. (Correct me here if I am wrong).

3> Setup a JV with an Indian pvt player and DRDO to collaborate with BAE and Leonardo on the ECRS Mk2 project for the AMCA. Remember that accepting the engine offer and pumping funds show our intentions. The contract must be written in that way to favour us in the deal if we are investing our money. Also it benefits the UK in the long run to partner with us. We have the economic heft and they know that. Also the Chinese will eat them out hollow if they don’t. With things getting worse with China the only other country that can offer such a counterbalance is India and everyone knows it.

4> Pump the benefits of the R&D of this project into the Uttam project. AFAIK Uttam has some drawbacks with respect to Vivaldi TR modules, TR module size, and some DSP algorithms. Pumping the ECRS research into this program will energise it big time and will give us an affordable cutting edge radar, which can be exported to the international market similar to the Ekta 2052 or the SABR or Raven. And GaN modules can be added later when the technology matures in the country.

5> ECRS Mk2 is the foundation for the Tempest radar. That is for sure. Since the UK is looking for partners in that project, it suits us. The way I see it, the odds are in our favour. Fire away your comments.
The UK is likely to back such an effort IMO only if India agrees to participate in the Tempest program and it may not be a bad idea for India. The Rafale is the last stand-alone French aircraft and both the Rafale and the Eurofighter will be phased out in European air forces by 2040. The successor is the FCAS, the 6th gen French project is as you know actually a collaborative project between France, Germany and Spain at least, probably Italy may join in and then it becomes a pan European 6th Gen project. A very important reason for Indias's arms relationship with France has been an independent French policy on arms relationships and exports. With the French no longer the sole decision makers in the FCAS, I am not sure how comfortable India will be to be at the mercy of a pan European consortium where human rights issues etc. could raise their heads. At the same time Tempest will require a huge amount of investment which the UK will not be able to muster up on it's own and hence the presentations it has made to Japan and India.
 

Trololo

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IAF Backs Upscaled UTTAM Aesa Radar for the Su-30MKI fleet

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is satisfied at the rate of progress of the Indigenous Uttam Aesa Fire Control Radar (FCR) which is under development for the Tejas Mk2 program and even likely to be used for Tejas Mk1A Block-II Batches and have backed a proposal to develop a Scaled-up UTTAM Aesa Radar to be used for other fighter jets. Deputy Chief of Air Force Air Marshal Sandeep Singh, for the first time, has confirmed that IAF is keen that a Scaled-up UTTAM Aesa Radar is developed particularly for the Su-30MKI fleet. Scaled-up UTTAM Aesa Radar basically will leverage large Nose cone space, which is available to its advantage allowing it to be adapted to aircraft nose limitations. Scaled-up UTTAM Aesa Radar will feature a larger antenna size with more Transmit/Receive (T/R) modules. UTTAM Aesa Radar under development will feature 700 T/R modules, for Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 program. but later versions of the Tejas Mk2 might get slightly upscaled UTTAM Aesa Radar with 1000 T/R modules, and the same, might be also used on the TEDBF jet which will be developed for the Carrier based requirement for the Indian Navy. Su-30MKI Enjoys bigger Nose cone space which means a larger antenna size with 1200-1300 T/R modules can be developed if it can meet its 8-10 kVA power requirement. LRDE is also working to develop, next-generation Gallium Nitride (GaN) semiconductors, which will have better performance, in terms of electronic counter-countermeasures, small target detection, and wider bandwidth than most current AESA sensors that employ Gallium arsenide (GaAs) TRMs, while consuming less power and generating less heat. GaN radar might be first seen in the 5.5th Generation AMCA fighter jet and might be later adopted to other fighter fleets.
This is a very positive development. I hope that the upscaled Uttam and the MWF panoramic glass cockpit makes its way to the MKI. But somewhere I also feel that the MKI upgrade will not start until the next couple of years. As I had indicated earlier, should we partner with the UK on the ECRS Mk2 program? ECRS Mk2 is the foundation of the radar that will go in the tempest. Advantages are:

1> Will help plug in gaps in our own radar tech, as work on this also happens in parallel in the country.
2> By 2024 we will have a 5+ gen radar in large numbers on the MKI
3> Lessons from the program will find its way to the Uttam.
4> Uttam will become a very capable radar and be available to the export market to compete against the 2052, SABR, Raven, etc. Just imagine....scaled up Uttams made available to legacy Flankers and Fulcrums of SE Asia and North Africa, etc.
5> We will have 2 very good radars on our hand: A high end but expensive one and a slightly lesser high end but nonetheless very capable and affordable one.
6> Solid foundation for the AMCA radar, and any 6th gen jets India will make.
7> Lessons from all this will go into making very advanced radar based missile seekers in India.

Will need deft manoeuvring from the MoD and IAF to make this happen.

Of course if they feel that DRDOs Uttam alone can suffice their need, and that advanced tech is already available in house, then no need to go with the UK on this one.
 

Trololo

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The UK is likely to back such an effort IMO only if India agrees to participate in the Tempest program and it may not be a bad idea for India. The Rafale is the last stand-alone French aircraft and both the Rafale and the Eurofighter will be phased out in European air forces by 2040. The successor is the FCAS, the 6th gen French project is as you know actually a collaborative project between France, Germany and Spain at least, probably Italy may join in and then it becomes a pan European 6th Gen project. A very important reason for Indias's arms relationship with France has been an independent French policy on arms relationships and exports. With the French no longer the sole decision makers in the FCAS, I am not sure how comfortable India will be to be at the mercy of a pan European consortium where human rights issues etc. could raise their heads. At the same time Tempest will require a huge amount of investment which the UK will not be able to muster up on it's own and hence the presentations it has made to Japan and India.
Very valid point. AFAIK Germany made a fuss about some HR issues in India a while back and refused to sell some arms. With the UK there is always the risk of US sanctions and the UK's ji huzoori, but then throwing money at them might solve these issues. To be fair its a bit dicy on both ends. Had France gone solo on FCAS it would have been the best deal for us. Who knows that might happen again as it did with the Rafale and EFT.
 

LDev

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Continued from above:

An upscaled Uttam radar in a JV with Leonardo with inputs from ECRS Mk 2 for the SU-30 will be all that the IAF can ask for and more. It will enable a variety of Indian and Western PGMs to be integrated with the SU-30 and end the reliance on Russian AAMs etc. Ideally a collaboration with Leonardo should include BAE Systems who are first rate integrators and also developed ECM and EA systems for diverse fighters including the F-35. If such a JV Uttam radar can also be used for EA and ECMs, then the SU-30 will become truly formidable for the rest of it's life. While the engines are problematic and have a short life span, I think upgrading the engines is not a cost effective measure at this stage. If India does decide to participate in the Tempest program then BAE System's collaboration with any Uttam JV project will become a formality as if I am not mistaken, BAE Systems is the prime contractor/integrator for the Tempest program.
 

Trololo

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Continued from above:

An upscaled Uttam radar in a JV with Leonardo with inputs from ECRS Mk 2 for the SU-30 will be all that the IAF can ask for and more. It will enable a variety of Indian and Western PGMs to be integrated with the SU-30 and end the reliance on Russian AAMs etc. Ideally a collaboration with Leonardo should include BAE Systems who are first rate integrators and also developed ECM and EA systems for diverse fighters including the F-35. If such a JV Uttam radar can also be used for EA and ECMs, then the SU-30 will become truly formidable for the rest of it's life. While the engines are problematic and have a short life span, I think upgrading the engines is not a cost effective measure at this stage. If India does decide to participate in the Tempest program then BAE System's collaboration with any Uttam JV project will become a formality as if I am not mistaken, BAE Systems is the prime contractor/integrator for the Tempest program.
Yes. It will allow the MKI to fire all kinds of European, Russian, and Indian munitions. I also think engine upgrades will happen. IAF and MoD should go the whole hog on the MKI since it will still be our primary air superiority fighter for the next decade.

Having said all that, one question is, will the Europeans agree to partner with us on a radar to be mounted on a Russian platform, and that too fire Russian weapons from it? Answer can be that the mission and flight computers of the MKI be separated. We can keep the Russian flight computers and obviously upgrade it with our inputs to greatly reduce pilot workload. Lessons from the Rafale are valuable here. Similarly, DARE has built mission computers for the LCA which can be improved, scaled up and used on the MKI. This mission computer is what will interface with the new radar, weapons, amongst other gadgets. These improvements will make the MKI a very, very formidable platform, with hopefully long range strike capabilities like the Rafale.

A Modular Data Processing unit with a high degree of sensor fusion like the Rafale is in the works for the MWF. Should come in by the second half of the decade. Once that happens, it can also be ported into the MKI for unmatched capabilities.
 

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