Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[daya]

Pakistan only challenged India when they caught India off guard

If these lines are true, the AOC in c should have been sacked.

 

[no smoking]

If we already have the technology of AL-31 why can’t we modify it and improve it to make more reliable engines
And 2nd thing if we had the technology of AL-31 why can’t we make an aero engine of 90KN thrust ?
I don’t believe that Russians have transferred the technology of AL-31

Of course Russians have transferred the technology of AL-31. But this technology is all about manufacturing, nothing more.

 

[johnq]

Of course Russians have transferred the technology of AL-31. But this technology is all about manufacturing, nothing more.

No they didn't.

 

[no smoking]

No they didn't.

Then how did India get the capability to produce AL-31 within her own country?

 

[LDev]

Then how did India get the capability to produce AL-31 within her own country?

HAL produces some of the non critical engine parts and sources them from various suppliers in India. However the critical components like alloy and ceramic blocks which are subject to intense heat in the core are imported. While you can reverse engineer an engine in terms of dimensions, by measuring all parts, clearances, the challenge is in materials. The alloys, ceramics , that are used to make critical components like turbines and blades are not easily manufactured - much of that material creation/treatment process is a closely held secret. Replicating the process can be very tough even with complete laboratory analysis of the chemical composition of turbine blades, for example - you still don't know the exact process and duration of treatment and heat applied for the manufacture by the OEM. So yes, HAL in India assembles the engines and even machines the alloy and ceramic blocks which are imported into components as per designs supplied by the Russians. But to build an entire engine in India you have to master materials science.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Do you understand what does Context mean?? I was saying in context of a war.
When did I say Paki or China have its equivalent?
I meant to say, Rafale alone can't decide the fate of a war. There are many more aspects which contributes largely. Like Geography, None could negate advantage of a landscape but you can negate the effect of Machine by using counter measures. So Rafale is no silver bullet though it will certainly increase our capability.
Silver bullet= Brahmastra ( loosely )= never missed.

By the way, Why Su-30mki needs western upgrade to stay relevant?? Why not Russian or Indian??

Do you think the IAF does not know this? Of course there are tactics and scenarios. The IAF has held it’s ground based in tactics and scenarios for the past 59 years. We’ve had to be superior in tactics and scenarios because we had bad equipment. Only now has the IAF started receiving superior equipment. With good tactics, which is the IAF is very much capable of developing, the rafale IS a silver bullet.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Well in subcontinent it is a silver bullet, there is nothing in Paki or Chinese arsenal matching it other than probably J 20. SU 30mki need a western equipment upgrade if it wants to remain relevant.

J20 doesn’t come close to the rafale.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

The pic probably is for representation purpose only. Doesn't look like a Su to me

You should know it. That’s a tejas.

 

[johnq]

J20 doesn’t come close to the rafale.

Chinese stealth/material technology is two generations behind the US. Just because something "looks stealthy" to amateur observers doesn't mean it is stealthy. I don't think Indians realize how much of Chinese shiny brochure specs is hot air and psy ops. But the Chinese have fooled themselves into believing their own superiority in weapons technology because of the CCP propaganda echo chamber that they live in, similar to North Korea. The greatest liar is one who convinces even himself that his lie is the truth. And the Chinese are the greatest liars. So I am not surprised that the SU-30MKI's radar was able to track the J-20, regardless of whatever excuse the Chinese give, and I will not be surprised when Indian jammers disable the J-20's radar. Chinese pilots suck too, as most of their training is in simulators because the PLAAF doesn't like to risk crashes.

 

[Neptune]

Chinese stealth/material technology is two generations behind the US. Just because something "looks stealthy" to amateur observers doesn't mean it is stealthy. I don't think Indians realize how much of Chinese shiny brochure specs is hot air and psy ops. But the Chinese have fooled themselves into believing their own superiority in weapons technology because of the CCP propaganda echo chamber that they live in, similar to North Korea. The greatest liar is one who convinces even himself that his lie is the truth. And the Chinese are the greatest liars. So I am not surprised that the SU-30MKI's radar was able to track the J-20, regardless of whatever excuse the Chinese give, and I will not be surprised when Indian jammers disable the J-20's radar. Chinese pilots suck too, as most of their training is in simulators because the PLAAF doesn't like to risk crashes.

It’s never good to underestimate your enemy. The J-20 uses the Luneburg lens, that devise is especially made for aircraft like the F-22 and J-20 to be seen on radar and to masque the actual RCS. External fuel tanks have also been spotted on J-20s.

The J-20 also is “stealthy”. It follows all the basic concepts of RCS reduction. It will be extremely difficult to detect. Even a J-10 can be a real threat especially in large formations combined with AWACS. Even somewhat outdated aircraft can shoot down a much more modern aircraft if those more modern aircraft are ambushed and outnumbered.

Do Chinese aircraft have radar? Yes. Do Chinese aircraft have missiles and bombs? Yes. Then they are capable of inflicting damage.

 

[johnq]

It’s never good to underestimate your enemy. The J-20 uses the Luneburg lens, that devise is especially made for aircraft like the F-22 and J-20 to be seen on radar and to masque the actual RCS. External fuel tanks have also been spotted on J-20s.

The J-20 also is “stealthy”. It follows all the basic concepts of RCS reduction. It will be extremely difficult to detect. Even a J-10 can be a real threat especially in large formations combined with AWACS. Even somewhat outdated aircraft can shoot down a much more modern aircraft if those more modern aircraft are ambushed and outnumbered.

Do Chinese aircraft have radar? Yes. Do Chinese aircraft have missiles and bombs? Yes. Then they are capable of inflicting damage.

The J-20 is not stealthy, it has a low RCS in x-band from the front. Due to its use of canards in the front, it can readily be tracked by longer wavelength radar such as S and L bands from all aspects, and even by longer-ranged x-band radar such as the Bars on the SU-30MKI, albeit at reduced ranges only from the front, and at longer ranges from other angles. The whole Luneberg lens thing is another Chinese propaganda PR spin.
If you were to really design a fully stealth aircraft from the ground up, you would never put canards (or anything with small features and sharp angles) in the front, as that will be picked up by longer wave radar due to resonance effect.
But the Chinese did not even attempt that because it's pointless when you don't have the material technology for that level of stealth. We are supposed to believe that China has achieved the same level of material technology and stealth as the US due to a bunch of computer hacks, but this is just more Chinese propaganda.
Even Chinese radar technology is two decades behind the US, which is why the Pakistan Air Force always chooses western radars over Chinese ones on its JF-17 and other aircraft. Just having a bunch of TR modules and calling it an AESA is not enough, if it has crap brains (software, hardware, artificial intelligence algorithms). That is how I know that the J-20 radar can be jammed by Indian ECM.
The problem with Chinese propaganda is that the Chinese fanboys recite it to themselves so much in their CCP propaganda echo chambers that they start to believe their own BS.
But you ask anyone knowledgable enough in the west or India about J-20 or other shiny Chinese toys and they will laugh.

 

[A chauhan]

Some info :-

 

[vishnugupt]

Do you think the IAF does not know this? Of course there are tactics and scenarios. The IAF has held it’s ground based in tactics and scenarios for the past 59 years. We’ve had to be superior in tactics and scenarios because we had bad equipment. Only now has the IAF started receiving superior equipment. With good tactics, which is the IAF is very much capable of developing, the rafale IS a silver bullet.

Sir ji, with due respect, Kindly let us know in which Era/time IAF don't have superior machines/jets?? Please be logical not rhetorical.
Secondly, I will rather say Brahmos missile a "Silver bullet" so kindly throw some light how Rafale would be a silver bullet in a event of War.

 

[johnq]

Chinese fifth generation warfare is all about winning without fighing by intimidating the enemy.
The J-20 doesn't really exist as it is portrayed in those graphically-enhanced images distributed by the Chinese internet army, and the technology behind it isn't that great either. Same goes for the graphically-enhanced images of Chinese missiles and bombs. They can all be jammed, just as the US GPS was jammed in the Gulf wars. The truth is that the Chinese military technology showcased by Chinese fanboys is a kind of psy ops facade created to intimidate, but it doesn't really exist anywhere in that form except on those graphically-enhanced images. But I think the PLA knows that the Indian military has figured this out, so now they are stuck.

 

[The Maverick]

Su30mki has strengths great range fire power multiple load outs of bvr and super agile . And we have vast numbers .

It also has shortcomings
Maintenance nitemare so numbers eroded
Russian bvr are not effective as advertised
Radar and ew suites have been surpassed by other nations so mki needs mlu
Massive rcs.

Rafale is superb all rounder
Great range load
Super radar and ew suites and weapons
Very efficient
But way to costly to buy

I would swop 120 rafales for 250 mki all day

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Su30mki has strengths great range fire power multiple load outs of bvr and super agile . And we have vast numbers .

It also has shortcomings
Maintenance nitemare so numbers eroded
Russian bvr are not effective as advertised
Radar and ew suites have been surpassed by other nations so mki needs mlu
Massive rcs.

Rafale is superb all rounder
Great range load
Super radar and ew suites and weapons
Very efficient
But way to costly to buy

I would swop 120 rafales for 250 mki all day

I don’t know why Rafales are considered super duper fighters yes they’re better than Su30mki but compare them with Tejas all the modern systems and subsystems like AESA Radars , reliable engines , Fly by wire system , onboard mission computer etc are also present in LCA Tejas
Even if there are some shortcomings like range or payload then it is going to be addressed in Tejas MK2
And Tejas has 90% availability, maintenance is cheap and has seen zero crash since it’s induction in Airforce

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Sir ji, with due respect, Kindly let us know in which Era/time IAF don't have superior machines/jets?? Please be logical not rhetorical.
Secondly, I will rather say Brahmos missile a "Silver bullet" so kindly throw some light how Rafale would be a silver bullet in a event of War.

All eras. Compared to the pakis, we got a shitty deal. If you’re going to give me an example of the mig29 locking on to f16’s during Kargil, please don’t. That was an incident that happened because we got a superior missiles from the Russians.
As a platform, F16 has been superior to sukhois or m in terms of capabilities and technology. The reason IAF was able to maintain superiority is because of all kinds of expensive Israeli mods which was based on western platforms.
For the first time ever, the rafale is offered as a complete package. Top notch EW systems, ‘true’ omnirole capabilities, terrain hugging modes, superb bvr capabilities. We will never get something with this much capabilities from the Russians because they don’t have anything like it. This is why there should be more orders for the rafale. IN this process, AMCA should also borrow heavily from the rafale. Could you please be more logical and prove how India had superior planes compared to its neighbors ever?

integration of Brahmos to sukhoi is a silver bullet. You should also know that the integration of rafale to Brahmos is also possible. Very much so. Weather they do it or not is a political call.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

All eras. Compared to the pakis, we got a shitty deal. If you’re going to give me an example of the mig29 locking on to f16’s during Kargil, please don’t. That was an incident that happened because we got a superior missiles from the Russians.
As a platform, F16 has been superior to sukhois or m in terms of capabilities and technology. The reason IAF was able to maintain superiority is because of all kinds of expensive Israeli mods which was based on western platforms.
For the first time ever, the rafale is offered as a complete package. Top notch EW systems, ‘true’ omnirole capabilities, terrain hugging modes, superb bvr capabilities. We will never get something with this much capabilities from the Russians because they don’t have anything like it. This is why there should be more orders for the rafale. IN this process, AMCA should also borrow heavily from the rafale. Could you please be more logical and prove how India had superior planes compared to its neighbors ever?

integration of Brahmos to sukhoi is a silver bullet. You should also know that the integration of rafale to Brahmos is also possible. Very much so. Weather they do it or not is a political call.

What has Rafales got which Tejas doesn’t have apart from Meteors ?

 

[Tridev123]

What has Rafales got which Tejas doesn’t have apart from Meteors ?

Bro, all of us love the Tejas but let not our love cloud reality.
The Tejas mk1 version was visualised as a replacement for the Mig-21 and our good experience with the small Gnat shaped our thinking to a certain extent.

The Rafales is a much bigger and heavier twin engine plane.
Comparing them is like comparing oranges and apples. It is also not fair to the Tejas mk1. The Tejas mk1 has met its expectations to a very large extent and surpasses the Mig21. So it is a success. Let us not degrade its success by expecting it to match a twin engine medium heavy fighter.

We know you mean well but even the far bigger Tejas mk2 will have a hard time equalling the Rafale. Our proposed twin engine Omni Role Combat Aircraft based on the TEDBF will be in the same class as the Rafale.

One cardinal truth we must not overlook is that a single engine fighter is less reliable than a twin engine fighter. The assumption being that even if one engine fails in a twin engine fighter the remaining working engine can enable the fighter to return to base for a safe landing. There are many other advantages of a twin engine heavier fighter as increased payload capability, more on board power for use etc

Both single engine and twin engine planes have their own role to play and one cannot replace the other.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Bro, all of us love the Tejas but let not our love cloud reality.
The Tejas mk1 version was visualised as a replacement for the Mig-21 and our good experience with the small Gnat shaped our thinking to a certain extent.

The Rafales is a much bigger and heavier twin engine plane.
Comparing them is like comparing oranges and apples. It is also not fair to the Tejas mk1. The Tejas mk1 has met its expectations to a very large extent and surpasses the Mig21. So it is a success. Let us not degrade its success by expecting it to match a twin engine medium heavy fighter.

We know you mean well but even the far bigger Tejas mk2 will have a hard time equalling the Rafale. Our proposed twin engine Omni Role Combat Aircraft based on the TEDBF will be in the same class as the Rafale.

One cardinal truth we must not overlook is that a single engine fighter is less reliable than a twin engine fighter. The assumption being that even if one engine fails in a twin engine fighter the remaining working engine can enable the fighter to return to base for a safe landing. There are many other advantages of a twin engine heavier fighter as increased payload capability, more on board power for use etc

Both single engine and twin engine planes have their own role to play and one cannot replace the other.

I am not saying That Tejas is bigger or Heavier than Rafales
Both are different aircrafts meant for different purpose (Tejas is made for point defence)
but i am asking what exceptional capabilities does Rafales have which Tejas doesn’t have ?
Because Tejas also has AESA Radars, quadriplex digital fly by wire system Israeli jamming pods etc