Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[ABHINANDAN]

Several layers of biometric security protect one of India’s most secretive military laboratories in Bengaluru, housed in a building where there are unsually low noise levels at all time. It’s an almost modest level of sound for an institution that has put India on a global map for equipment that no country will sell to India without unacceptable conditions. And it is here, at the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) that the Indian Air Force’s most formidable jet, the Su-30MKI is being given sharper teeth than it has ever had before.

The Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), the mother body of the DARE, has a rough time dealing with a reputation for waste and delays. To be sure, most criticism it faces is justified. Which is perhaps why it’s always heartening to hear about success. Scientists quietly working behind the scenes on small projects that are truly contributing to the lofty ideal of self-reliance. The story your correspondent reports on today isn’t doing just that — it’s also set to save the Indian Air Force precious capital going into the future.

It all begins with the Russian SAP-518 jammer pod that Moscow supplied with the Su-30MKI. After grappling for years with the pod, the Indian Air Force finally in 2015 realised it simply couldn’t use them for two reasons. One, they were heavy — and when slung onto wingtip hardpoints, they cut into flying envelope like a butcher’s knife.

‘With the Russian pods, the Sukhoi is basically a transport aircraft,’ one of the scientists says.

The second issue is even worse. The IAF realised the SAP-518 pod hadn’t been properly interfacing with the indigenous on-board radar warning receiver (RWR), therefore killing pilots’ chances to exploit both systems fully. While the reasons why the IAF took their time remains unclear (but at one level understandable), DARE stepped in immediately, offering to help. The result is the pod you see those three scientists standing next to in the photograph above.

DARE’s High Band Jammer (HBJ) pod begins dummy carriage trials in six months on an IAF Su-30MKI, with full integration within the year. By 2019, DARE has committed to seeing the pod become fully operational with the IAF’s Flanker fleet.

Significantly, the HBJ pod will be a fully indigenous one. A DARE scientist explains that the HBJ pod currently has th

ree major systems: the integrated EW suite, the active array phased transmit-receive unit and the cooling system. While the first two have been rapidly developed in-house, the complex cooling system is in process, with DARE sourcing an Israeli system for the moment. The team says they’ll have a fully functional Indian cooling system on the HBJ pod before full integration trials by the end of the year.

Better still, the HBJ pod, the scientists tell Livefist, will spawn a family of EW sensors and systems for platforms like the LCA Tejas, MiG-29 and any other fighter the IAF chooses to operate.

The Indian Air Force, which has embraced the wares from DARE more than equipmentfrom most other DRDO labs is expectedly thrilled. An IAF Su-30MKI pilot at the show confirmed that the HBJ pod was a ‘very promising system’ and that ‘more than anything, it is our own in-house development, so I don’t have to run to the Russians if something doesn’t work’.

A DARE scientist associated with the project tells a familiar story: Russia’s unwillingness to share codes (or its insistence on an additional commercial understanding) that could have helped manage the interfacing issues between the SAP-518 pod and Indian RWR better and faster.

Incidentally, the indigenous DARE RWR on the IAF’s Su-30MKIs will also be

replaced soon. The lab is in final testing of an all digital RWR (the existing system is analog) christened ‘Dhruti’ that will begin ground testing in May this year, followed by a phased installation across the fleet.

DARE is one of the DRDO’s most low-profile laboratories and also one of its most successful. Its systems populate virtually every combat aircraft currently in service, including missile approach warning systems, mission computers and avionics of every kind.

A final little flourish from the unassuming DARE stand at Aero India is the SIVA pod, a development from the nineties that didn’t quite work out and was quietly abandoned. Recently, scientists dusted out from the corner of a DARE warehouse when a team of scientists suddenly realised they could help the people at BrahMos save a penny on testing the airborne seeker on the BrahMos-A.




With the new DRDL-led imaging and monopulse RF seeker (IMR, for a future variant of the BrahMos) fitted into the Siva pod in a matter of days (the DRDL had tendered out for the integration process), the pod was quickly slung onto a Su-30MKI and sent up for the required airborne tests. It was an immediate success, with BrahMos Corp. sending a special word of thanks to the DARE team. Without that flash of brilliance from DARE, BrahMos would have had to hot-step it to Russia or elsewhere to get a testbed. And the Siva pod would have forever remained a failed relic from DARE’s early days. Instead it is now a valuable, cheap test-bed for high-performance systems.

‘Now we have a very capable in-house testbed capable of testing a variety of electronics and systems in the airborne regime. This is the beginning of a testbed capability that is normally very expensive to hire. It will be finetuned and evolved before being offered as a full-fledged service, perhaps even to foreign customers,’ says a DRDO officer.

EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI - Livefist

Several layers of biometric security protect one of India's most secretive military laboratories in Bengaluru, housed in a building where there are unsually low noise levels at all time. It's an almost modest level of sound for an institution that has put India…

www.livefistdefence.com

 

[WolfPack86]

New Engine for #Indian Super-30 is Ready

 

[Tridev123]

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New Engine for #Indian Super-30 is Ready

The Su30mki upgrade is long overdue. It is a beast of a plane but needs improvement in a few areas. One we need a real long range air to air missile at least range greater than the AIM-120C which Pakistan has. Two we need to find ways to reduce its large RCS. Special coatings(don't know if already applied) to reduce radar waves reflection. And an Spectra like suite to spoof enemy radars. How much we can reduce the RCS is to be seen.
An AESA radar is also envisaged for the Super Su30mki. The Russians aim to turn the Su30mki into an Su35S through the upgrades. The addition of a new high thrust engine may result in increase in the total payload capacity. Probably even super cruise capability without engaging after burners may result with the new engine.
With a higher thrust engine more Brahmos cruise missiles can be carried.

 

[aerokan]

Why just izdeliye 117S instead of izdeliye 30 for the super upgrade? If we are going to use so many engines over the lifetime.. it may make sense to partially fund the engine development even if we don't get any engine tech IP or visibility. Just an agreement that the engine should not to be sold to enemies of India like China or Turkey. Maybe get a discount while parallely developing our own engine. Will have our asses covered even if things don't go as planned. We would have an engine to fall back on. I get the difficulty of variable cycle part, difficulty of changing engine for a given design, reliability of russian engines.. blah blah.. it might be a win-not lose (not exactly win-win) scenario for russia-india co-op in this space. just a wild thought

 

[Neptune]

The Su30mki upgrade is long overdue. It is a beast of a plane but needs improvement in a few areas. One we need a real long range air to air missile at least range greater than the AIM-120C which Pakistan has. Two we need to find ways to reduce its large RCS. Special coatings(don't know if already applied) to reduce radar waves reflection. And an Spectra like suite to spoof enemy radars. How much we can reduce the RCS is to be seen.
An AESA radar is also envisaged for the Super Su30mki. The Russians aim to turn the Su30mki into an Su35S through the upgrades. The addition of a new high thrust engine may result in increase in the total payload capacity. Probably even super cruise capability without engaging after burners may result with the new engine.
With a higher thrust engine more Brahmos cruise missiles can be carried.

For missiles Russia (Vympel) has the R-77-1 which has a 110km range. Russia is also developing or already has the K-77M and other long range missiles for the SU-57 which have around 200km range or greater. These can probably be integrated on the super MKI.

For RCS there is (some but little) that can be done for the side RCS of Sukhois due to the 90 degree angles, but the frontal RCS can be reduced, SU-35 does use some RAM coating in certain areas like around intakes. The canopy can be coated in indium-tin-oxide or other elements to reduce or illuminate RCS due to the cavity of the canopy. Less metals and more composites are also helpful but probably the most effective method would be serrated edges. The Rafale uses this extensively. As radar waves travel along the surface of an aircraft, serrated edges redirects the radar waves away.


Notice the hundreds of serrations:

A closer look.

 

[Tridev123]

For missiles Russia (Vympel) has the R-77-1 which has a 110km range. Russia is also developing or already has the K-77M and other long range missiles for the SU-57 which have around 200km range or greater. These can probably be integrated on the super MKI.

For RCS there is (some but little) that can be done for the side RCS of Sukhois due to the 90 degree angles, but the frontal RCS can be reduced, SU-35 does use some RAM coating in certain areas like around intakes. The canopy can be coated in indium-tin-oxide or other elements to reduce or illuminate RCS due to the cavity of the canopy. Less metals and more composites are also helpful but probably the most effective method would be serrated edges. The Rafale uses this extensively. As radar waves travel along the surface of an aircraft, serrated edges redirects the radar waves away.


Notice the hundreds of serrations:

View attachment 58909


A closer look.


View attachment 58910

Question. Why were new long range bvr missiles not used on Su30mki's for Balakot operations and post Balakot encounter. Why didn't our Su30mki's fire their bvr's at Pak F16's if we had Bvr's greater in range than the AMRAAM 120C.Should we not have purchased new Russian extra long range bvr missiles earlier as we knew the Paks had Aim120c for many years.

If some RCS reduction can be done, great. Can we develop something like Spectra for the Su30mki's or is it too difficult.

Once the Super Sukhoi is in with long range AAM we probably don't need to use the Rafale for ops against Pakistan. The Rafales can be reserved for China. The Super Su30mki's will be better than the Block 52 F16's. Forget about the junk JF17.

 

[Neptune]

Question. Why were new long range bvr missiles not used on Su30mki's for Balakot operations and post Balakot encounter. Why didn't our Su30mki's fire their bvr's at Pak F16's if we had Bvr's greater in range than the AMRAAM 120C.Should we not have purchased new Russian extra long range bvr missiles earlier as we knew the Paks had Aim120c for many years.

The same reason F-16 didn’t fire Aim-120s at SU-30MKIs that were used as diversions during the Balakot strikes. F-16 were outnumbered, unprepared and probably didn’t have the altitude. Fast forwarding to the next day, the SU-30s were only at 15k feet, at that altitude the range of the R-77 will never reach its maximum range. Moreover the higher F-16s would degrade the R-77s range ever further. Imagine an R-77 being fired at from 15k feet trying to hit a target at 40k feet while that target is turning ‘cold’. It would be impossible...the SU-30 would probably need to get within 20-25km to actually get a hit.

Advertised range for missiles is just theoretical range where the missile flies at the optimal altitude, in a straight course until it burns out. In combat even a slight turn from an aircraft can cause missiles to lose considerable range by ‘bleeding’ speed. To recaps and expand on the topic of missile ranges: There are many variables to a missiles range like altitude of enemy aircraft/altitude of firing aircraft, range of enemy aircrafts and direction of enemy aircraft.

If some RCS reduction can be done, great. Can we develop something like Spectra for the Su30mki's or is it too difficult.

How would I know?

India has many scientists and enough money and experience with the MKI and Tejas programs as well as dozens of other projects that it can probably build a good defensive suit. India is actually very unique in that many countries like Israel, France, Russia and even America will sell top of the line weapons and often assist in developing technologies. India is also free buy a lot of technology in the semiconductor industry that other countries like China and Russia and even Iran is barred from buying.

 

[Tridev123]

The same reason F-16 didn’t fire Aim-120s at SU-30MKIs that were used as diversions during the Balakot strikes. F-16 were outnumbered, unprepared and probably didn’t have the altitude. Fast forwarding to the next day, the SU-30s were only at 15k feet, at that altitude the range of the R-77 will never reach its maximum range. Moreover the higher F-16s would degrade the R-77s range ever further. Imagine an R-77 being fired at from 15k feet trying to hit a target at 40k feet while that target is turning ‘cold’. It would be impossible...the SU-30 would probably need to get within 20-25km to actually get a hit.

Advertised range for missiles is just theoretical range where the missile flies at the optimal altitude, in a straight course until it burns out. In combat even a slight turn from an aircraft can cause missiles to lose considerable range by ‘bleeding’ speed. To recaps and expand on the topic of missile ranges: There are many variables to a missiles range like altitude of enemy aircraft/altitude of firing aircraft, range of enemy aircrafts and direction of enemy aircraft.






How would I know?

India has many scientists and enough money and experience with the MKI and Tejas programs as well as dozens of other projects that it can probably build a good defensive suit. India is actually very unique in that many countries like Israel, France, Russia and even America will sell top of the line weapons and often assist in developing technologies. India is also free buy a lot of technology in the semiconductor industry that other countries like China and Russia and even Iran is barred from buying.

I had a wrong assumption that you were connected to DRDO or some defence laboratory. Certainly if you are not connected you wouldn't have a clue to the technology. I did not want to embarrass you.
It's certainly a and .
Expecting too much from you.

 

[Neptune]

@The Maverick I seen your thread that was locked. Your claims are ridiculous.

Firstly, India has locked into Pakistani F-16s with the much less capable MiG-29s in the past. Secondly in 2015 Russian SU-30s maintained a lock on Turkish F-16s for 5 minutes, thirdly SU-30MKIs have trained against F-16s, F-15s, Typhoons and more. They never had issues getting radar locks, in fact it would be impossible to even get a gun kill without radar because the gun is slaved to the radar.

https://theaviationist.com/2015/10/...ace-flanker-locks-on-tuaf-f-16-for-5-minutes/


You’re also wrong about the jammers. The jammers used on the MKIs are not Russian as you erroneously claimed in another post. They are Israeli and very effective according to American pilots that trained against MKIs.

The part about the MKI and not using missiles is the most misunderstood and falsely propagated rumors floating around especially in Pakistan. The MKI was outnumbered and didn’t have much of a chance to do anything but fly defensive CAPs. The real reason it didn’t fire any missiles was because the MKIs were at 15,000 feet while the F-16 were at 40,000 feet. Thus the R-77 would have never been able to exploit its full range at those altitudes. Even worse is that it’s range would decrease even further if the missiles were trying to hit higher altitude targets.

People forget Pakistani F-16 didn’t bother firing missiles (because they couldn’t) at MKIs the day prior. Did the F-16 radar and AIM-120c5s suddenly fail? No, but Pakistani F-16s were in unfavorable circumstance during Balakot.

 

[spikey360]

A vicious campaign has begun already probably by the Chinese trolls which seek to downplay the MKI so that the confidence of the public in MKIs wane. As a forum with many people having knowledge about the MKI much above the average, members should actively flag disinformation posts whenever they see one.

The latest being the claim that the MKIs could not lock on to F16s, which is the biggest lie I've heard in a long time. The F-16s ran away as soon as the MKIs came into the theatre.

 

[patriots]

The misinformation that su30 s bvr out ranged....etc are spread by Indian media....
Su30 now has 3 bvrs , don't know whether any jet has 3 types of bvr carried.

R77
R27
Astra....
And su30 can carry 2 types of wvr.
R73
Mica ir(recent report of mica trial from su30)

 

[Tumba]

The misinformation that su30 s bvr out ranged....etc are spread by Indian media....
Su30 now has 3 bvrs , don't know whether any jet has 3 types of bvr carried.

R77
R27
Astra....
And su30 can carry 2 types of wvr.
R73
Mica ir(recent report of mica trial from su30)

t MKI has comparable BVRs in 100 km range now to paf F-16..Aim120C5

R-77-1 shud give us almost similar range if fired at similar variables of altitude, speed etc. though here Aim-120C5 might have better seeker at closing distances than Russian missile.

R-27 do have greater range than 120C5 but dont know abt its ability to target an agile fighter like F-16

Astra should also be comparable to R-77-1

I think MKI should give it more edge in ECM environment though to fool 120C5 which latest Paf F-16 lacks.

The edge MKI will truly gain is with Astra MK2 with duel solid pulse motors more range and better performance in closing stage than Aim120C5 but I think Mk2 will take some years to be deployed

 

[FGFAPilot1]

Anyone citing coupta or shuklaw videos claiming to be an expert opinion on fighter aircraft deserves a ban.

 

[patriots]

t MKI has comparable BVRs in 100 km range now to paf F-16..Aim120C5

R-77-1 shud give us almost similar range if fired at similar variables of altitude, speed etc. though here Aim-120C5 might have better seeker at closing distances than Russian missile.

R-27 do have greater range than 120C5 but dont know abt its ability to target an agile fighter like F-16

Astra should also be comparable to R-77-1

I think MKI should give it more edge in ECM environment though to fool 120C5 which latest Paf F-16 lacks.

The edge MKI will truly gain is with Astra MK2 with duel solid pulse motors more range and better performance in closing stage than Aim120C5 but I think Mk2 will take some years to be deployed

Astra is better than aim 120 c.....said by hvtiaf sir.
In twitter Nambiar sir said astra is second meteor in iaf bvr capability.......
Again astra mk2 will have same or slight more range .....than astra mk1 but with higher nez
Sfdr will be a meteor class missile (I heard a range of 150 km,)
So
Astra is better than aim120c5 and sd10 ....
Don't know about pl15

 

[LDev]

The misinformation that su30 s bvr out ranged....etc are spread by Indian media....
Su30 now has 3 bvrs , don't know whether any jet has 3 types of bvr carried.

R77
R27
Astra....
And su30 can carry 2 types of wvr.
R73
Mica ir(recent report of mica trial from su30)

I am reproducing below remarks made by Manohar Parrikar in December 2017 defending the 36 Rafale deal:

[BEGIN QUOTE]Parrikar also said that the Indian Air Force was strategically on the backfoot compared to its Pakistani counterparts vis-a-vis beyond visual range missiles and that the lacunae was plugged with the purchase of the Meteor missile, under the deal.

He claimed that between 1999 and 2014 till Narendra Modi came, Pakistan had acquired a capacity of 100km range, whereas India had upgraded their BVR weaponry to only 60 km on the Su-30s. “So we were now, in danger of being shot down by Pakistani fighters staying 100 km away and not being able to retaliate. Meteor does take care of that with 150 km range,” he said.[/END QUOTE]

Basically Parrikar said that the BVR advantage that India had during Kargil was frittered away by the UPA Government as Pakistan acquired BVR missiles during the period after 1999 when it got AMRAAM missiles from the US which outranged what the SU-30 carried at that time. And what Parrikar feared would happen actually did happen in Feb 2019. Anyway now the Meteor on the Rafale has fixed that problem.

Some people think buying fighter jets is like buying dal: Manohar Parrikar attacks Congress

 

[Tumba]

Astra is better than aim 120 c.....said by hvtiaf sir.
In twitter Nambiar sir said astra is second meteor in iaf bvr capability.......
Again astra mk2 will have same or slight more range .....than astra mk1 but with higher nez
Sfdr will be a meteor class missile (I heard a range of 150 km,)
So
Astra is better than aim120c5 and sd10 ....
Don't know about pl15

Astra Mk1 is comparable to Aim120C5 and. R-77-1

but I give more edge to Aim120C5 due to superior American Seeker tech.
R-77-1 has most advanced boosters out of three but lacks in seeker tech in comparison of US ones...
More or less they both are equal both must have similar NEZ ..

Astra MK1 on other hand in comparison of both above missiles lacks more mature seeker tech(we only recently developed our own seeker for Astra we were earlier using R-77 seeker imported from russia which is better than R-77 but not sure can have more mature tech than R-77-1)

Astra MK2 will have similar range as Aim-120C7 or D thats around 140+ Kms... and more mature seeker than MK1 but expected deployment is at Least 3 or 4 years away.

SFDR will have Ramjet so in ideal parameters the range can be 200+ kms but its deployment should be good 6-10 years away...

 

[vishnugupt]

IAF has been vilifying SU30mki a thousand times more since 2015 than Pakistan, China, and SM combined. Moreover, Nobody believes/care what Pakistan, china says.
IAF openly said Mki 3rd generation, poor unreliable engine, Faulty FBW system, old generation Radar, vulnerable for BVR fire due to high RCS, Outdated Russian technology, Outdated avionics, could have done much better if IAF had Rafale during Balakot.

 

[Tumba]

IAF has been vilifying SU30mki a thousand times more since 2015 than Pakistan, China, and SM combined. Moreover, Nobody believes/care what Pakistan, china says.
IAF openly said Mki 3rd generation, poor unreliable engine, Faulty FBW system, old generation Radar, vulnerable for BVR fire due to high RCS, Outdated Russian technology, Outdated avionics, could have done much better if IAF had Rafale during Balakot.

sure please paste sm of the links for same where IAF is doing so

 

[aerokan]

sure please paste sm of the links for same where IAF is doing so

Here is a quote from our dear PM

“Today, the lack of Rafale is being felt,” Modi said. “The country is saying in one voice that had we had the Rafale [fighter jets] now, what all could have happened? Putting self-interest and politics before Rafale has seriously hurt the nation.”

This is after balakot and when we had MKI heavy force. For a PM to say that.. imagine how much brainwashing IAF must have done.

 

[Longewala]

IAF has been vilifying SU30mki a thousand times more since 2015 than Pakistan, China, and SM combined. Moreover, Nobody believes/care what Pakistan, china says.
IAF openly said Mki 3rd generation, poor unreliable engine, Faulty FBW system, old generation Radar, vulnerable for BVR fire due to high RCS, Outdated Russian technology, Outdated avionics, could have done much better if IAF had Rafale during Balakot.

Can we get one simple thing straight: Balakot was nothing about the Su-30 capabilities or lack of it.
It was simply a matter of height.
You take a small child, and place him on a 4th floor balcony while you are on the ground floor.
You each get ten stones to throw at each other.
Who manages the do the most damage?
Does that mean you are weaker than that child?

There were certainly weaknesses thrown up in terms if certain radio and electronic equipment, there is a reason India went out to buy more AAMs etc.
But that's just a democracy fixing it's problems better.

If anything the Napaks should be more worried considering they used up multiple Amraams with that height advantage and missed every one. But then the descendants of Ghazis cannot admit any weakness can they