Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Assassin 2.0]

Al41 is actually a much i.proved engine problem is we have already paid for license production of AL 31. And the engine is basically an upgrade of the same. But still they want high license fees for the new engine .

Correct.
When people say that Su-30mki are having engine issue's and all they don't know that we have in house capabilities to fix them and many of the issues have been fixed too.
Sure SU-30 have engine issue's btw HAL can also indigenously increase thrust of AL-31. Chinese have also increased thrust of their licensed production AL-31 thrust.

Btw F-404 which is very proven engine also comes with it's own flaws if That engine develops some issue's we have to ship that engine back to USA in order to get it fixed.

So everything have pro's and con's.

 

[Abhay Rajput 02]

Here is my assessment of MKI and I happy to be rebutted by the expert as I am not the expert but I gathered information from multiple sources

MKI is not a capable platform for the initial strike or to take enemy initial punch (something we observed on 27th Feb) . Sure it jammed all the incoming missiles but more is expected out of it .
And since it has only PESA and it's avionics are of older generation, during initial attack it is up for easy picking by AMRAAM or by enemy air defence.

However in case of a long war ,when the enemy defence system is compromised and when the BVR will be depleted over the course of war , sooner or later it will come to old school WVR engagement where manuverability will paly a crucial role and then MKI's will be unbeatable and it will easily shoot down all the western/Chinese fighters without breaking a sweat . For instance in all the friendly exercises we have managed to beat the American and Brits easily
MKI is a very potent platform if used as per situation which favours it but in modern world short skirmishes it's best not to use it

Sir ji you are leaving the most important part, it was 2 su30 vs 7/8 f16 in the beginning , after that 3 f16 try to strike with lgb and was meet with mig21 whoch was scrambled . Not to mention after defeating those missiles su30 mki could have easily go for the kill but ROE and not to cross the border was the deciding factor. Sure meteor class missile would help but its nez against retreating fighter will not be 60km

 

[vishnugupt]

No, Russians have said they will upgrade it easy but the cost is really high and also Airforce doesn't want the AL 41 engine offered by the Russians due to poor reliability. For MKI itself up to 900 engines have been developed until know. The main problem with Russian equipment is that all their defence firm's are state owned and they are lax as a result they don't want to redesign engine according to Indian conditions. Example will be the RD 33 engines. If we look from their point they would not want to let go of their money and will keep us invested with engines. I am glad chinese and pak fighters have russian engines. The problem will begin once China would have completely finished their WS 10 WS 10 B WS 15 engine projects.

HAL built more than 900 Saturn AL-31 engines???? who gave you this information ??? Must be some retard from IAF.

HAL Hands Over Fiftieth AL31FP Engine For Su-30MKI To IAF

India’s state-owned aircraft manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has handed over the fiftieth AL31FP engine meant for the Su-30MKI fighter jet to the Indian Air Force (IAF) on Monday. The engine, manufactured from raw materials by Sukhoi Engine Division of HAL in Koraput, Orissa...

www.defenseworld.net

HAL starts manufacturing Saturn AL-31 engine from 2008 onwards which were accepted by IAF much later. which means HAL manufactured at God speed.
whole Koraput unit manufactured around 350 engines of all types

https://hal-india.co.in/Sukhoi%20Engine%20Division%20Koraput/M__140

 

[Assassin 2.0]

HAL starts manufacturing Saturn AL-31 engine from 2008 onwards which were accepted by IAF much later. which means HAL manufactured at God speed.

HAL have manufactured engine for 270 Su-30s in different phases in first faces it was just assembly in second some more local initiative and so on it was gradual process based on ground realities and technical issue's.
But it's true that HAL have manufactured/assembled / some engine with imported and indigenous mix more than 500 engines i guess.


the link which you are sharing says HAL delivered 50 engines is of Phase-4 which means objective of indigenization of the engine as per contract is achieved.
Your link says this.
The engine, manufactured from raw materials by Sukhoi Engine Division of HAL in Koraput, Orissa state has been handed over to IAF in Delhi yesterday as part of celebrations of 70th year of India Russia diplomatic relationship.

“The AL31FP engine powers Su30 MKI and is manufactured from raw material stage. All the components, including heavy forgings are manufactured at HAL”, said Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL. He handed over the documents related to the 50th Raw Material Phase Engine of Su-30MKI to Air Marshal S.B. Deo, VCAS.
The AL31FP engine powers Su30 MKI and is manufactured from raw material stage. All the components, including heavy forgings are manufactured at HAL”, said Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL. He handed over the documents related to the 50th Raw Material Phase Engine of Su-30MKI to Air Marshal S.B. Deo, VCAS.

 

[vishnugupt]

Correct.
When people say that Su-30mki are having engine issue's and all they don't know that we have in house capabilities to fix them and many of the issues have been fixed too.
Sure SU-30 have engine issue's btw HAL can also indigenously increase thrust of AL-31. Chinese have also increased thrust of their licensed production AL-31 thrust.

Btw F-404 which is very proven engine also comes with it's own flaws if That engine develops some issue's we have to ship that engine back to USA in order to get it fixed.

So everything have pro's and con's.

The engine issue is not that big as being shown by corrupt IAF retards. There is hardly any proof where engine failure caused a crash ( maybe a few, Rare failures do occur ). AL31FP needs an overhaul after 1000hrs and a total life of 3000hrs. Which is lesser from the modern variant but you can't say This is an issue? This is what IAF has bought after a thorough evaluation.
Before 2016, SU-30mki has around 55% availability due to longer waiting time for an engine overhaul because HAL has to wait for spare parts from Russia ( this solved by signing another deal for parts ). Actually this the narrative upon IAF has built an issue of engine reliability. this issue help IAF build its case for more import.
in a similar incident, Army declared that the Arjun tank failed in the trial due to engine failure and it was the same engine that has been used by the German Leopard-2 tank. So that's how these issues help Armed forces

 

[vishnugupt]

HAL have manufactured engine for 270 Su-30s in different phases in first faces it was just assembly in second some more local initiative and so on it was gradual process based on ground realities and technical issue's.
But it's true that HAL have manufactured/assembled / some engine with imported and indigenous mix more than 500 engines i guess.


the link which you are sharing says HAL delivered 50 engines is of Phase-4 which means objective of indigenization of the engine as per contract is achieved.
Your link says this.
The engine, manufactured from raw materials by Sukhoi Engine Division of HAL in Koraput, Orissa state has been handed over to IAF in Delhi yesterday as part of celebrations of 70th year of India Russia diplomatic relationship.

“The AL31FP engine powers Su30 MKI and is manufactured from raw material stage. All the components, including heavy forgings are manufactured at HAL”, said Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL. He handed over the documents related to the 50th Raw Material Phase Engine of Su-30MKI to Air Marshal S.B. Deo, VCAS.
The AL31FP engine powers Su30 MKI and is manufactured from raw material stage. All the components, including heavy forgings are manufactured at HAL”, said Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL. He handed over the documents related to the 50th Raw Material Phase Engine of Su-30MKI to Air Marshal S.B. Deo, VCAS.

The link I shared, just to tell that HAL neither Manufactured nor Assembled more than 900 engine. ( Biggest lie by IAF to malign SU-30mki ). The link was not about indigenous or imported though, it does tell us 350 numbers of all types manufactured and 300 overhauled. Hence, 300 engine overhauled for 150 SU-30mki ( Russian manufactured ) rest around 244 engines for the rest of Su-30mki manufactured ( Russian + HAL built ).
Total: 544 engines + few more( Russia + HAL ). So where is the issue??
As par contract, HAL has to indigenize engine manufacturing by 2008/9 but HAL failed and the contract expired so we had imported engine Kitts from Russia till 2015/16 until we signed another contract for spare parts ( As we don't manufacture 100% indigenously ).
HAL started engine manufacturing from 2009 onwards which was accepted by IAF much later ( 15 accepted in 2017 ) so you can calculate how many engines used by SU-30MKi

 

[LDev]

I am baffled by your knowledge. Can you please tell me about sap14? Its sap518 first. I dont think we have sap14 centerline pod Second it was elta pod which wasn't comptaible with russian bars radar. In other words either you can use radar or ew pod but you can't use both. Tarang rwr was solved way back . We have this exact discussion way back when iaf posted the pic of su30 mki with sap518 pod.

My bad, typo. It is the sap-518 not sap-18 and nowhere have I said anything about the sap-14 pod which the IAF does not have. I am also baffled by your assertion that it was the EL-8222 pod that caused the interference with the Tarang RWR. Given below is an excerpt from Shiv Aroor of Livefist way back in 2017. If you have sources which can disprove this and post those sources I will appreciate it:

(BEGIN QUOTE)It all begins with the Russian SAP-518 jammer pod that Moscow supplied with the Su-30MKI. After grappling for years with the pod, the Indian Air Force finally in 2015 realised it simply couldn’t use them for two reasons. One, they were heavy — and when slung onto wingtip hardpoints, they cut into flying envelope like a butcher’s knife.

‘With the Russian pods, the Sukhoi is basically a transport aircraft,’ one of the scientists says.

The second issue is even worse. The IAF realised the SAP-518 pod hadn’t been properly interfacing with the indigenous on-board radar warning receiver (RWR), therefore killing pilots’ chances to exploit both systems fully. While the reasons why the IAF took their time remains unclear (but at one level understandable), DARE stepped in immediately, offering to help. The result is the pod you see those three scientists standing next to in the photograph above.

DARE’s High Band Jammer (HBJ) pod begins dummy carriage trials in six months on an IAF Su-30MKI, with full integration within the year. By 2019, DARE has committed to seeing the pod become fully operational with the IAF’s Flanker fleet.(END QUOTE)

And the source is linked below:

EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI

And the fact that the EL-8222 is the standard EW pod used on the SU-30

(BEGIN QUOTE)Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft Industries is the MKI’s standard EW pod, which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s. The ELTA El/M-8222 Self Protection Pod is a power-managed jammer, air-cooled system with an ESM receiver integrated into the pod. The pod contains an antenna on the forward and aft ends, which receive the hostile RF signal and after processing deliver the appropriate response.(END QUOTE)

And the source for this is linked below publication date appears to be sometime in 2017SU-30 MKI :: INDIA’s FRONTLINE FIGHTER JET:

 

[LDev]

The link I shared, just to tell that HAL neither Manufactured nor Assembled more than 900 engine. ( Biggest lie by IAF to malign SU-30mki ). The link was not about indigenous or imported though, it does tell us 350 numbers of all types manufactured and 300 overhauled. Hence, 300 engine overhauled for 150 SU-30mki ( Russian manufactured ) rest around 244 engines for the rest of Su-30mki manufactured ( Russian + HAL built ).
Total: 544 engines + few more( Russia + HAL ). So where is the issue??
As par contract, HAL has to indigenize engine manufacturing by 2008/9 but HAL failed and the contract expired so we had imported engine Kitts from Russia till 2015/16 until we signed another contract for spare parts ( As we don't manufacture 100% indigenously ).
HAL started engine manufacturing from 2009 onwards which was accepted by IAF much later ( 15 accepted in 2017 ) so you can calculate how many engines used by SU-30MKi

Given below is a link to a very recent interview with Air Marshal Raghu Nambiar. He retired as Western Air Command Chief and was also the pilot who lead the Mirage strikes during Kargil 1999. He talks about the SU-30 and the fact that the total number of AL-30FP engines imported plus manufactured by HAL Koraput is 930 and the fact that the engine is the weak spot in the SU-30. He also speaks of the mid life upgrade which is now required for the aircraft specially an upgraded AESA radar. Check out between 7:45 and 11.15{

 

[Abhay Rajput 02]

My bad, typo. It is the sap-518 not sap-18 and nowhere have I said anything about the sap-14 pod which the IAF does not have. I am also baffled by your assertion that it was the EL-8222 pod that caused the interference with the Tarang RWR. Given below is an excerpt from Shiv Aroor of Livefist way back in 2017. If you have sources which can disprove this and post those sources I will appreciate it:

(BEGIN QUOTE)It all begins with the Russian SAP-518 jammer pod that Moscow supplied with the Su-30MKI. After grappling for years with the pod, the Indian Air Force finally in 2015 realised it simply couldn’t use them for two reasons. One, they were heavy — and when slung onto wingtip hardpoints, they cut into flying envelope like a butcher’s knife.

‘With the Russian pods, the Sukhoi is basically a transport aircraft,’ one of the scientists says.

The second issue is even worse. The IAF realised the SAP-518 pod hadn’t been properly interfacing with the indigenous on-board radar warning receiver (RWR), therefore killing pilots’ chances to exploit both systems fully. While the reasons why the IAF took their time remains unclear (but at one level understandable), DARE stepped in immediately, offering to help. The result is the pod you see those three scientists standing next to in the photograph above.

DARE’s High Band Jammer (HBJ) pod begins dummy carriage trials in six months on an IAF Su-30MKI, with full integration within the year. By 2019, DARE has committed to seeing the pod become fully operational with the IAF’s Flanker fleet.(END QUOTE)

And the source is linked below:

EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI

And the fact that the EL-8222 is the standard EW pod used on the SU-30

(BEGIN QUOTE)Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer developed by Israel Aircraft Industries is the MKI’s standard EW pod, which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s. The ELTA El/M-8222 Self Protection Pod is a power-managed jammer, air-cooled system with an ESM receiver integrated into the pod. The pod contains an antenna on the forward and aft ends, which receive the hostile RF signal and after processing deliver the appropriate response.(END QUOTE)

And the source for this is linked below publication date appears to be sometime in 2017SU-30 MKI :: INDIA’s FRONTLINE FIGHTER JET:

Sir ji i have said it earlier issues with rwr was resolved way back. And you probably don't even know the issues , it was giving many false alarms one of the primary issue it had. Also iaf official twitter handle post sap518 pod on wingtip of su30 mki in 2019. If there were issues then it would have been elta ew pod . i dont want to get into details as i said this topic was discussed quite breifly in the past.

 

[vishnugupt]

Given below is a link to a very recent interview with Air Marshal Raghu Nambiar. He retired as Western Air Command Chief and was also the pilot who lead the Mirage strikes during Kargil 1999. He talks about the SU-30 and the fact that the total number of AL-30FP engines imported plus manufactured by HAL Koraput is 930 and the fact that the engine is the weak spot in the SU-30. He also speaks of the mid life upgrade which is now required for the aircraft specially an upgraded AESA radar. Check out between 7:45 and 11.15{

As expected, it came from an IAF guy. He just gave Wikipedia account.
First, he said HAL has manufactured 930 engines after that he said likey to manufacture 930. he himself is not sure.
In reality it as an estimate that HAL Koraput will eventually manufacture 930 engines from scratch. HAL manufactured 280 engines and overhauled 180 engines by 2014 and manufactured total 350 by 2017 and overhauled 350 engines. At this rate, you can figure out many engines they might have manufactured by 2020

 

[LDev]

As expected, it came from an IAF guy. He just gave Wikipedia account.
First, he said HAL has manufactured 930 engines after that he said likey to manufacture 930. he himself is not sure.
In reality it as an estimate that HAL Koraput will eventually manufacture 930 engines from scratch. HAL manufactured 280 engines and overhauled 180 engines by 2014 and manufactured total 350 by 2017 and overhauled 350 engines. At this rate, you can figure out many engines they might have manufactured by 2020

More likely that Wiki is sourcing the 930 number from Air Marshal Nambiar. In the absence of anyone from HAL willing to go on record about the number of engines manufactured I think that Air Marshal Nambiar has the final say.

 

[vishnugupt]

More likely that Wiki is sourcing the 930 number from Air Marshal Nambiar. In the absence of anyone from HAL willing to go on record about the number of engines manufactured I think that Air Marshal Nambiar has the final say.

This is written much before Nambiar Sir, Source belongs to HAL which is not available now, on a given reference.
As far I can remember Nambiar sir is the same person who gave wrong data regarding Navy Dhruva in recent Navy -HAL controversial talks. Frankly, I don't believe in IAF account most of their stories written by paid journalists
If you want believe in IAF statements then it's up to you. but truth need some substance

 

[omaebakabaka]

No, Russians have said they will upgrade it easy but the cost is really high and also Airforce doesn't want the AL 41 engine offered by the Russians due to poor reliability. For MKI itself up to 900 engines have been developed until know. The main problem with Russian equipment is that all their defence firm's are state owned and they are lax as a result they don't want to redesign engine according to Indian conditions. Example will be the RD 33 engines. If we look from their point they would not want to let go of their money and will keep us invested with engines. I am glad chinese and pak fighters have russian engines. The problem will begin once China would have completely finished their WS 10 WS 10 B WS 15 engine projects.

It's hard to trust anything on what you mentioned....
Russia performed brilliantly in Syria with SU-xx and AL-41F on their su-35's and they are doing just fine in modernizing their fleet to the extent that even USAF is acknowledging. Where does this reliability numbers come from? If IAF is saying that, then that means either Russia is providing 2nd rate engines for export or its just nonsense with no basis.....I can't help but wonder all this kichidi of integration got to be introducing problems when upgrading stuff....everything needs to be tested regressively as we are not the OEM of major components. I think if IAF does not trust Russian's then they should just buy Rafale's in numbers but this kichidi can't be good forever.

AESA is not end all or be all.....IRBIS-E generates 20 KW power and they should get it compared to BARS which is 25% of that power.

 

[omaebakabaka]

As expected, it came from an IAF guy. He just gave Wikipedia account.
First, he said HAL has manufactured 930 engines after that he said likey to manufacture 930. he himself is not sure.
In reality it as an estimate that HAL Koraput will eventually manufacture 930 engines from scratch. HAL manufactured 280 engines and overhauled 180 engines by 2014 and manufactured total 350 by 2017 and overhauled 350 engines. At this rate, you can figure out many engines they might have manufactured by 2020

Manufactured or assembled?

 

[omaebakabaka]

BARS power is heavily classified. You are getting your information from old bars radar. India use an upgraded version of it.

as for AESA radar. It has several advantage over PESA from higher bandwidth , radar gain, higher directivity, range , faster scanning rates, better ECM , ECCM capabilities, LPI (Low Probability of Interception) characteristic, ability to do multiple tasks (search + multiple targets tracking, providing mid-course updates to BVR missiles.) simultaneously, long life cycle , etc.

as for Irbis- E PESA. it's not that of a great radar. It's so call 350km range for a 3m2 target is in a cued-search in a tiny FoV (10°x10°). In volume search it's around 200km.

same range is about 402 km for 1m2 target for AN/APG(v)1 AESA on F 22.

You can gauge a radar technology level of maturity simply by its SAR capability.
Irbis-E has a 3 meter SAR resolution. That's same of F 15 radar in 80s.

We are not going to get APG v1 and and in all honesty BVR has not much proven record at closer to max ranges only claims at best. I am sure UTTAM is not an option anytime soon.....if Russian's are using it with confidence then it can't be so bad. They intercept almost daily foreign aircraft of all kinds. Sukhoi airframes aren't getting any younger either.....I think they should at least evaluate in one or 2 aircrafts and see.....may be IRBIS-E needs Al-41F upgrade to generate that kinda peak power

 

[omaebakabaka]

Also what is the anecdotal RCS of Rafale (over 1 sq.m at what distance?), a while ago I read somewhere that Su-35 picked up F-22 on the RADAR which boasts 0.3 sq.m RCS in Syria, it is quite possible F-22 may have its radar reflectors turned on to hide true capabilities......currently we do not have any a2a missile over 150 km range except for novotar one but that is mostly for AWACS/Refuellers

 

[omaebakabaka]

RCS value of a non stealth plane is always high. Rafale is upward of 1m2 but using spectra it's around 0.06m2.

You think BARS is 50% of IRBIS-E with our upgrade that you mentioned? I think IRBIS-E peak needs al-41F but with that kinda peak power, it will be harder to get jammed (mostly Chinese capability) and still be able to spot j-20. Not sure how much an effect BVR will have in our battles (may be Punjab/Gujarat sector) with our bases and our foes bases located so close to each other literally engagement time in minutes.....thats probably why India went for R-73 vs R-33. Ground radars wont be that helpful for China due to mountainous terrain either to jam us either....so bottom line its IRBIS-E or wait for Russian N036?

 

[omaebakabaka]

China has got su-35's and j-20s and we have Rafales but in limited numbers, I guess we are at slight disadvantage in terms of numbers on paper but terrain favors us and air battle strategy may be the key to take them on...I hope our bars can match their su-35 and j-20 radar.

 

[no smoking]

RCS value of a non stealth plane is always high. Rafale is upward of 1m2 but using spectra it's around 0.06m2.

Really? Obviously you know something that Dassault doesn't know.

"The SPECTRA system carries out reliable long-range detection, identification and localisation of threats, allowing the pilot to instantly select the most effective defensive measures based on combinations of radar jamming, infrared or radar decoying and evasive manoeuvres "

The Rafale carries a wide range of smart and discrete sensors

The Rafale has a wide range of high-tech sensors: RBE2 radar, Front Sector Optronics, SPECTRA, DAMOCLES pod, etc.

www.dassault-aviation.com

 

[Inbredstank2a]

It's hard to trust anything on what you mentioned....
Russia performed brilliantly in Syria with SU-xx and AL-41F on their su-35's and they are doing just fine in modernizing their fleet to the extent that even USAF is acknowledging. Where does this reliability numbers come from? If IAF is saying that, then that means either Russia is providing 2nd rate engines for export or its just nonsense with no basis.....I can't help but wonder all this kichidi of integration got to be introducing problems when upgrading stuff....everything needs to be tested regressively as we are not the OEM of major components. I think if IAF does not trust Russian's then they should just buy Rafale's in numbers but this kichidi can't be good forever.

AESA is not end all or be all.....IRBIS-E generates 20 KW power and they should get it compared to BARS which is 25% of that power.

The plane crashes and the short engine life time with very high spares requirement. RD33 is a poor engine it initially had smoke issues. There are occasional blowouts. Navy rejected Tejas Naval variant because of learning how many times mig29k engine failed and it had to land of a single one. Also read about AL31fp engine performance it has a flight time of 1000hrs after which it needs an overhaul.
Look we aren't talking of Russia here if it crashes we don't have a credible source of putting it forth since media there doesn't question their defense credibility. I am just quoting IAF sources who can be found all over the internet.
We make "khicdhi" of equipment because Russian export variant doesn't suit IA IN IAF requirement and are deemed poor. Many things don't go in Hand with want they want and are available else where. Greatest example is the T90 "Bhisma". The original one recieved had many problem regarding fire control system, engine cooling etc
They are buying Rafael so that they can reduce their reliance on a single source. To get new design inspiration and to get access to western missile which are deemed superior to russian missiles in general.

The AESA craze is because of its high jamming resistance. Multi mode operation. The frequency of change in AESA is really high that can confuse radar warning receiver of its origin. It should be noted that the Chinese are crazy after AESA and all new jets are getting replace by the J16D