Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Akula]

Why India should consider buying 40 more SU 30 MKI?

BY DEFENCEUPDATE



With the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter — the backbone of the air force fleet — nearing the end of its production run, its manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), is taking up a case to build 40 more. If the defence ministry accepts HAL’s proposal, the inventory of the Russian fighter would be enhanced from the planned 272 to 312.

Indian Air Force’s 272 multirole air superiority fighter Sukhoi Su-30MKI fleet might be boosted to 312 if Ministry of Defence and Indian Air Force agree to procure 40 Su-30MKIs more Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and as per latest media reports looking like all three parties will come to a positive consensus after a recent meeting with all concerned parties.

With HAL offering to price the additional Su-30s at just Rs 4.25 billion, the fighter will be barely one-third the cost of the Rafale. According to a Business Standard analysis, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is paying Rs 11.25 billion per Rafale, excluding the price of weapons and logistics.

A Final decision will be taken by end of this year but it is most likely HAL will get a fresh contract for 40 more Su-30MKIs which they are offering at a very competitive price as the country already has required infrastructure and manpower to manufacture them without any additional cost same as previously supplied.

HAL offered to manufacture 40 Su-30MKIs which were modified to carry a Single 2.5-ton BrahMos-A under its Belly. DRDO already has planned to field an 800km ranged BrahMos-A in near future and performance of recent trials of the missile system has showcased that a Game changer weapon system like BrahMos-A can act as a shield against formidable naval adversaries while patroling Indian ocean.

How will the capability of IAF get enhanced with this deal?

IAF has plan to induct 42 su 30 mki to carry Bramhos-A, India can manufacture another 40 aircraft which can carry 2.5-ton Bramhos-A,

The air-launched version of the BrahMos has been downsized to 8 metres and 2,560 kgs. Even so, mounting it on a Su-30 requires reinforcing the aircraft’s underbelly and installing a heavy-duty mounting station. It is easier and better to kit out new Su-30s to carry the BrahMos, rather than carrying out structural modifications to old aircraft.

The IAF is slated to receive 200 air-launched BrahMos-A missiles in the coming years. In order for the Su-30MKI to carry and launch the BrahMos-A, the aircraft’s undercarriage needs to be reinforced and hardened electronic circuitry to withstand the electromagnetic pulses of a nuclear blast — the missile can reportedly carry a nuclear warhead — installed, next to other modifications.

Ministry sources indicate a proposal to build more Su-30s would be considered positively, given the shortfall of IAF fighter squadrons. HAL is currently building the last 23 Su-30s of the 272 it was mandated to build. The IAF’s first 50 Su-30s were built in Russia.

India plans to upgrade its 80 su 30 mki to super su 30 mki .With additional order India can negotiate for much sweater deal from Russia. India has already taken various step to improve the operational serviceability of su 30 mki

India already operates much-advanced version of su 30 mki than China. The enemy cannot ignore 312 aircraft armed with bramhos-M(300 km) & bramhos-A(800 km).With China ramping up and upgrading its flanker fleet.The Indian government should consider this offer seriously.

https://defenceupdate.in/why-india-should-consider-buying-40-more-su-30-mki/

HAL last year proposed a deal of 72 Su-30mki to IAF.

 

[Tupac slayer]

HAL last year proposed a deal of 72 Su-30mki to IAF.

If we go ahead with 72 SU-30MKI, We can replace our Jaguars also fast with modern SU-30MKI. This will also increase the squadrons of Air force. do you think if we order 72 SU-30MKI means no additional Rafales?

 

[Lancer]

I'm a strong proponent of ordering more MKI's (increase sqd strength & more high quality fighters to take on China) but only if they'll come with the Super Sukhoi standards/specs

 

[johnq]

Right now India needs as many fighters as it can get quickly, and keeping the Su-30MKI assembly lines at HAL running is one way to do that. I would suggest keeping the assembly lines running throughout this war to increase the numbers as well as for attrition replacement. There are certain digital signal processor and software upgrades that can be done more quickly than a full upgrade to modernize the avionics. I would also suggest doubling the numbers of refuelling aircraft and AWACS as quickly as possible, even by purchasing second-hand ones.

 

[The Maverick]

I don't want more su30mki

I prefer we upgrade the 80 to super mki even 120 to super mki.

We need 40 more rafales f4 standard

And massive induction of tejas 1 and 2 asap

 

[Shekhar Singh]

I have a question for experts
Can we reduce some weight of Su30 mki using composites and restructuring of wires?
If yes then we can increase TWR without changing it's engine and only AESA radar will be major upgrade required. It is a very complicated task though.
@Bleh

 

[LDev]

I prefer we upgrade the 80 to super mki even 120 to super mki.

The problem is the khichdi of systems on the SU-30. The desi Tarang RWR interfered with the SAP-18 EW pod . To enable the two to work together, India needed the source codes for the SAP-18 pod which the Russians refused to share. So India got the Israeli ELTA EL-8222 pod which Israel uses on its F-15Is. DARE has it's domestic HBJ pod. How ready is it? When can it be installed on the SU-30? At least it will be integrated with the desi Tarang RWR successor, the digital Dhruti. To upgrade an aircraft you need a strong OEM. But Russia is falling further and further behind in it's basic electronic knowledge. It still does not have an operational AESA radar. Upgrading the Bars N011M radar for the Irbis NO35 will be an improvement but the Irbis is still a PESA radar. Any investment in radar upgrades should hold good for at least the next 15 years. Does the IAF want it's SU-30s flying around with PESA radars 15 years from now when probably all the India facing front line fighters of the PAF and PLAAF will have AESA radars? So the answer is really Uttam maybe. But Uttam in it's first iteration for the LCA will not fly for another 2 years at least. And even that timeline is probably elastic. And then a more powerful and larger version of Uttam with many more T/R modules will have to be developed, tested and integrated with the SU-30. That will take another 5-7 years minimum. However if India wants access to the latest western AAMs and PGMs to be integrated with the SU-30, then suppliers of those products will want an Indian radar on the SU-30. There is no easy option for upgrading the SU-30

 

[vishnugupt]

The problem is the khichdi of systems on the SU-30. The desi Tarang RWR interfered with the SAP-18 EW pod . To enable the two to work together, India needed the source codes for the SAP-18 pod which the Russians refused to share. So India got the Israeli ELTA EL-8222 pod which Israel uses on its F-15Is. DARE has it's domestic HBJ pod. How ready is it? When can it be installed on the SU-30? At least it will be integrated with the desi Tarang RWR successor, the digital Dhruti. To upgrade an aircraft you need a strong OEM. But Russia is falling further and further behind in it's basic electronic knowledge. It still does not have an operational AESA radar. Upgrading the Bars N011M radar for the Irbis NO35 will be an improvement but the Irbis is still a PESA radar. Any investment in radar upgrades should hold good for at least the next 15 years. Does the IAF want it's SU-30s flying around with PESA radars 15 years from now when probably all the India facing front line fighters of the PAF and PLAAF will have AESA radars? So the answer is really Uttam maybe. But Uttam in it's first iteration for the LCA will not fly for another 2 years at least. And even that timeline is probably elastic. And then a more powerful and larger version of Uttam with many more T/R modules will have to be developed, tested and integrated with the SU-30. That will take another 5-7 years minimum. However if India wants access to the latest western AAMs and PGMs to be integrated with the SU-30, then suppliers of those products will want an Indian radar on the SU-30. There is no easy option for upgrading the SU-30

This is the Hallmark of our Beloved Armed force's deals. they not only buy foreign but also make sure we should become dependent on them for generations to come. Compare this Russian deals with China where Chinese even change MIG-21 design, license manufacturing of SU-27 meanwhile we can't change even a bulb in Su-30mki without Russia.
Honestly, I don't believe Russian have that much of objections. The only problem is, If you make any change in aircraft then Russian will not guarantee Su-30mki performance quality and may refuse to help or demand extra money. That's it!! Nothing more than this Russia could do. But it's our IAF which doesn't believe in India and our capabilities and refuses to inhouse upgradation without keeping Russian in loop.

 

[Brood Father]

Here is my assessment of MKI and I happy to be rebutted by the expert as I am not the expert but I gathered information from multiple sources

MKI is not a capable platform for the initial strike or to take enemy initial punch (something we observed on 27th Feb) . Sure it jammed all the incoming missiles but more is expected out of it .
And since it has only PESA and it's avionics are of older generation, during initial attack it is up for easy picking by AMRAAM or by enemy air defence.

However in case of a long war ,when the enemy defence system is compromised and when the BVR will be depleted over the course of war , sooner or later it will come to old school WVR engagement where manuverability will paly a crucial role and then MKI's will be unbeatable and it will easily shoot down all the western/Chinese fighters without breaking a sweat . For instance in all the friendly exercises we have managed to beat the American and Brits easily
MKI is a very potent platform if used as per situation which favours it but in modern world short skirmishes it's best not to use it

 

[vishnugupt]

Here is my assessment of MKI and I happy to be rebutted by the expert as I am not the expert but I gathered information from multiple sources

MKI is not a capable platform for the initial strike or to take enemy initial punch (something we observed on 27th Feb) . Sure it jammed all the incoming missiles but more is expected out of it .
And since it has only PESA and it's avionics are of older generation, during initial attack it is up for easy picking by AMRAAM or by enemy air defence.

However in case of a long war ,when the enemy defence system is compromised and when the BVR will be depleted over the course of war , sooner or later it will come to old school WVR engagement where manuverability will paly a crucial role and then MKI's will be unbeatable and it will easily shoot down all the western/Chinese fighters without breaking a sweat . For instance in all the friendly exercises we have managed to beat the American and Brits easily
MKI is a very potent platform if used as per situation which favours it but in modern world short skirmishes it's best not to use it

Meanwhile SU-30MKI.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Here is my assessment of MKI and I happy to be rebutted by the expert as I am not the expert but I gathered information from multiple sources

MKI is not a capable platform for the initial strike or to take enemy initial punch (something we observed on 27th Feb) . Sure it jammed all the incoming missiles but more is expected out of it .
And since it has only PESA and it's avionics are of older generation, during initial attack it is up for easy picking by AMRAAM or by enemy air defence.

However in case of a long war ,when the enemy defence system is compromised and when the BVR will be depleted over the course of war , sooner or later it will come to old school WVR engagement where manuverability will paly a crucial role and then MKI's will be unbeatable and it will easily shoot down all the western/Chinese fighters without breaking a sweat . For instance in all the friendly exercises we have managed to beat the American and Brits easily
MKI is a very potent platform if used as per situation which favours it but in modern world short skirmishes it's best not to use it

This is the Hallmark of our Beloved Armed force's deals. they not only buy foreign but also make sure we should become dependent on them for generations to come. Compare this Russian deals with China where Chinese even change MIG-21 design, license manufacturing of SU-27 meanwhile we can't change even a bulb in Su-30mki without Russia.
Honestly, I don't believe Russian have that much of objections. The only problem is, If you make any change in aircraft then Russian will not guarantee Su-30mki performance quality and may refuse to help or demand extra money. That's it!! Nothing more than this Russia could do. But it's our IAF which doesn't believe in India and our capabilities and refuses to inhouse upgradation without keeping Russian in loop.

The intention of saying the su 30 is not yet fully capable it to immediately upgrade it with an AESA radar, proper ew systems and potent bvr missiles. If it’s done in this order, it’s bound to stay as the mainstay engagement fighter for the iAf.

 

[Tang]

Because Pakistani F16s are not used much

Last crash was in 2020

 

[no smoking]

But it's our IAF which doesn't believe in India and our capabilities and refuses to inhouse upgradation without keeping Russian in loop.

There is no force in any country is responsible to believe their own domestic industries. It is the government who is responsible for this and it is the government investing big money in the industrial basis to support. There is no way military budget can cover that part.

 

[vishnugupt]

The intention of saying the su 30 is not yet fully capable it to immediately upgrade it with an AESA radar, proper ew systems and potent bvr missiles. If it’s done in this order, it’s bound to stay as the mainstay engagement fighter for the iAf.

Friend, Who told you Su-30mki is not fully capable??
People are drawing only one conclusion from Balakot incident that Su-30mki is obsolete. Nobody actually knows Why IAF didn't press Su-30mki against PAF aggression ? Why Su-30mki didn't fire at Paki's jets?
But Su-30mki proved its metal by evading a barrage of AIMRAAM which itself says lot about its capabilities but people are becoming hysteric for its upgradation. SU-30mki system are not that outdated as people are crying.
For Upgradation, all Systems being developed for Tejas Mk2 can integrate into MKI except, engine which IAF don't want to change.

 

[vishnugupt]

There is no force in any country is responsible to believe their own domestic industries. It is the government who is responsible for this and it is the government investing big money in the industrial basis to support. There is no way military budget can cover that part.

Let me explain myself. IAF and so called defence expert criticize Russian system day and night but same systems/weapons are being imported in large ammount, even for next 10 years.
I seriously doubt that Russia will upgrade SU-30MKI because Russia will not able to offer better Radar, electronic warfare suite, weapons compare to system we are developing for Mk2 and AMCA. So IAF should drop idea of Super-Sukhoi and should become vocal for local.

 

[Inbredstank2a]

The reason they don't want more MKI is because of the engine reliability issues. This is the sole reason why the air force doesn't want more of these jets. They welcomed the Super SU upgrade but has mandated AESA radar which will require new engine or GaNi based AESA which DRDO is yet to develop. These jets are costly to run. Instead of focusing on building more of this it is better to improve and print tejas such that ratio of fighter with chinese is 2:1. In the long run it will be better for economy as the maintenance will be saved, industry will mature, price will go down. Now, technology is moving forward and the airforce knows it as well. That is why they went with Rafael, otherwise there was Mig 35 or Su 35, which were much cheaper. Having worked with western and russian systems will allow domestic industry to learn things previously unknown.

 

[Inbredstank2a]

Let me explain myself. IAF and so called defence expert criticize Russian system day and night but same systems/weapons are being imported in large ammount, even for next 10 years.
I seriously doubt that Russia will upgrade SU-30MKI because Russia will not able to offer better Radar, electronic warfare suite, weapons compare to system we are developing for Mk2 and AMCA. So IAF should drop idea of Super-Sukhoi and should become vocal for local.

No, Russians have said they will upgrade it easy but the cost is really high and also Airforce doesn't want the AL 41 engine offered by the Russians due to poor reliability. For MKI itself up to 900 engines have been developed until know. The main problem with Russian equipment is that all their defence firm's are state owned and they are lax as a result they don't want to redesign engine according to Indian conditions. Example will be the RD 33 engines. If we look from their point they would not want to let go of their money and will keep us invested with engines. I am glad chinese and pak fighters have russian engines. The problem will begin once China would have completely finished their WS 10 WS 10 B WS 15 engine projects.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Mica has both Radar and IR seekers uses both for target acquisition.

As mission comp is of Indian origin we can integrate any missile available with only interface code No source code of AAM required.

Seems like French got a pretty good deal here.

There are two types of MICA IR and RF versions. Both aren't in same missile.

Ideally to eliminate a target both IR and RF are launched together if distance is medium range. For CCM IR missiles are preferred choice.

Perhaps MICA NG may get dual mode. It will be pretty expensive to operate though.

Dual mode, that you can find in Israeli interceptor Stunner missile which is part of their integrated Air defense system .


What we have integrated is MICA IR version probably. Range 60km.

For that we need it to be integrated with Elbit's HMDS plus mission computer to launch the missile from aircraft. Infact Israel integrated it for us along with HAL.

 

[Abhay Rajput 02]

The problem is the khichdi of systems on the SU-30. The desi Tarang RWR interfered with the SAP-18 EW pod . To enable the two to work together, India needed the source codes for the SAP-18 pod which the Russians refused to share. So India got the Israeli ELTA EL-8222 pod which Israel uses on its F-15Is. DARE has it's domestic HBJ pod. How ready is it? When can it be installed on the SU-30? At least it will be integrated with the desi Tarang RWR successor, the digital Dhruti. To upgrade an aircraft you need a strong OEM. But Russia is falling further and further behind in it's basic electronic knowledge. It still does not have an operational AESA radar. Upgrading the Bars N011M radar for the Irbis NO35 will be an improvement but the Irbis is still a PESA radar. Any investment in radar upgrades should hold good for at least the next 15 years. Does the IAF want it's SU-30s flying around with PESA radars 15 years from now when probably all the India facing front line fighters of the PAF and PLAAF will have AESA radars? So the answer is really Uttam maybe. But Uttam in it's first iteration for the LCA will not fly for another 2 years at least. And even that timeline is probably elastic. And then a more powerful and larger version of Uttam with many more T/R modules will have to be developed, tested and integrated with the SU-30. That will take another 5-7 years minimum. However if India wants access to the latest western AAMs and PGMs to be integrated with the SU-30, then suppliers of those products will want an Indian radar on the SU-30. There is no easy option for upgrading the SU-30

I am baffled by your knowledge. Can you please tell me about sap14? Its sap518 first. I dont think we have sap14 centerline pod Second it was elta pod which wasn't comptaible with russian bars radar. In other words either you can use radar or ew pod but you can't use both. Tarang rwr was solved way back . We have this exact discussion way back when iaf posted the pic of su30 mki with sap518 pod.

 

[Flying Dagger]

No, Russians have said they will upgrade it easy but the cost is really high and also Airforce doesn't want the AL 41 engine offered by the Russians due to poor reliability. For MKI itself up to 900 engines have been developed until know. The main problem with Russian equipment is that all their defence firm's are state owned and they are lax as a result they don't want to redesign engine according to Indian conditions. Example will be the RD 33 engines. If we look from their point they would not want to let go of their money and will keep us invested with engines. I am glad chinese and pak fighters have russian engines. The problem will begin once China would have completely finished their WS 10 WS 10 B WS 15 engine projects.

1. Yes Russia and India are probably in discussion to.upgrade atleast 4 squadron down from 200 earlier planned.

2. Al41 is actually a much i.proved engine problem is we have already paid for license production of AL 31. And the engine is basically an upgrade of the same. But still they want high license fees for the new engine .

3. India wants to do away with the spare parts import of Sukhoi and manufacture all on its own that is also being discussed.

Radar : We want an AESA radar in upgrade package which isn't available for now.

Other than that cost is indeed an issue that's why only 4 squadron will.be upgraded first . It might be possible India undertake upgrade of rest on its own if Uttam works out well and we could get an engine in 120+ class of our own.