Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Inbredstank2a]

Yes we do not have APG v1... but we do have a 3rd generation AESA in our Rafale. Range is around 210 km for a 5m2 target, 280 km in combination with Spectra.

BARS is not that of a bad radar. Rumours has it , the upgraded one on SU 30 has a range upward of 300 km for a 3m2 target in a narrow FOV.

Our primary threat to our west does not have anything in comparison.

Chinese are a bigger threat as they have both quality and quantity. If we continue to gauge west as threat then we won't make any progress in defense.
BARS is not bad it is not current either when the chinese already have AESA in the J16, J10, J20 etc. Modern Jamming is catching up fast and since no one knows what the chinese have up their sleeves it makes strategic decision making a tough play to win.

 

[omaebakabaka]

The AESA craze is because of its high jamming resistance. Multi mode operation. The frequency of change in AESA is really high that can confuse radar warning receiver of its origin. It should be noted that the Chinese are crazy after AESA and all new jets are getting replace by the J16D

Not denying AESA advantages but then how is Russia managing their own fighters, they did very well in Syria in battle conditions plus daily interceptions of NATO on their borders.....surely you would see a war time effort to replace them in their stuff if jamming was so easy?

Jamming requires lot of power to disable an aircrats radar vs a a2a missile.....China may be able to do that but in a terrain like Himalayas, that could be difficult doing it from ground equipment.

We make "khicdhi" of equipment because Russian export variant doesn't suit IA IN IAF requirement and are deemed poor. Many things don't go in Hand with want they want and are available else where. Greatest example is the T90 "Bhisma". The original one recieved had many problem regarding fire control system, engine cooling etc
They are buying Rafael so that they can reduce their reliance on a single source. To get new design inspiration and to get access to western missile which are deemed superior to russian missiles in general.

No contention on Rafale purchase as India need to hedge when Russia is selling same stuff to China, aren't we getting more t-90's? Yes, there were problems with initial ones but their industry modernized after 2008 post Georgia unless their export is 2nd grade. This may be a 90s and early 2000s impression still propagating?

In any case we need our own domestic make in long run....as even 1st world countries are unable to afford their own latest stuff.

As per engines, how much of incidents are post 2008 exports from Russia or more recent purchases, am just curious....

 

[Inbredstank2a]

AESA work on same principle around the world. a heavy dose of barrage jamming will degrade even the capability of most sophisticated one.


SU 30mki use both.

But AESA counter counter jamming is much higher so that barrage jamming will need to be much more sophisticated apart from which there will be multiple aircraft with AESA working differently and data sharing enabling will mean that one can use other to launch missiles.

 

[Inbredstank2a]

Not denying AESA advantages but then how is Russia managing their own fighters, they did very well in Syria in battle conditions plus daily interceptions of NATO on their borders.....surely you would see a war time effort to replace them in their stuff if jamming was so easy?

Jamming requires lot of power to disable an aircrats radar vs a a2a missile.....China may be able to do that but in a terrain like Himalayas, that could be difficult doing it from ground equipment.

No contention on Rafale purchase as India need to hedge when Russia is selling same stuff to China, aren't we getting more t-90's? Yes, there were problems with initial ones but their industry modernized after 2008 post Georgia unless their export is 2nd grade. This may be a 90s and early 2000s impression still propagating?

In any case we need our own domestic make in long run....as even 1st world countries are unable to afford their own latest stuff.

As per engines, how much of incidents are post 2008 exports from Russia or more recent purchases, am just curious....

Who will bother engaging a Russian Fighter jet except americans which would mean war. The interceptions mean nothing they too send their tu 160 over alaska and f22 are sent to intercept them. We are getting more T90 because the army has already operated T 72 T90 is made in manufactured in India and it can readily support logistics as we can see in Ladakh. T90 which is made in India has Indian armour and ERA package, and Thales fire control system, drdo cooling solution, some other countries thermal sight etc. Russia offered T90 MS because they have the T14 now. They offered T14 but not with ToT. T90 MS has upgrades that the T90 lacked while many western had those.

Why India doesn't get Russian Jets when they are cheap and are capable ? Ans Engine problems. Mig 35 Su 35 are really cheap compared to Rafael or anything in the west. Engine reliability problem. IAF has seen Mirage 2000 vs the Mig 29k. Also the overall cost of maintaining a Russian Jet offset the initial cost of buying it.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Most people in this & many other forum think that AESA cannot be jammed , which is not true. even frequency hopping AESA can be dealt with. Given your power requirements are met.

Agreed, in theory anything can be jammed. Just not enough evidence to say that AESA wins hands down, good and powerful PESA radars are almost equally as efficient in combination with ECM and ECCM pods, AWACS in a network centric battle. However future is AESA/Photonic radars.

 

[LDev]

Russians from Eastern Ukraine to Syria are using combination of jamming techniques specially barrage jamming from there powerful khibiny jamming pods you see on those SU 34 fullback & SAP's on SU 30, 35. India use same SAP -518 & SAP-14 on our Sukhoi's.

It doesn't matter if you have Better ECCM capability. If you can flood whole set of operating frequency bandwidth with pure noise & the level of noise is significantly above your radar return...then it will make it difficult even for multiple J 16D, J 10 using frequency hoping AESA to distinguish your radar returns from the background noise.
Most people in this & many other forum think that AESA cannot be jammed , which is not true. even frequency hopping AESA can be dealt with. Given your power requirements are met.

Given below is what the IAF really thinks about the SAP-518 and SAP-14 pods in the current environment:

"The Indian Air Force (IAF) must address the need to upgrade its fleet of Russian-made Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters, according to a former senior commander of the service.

Speaking at the 4–5 February Electronic Warfare Asia symposium in Singapore, retired Air Marshal Daljit Singh said, “The Sukhoi is quite obviously a superb and powerful platform. In terms of the carriage capability and its range it has great utility but the reality is that the programme originally came online in 1997 and there have been numerous technological advancements since then that dictate an update for the aircraft.”

The IAF has acquired more than 250 of the type, most of which have been licence-assembled at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) plant in Nasik, India.

Singh said two key elements in the Su-30MKI – the radar and the electronic warfare (EW) suite – are falling behind the current state-of-the-art elements and need to be upgraded. The radar is the NIIP N011M Bars radar, which is only a passive electronically scanned array (PESA) system and would need to be replaced with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar to give Su-30MKI crews a higher level of situational awareness.
The EW suite is a greater challenge in that the aircraft’s large radar cross-section makes a robust self-protection capacity mandatory. The aircraft’s current EW suite is a variant of the Russian-produced KNIRTI SAP-518 wingtip-pod-mounted system, which can be augmented by the SAP-14 centreline stand-off jamming module.

“The Russian EW is very effective; there is no question about that,” said Singh. “But what the Russians did not tell us is what a negative impact the pods have on the Sukhoi’s aerodynamic performance.”"

 

[Flying Dagger]

Who will bother engaging a Russian Fighter jet except americans which would mean war. The interceptions mean nothing they too send their tu 160 over alaska and f22 are sent to intercept them. We are getting more T90 because the army has already operated T 72 T90 is made in manufactured in India and it can readily support logistics as we can see in Ladakh. T90 which is made in India has Indian armour and ERA package, and Thales fire control system, drdo cooling solution, some other countries thermal sight etc. Russia offered T90 MS because they have the T14 now. They offered T14 but not with ToT. T90 MS has upgrades that the T90 lacked while many western had those.

Why India doesn't get Russian Jets when they are cheap and are capable ? Ans Engine problems. Mig 35 Su 35 are really cheap compared to Rafael or anything in the west. Engine reliability problem. IAF has seen Mirage 2000 vs the Mig 29k. Also the overall cost of maintaining a Russian Jet offset the initial cost of buying it.

T-14 isn't selected due to our own FMBT.

T-90s is apparently manufactured here fully except some parts and royalty to be paid majority of the amount invested comes back. Though due to high license fee and imported items we use the cost is high.

Aren't we getting another batch of 33 Russian jets ? Around 400 of these will serve for India. That's more than half of our airforce.

Do you really think any of these 4.5th gen fighter offered to us will be much better than Su 57 ?

We will be able to get more from it than any other jet we purchase in terms of TOT.

Also Mig 35/Su35 doesn't offer anything new that we don't have.

We have made some deals due to various reason for e.g. going for Chinook discarding the Mi 26 completely. While China is building even bigger heli with Russia.

Throwing off the Mi 26 like capability was a bad idea instead we should have built on it.

But do we really wish to be completely dependent on Russia ? That was the main reason we were looking for aircraft from another country. The attitude of Russia during Adm Gorshkov refurbishing didn't help it either.

So, Rafale was the obvious choice as we have been using 100+ Jags and Mirage and have a history of doing so. It also opens up a door for India to check on western equipments. It was the price which was the issue. That gave Gripen and USA, hope but eventually we went with French as we are still unsure/skeptical abt relationship with America and we should be.

The other issues are quite solvable.

 

[Inbredstank2a]

T-14 isn't selected due to our own FMBT.

T-90s is apparently manufactured here fully except some parts and royalty to be paid majority of the amount invested comes back. Though due to high license fee and imported items we use the cost is high.

Aren't we getting another batch of 33 Russian jets ? Around 400 of these will serve for India. That's more than half of our airforce.

Do you really think any of these 4.5th gen fighter offered to us will be much better than Su 57 ?

We will be able to get more from it than any other jet we purchase in terms of TOT.

Also Mig 35/Su35 doesn't offer anything new that we don't have.

We have made some deals due to various reason for e.g. going for Chinook discarding the Mi 26 completely. While China is building even bigger heli with Russia.

Throwing off the Mi 26 like capability was a bad idea instead we should have built on it.

But do we really wish to be completely dependent on Russia ? That was the main reason we were looking for aircraft from another country. The attitude of Russia during Adm Gorshkov refurbishing didn't help it either.

So, Rafale was the obvious choice as we have been using 100+ Jags and Mirage and have a history of doing so. It also opens up a door for India to check on western equipments. It was the price which was the issue. That gave Gripen and USA, hope but eventually we went with French as we are still unsure/skeptical abt relationship with America and we should be.

The other issues are quite solvable.

You can have the biggest helicopter in the world still it won't matter if it can't perform in battle field. There is a reason why Indian heli are using French derived engines and not russian one's. Also, Chinook is a proven design while the better russian helicopter will be the ka 31 which they are going to build due to the contra blade shaft technology it comes with
Su 35 >>> Mig 35. Mikoyan has made Mig 35 because it is cheaper to maintain and operate in light of current situation for the Russain AF. And Mig 35 and Mig 29k have the same frame as a result of Mig 35 has better load carrying capacity than the Mig 29 and more hardpoint can be added . Engine issue has been resolved acc to mikoyan.
Mi 17 were a pain in the neck to operate and Mi 26 are crash buckets
Rafael was the choice because France would tailor it according to Indian needs . Americans want all their equipment and nothing else. Eurofighther is not worth it in the long run. JAS Sab i have no idea why they even pit it. F16 Viper block 70 another joke when there is tejas . F 15 EX Rafael better lower cross section better avionics. F 18 block 3 + growler i am pretty sure navy is pretty keen on this fighter EW aircraft and we may see a limited order. We have problem with missile MBDA meteor from Rafael solves it. By studying Meteor Astra mk2 will be developed.

 

[Inbredstank2a]

It doesn't matter if you have Better ECCM capability. If you can flood whole set of operating frequency bandwidth with pure noise & the level of noise is significantly above your radar return...then it will make it difficult even for multiple J 16D, J 10 using frequency hoping AESA to distinguish your radar returns from the background noise.
Most people in this & many other forum think that AESA cannot be jammed , which is not true. even frequency hopping AESA can be dealt with. Given your power requirements are met.

What every radar can be jammed sir but the question is for how long and how many. AESA is not immune. Data linking will make sure that planes can interoperate in a jammed environment.
Also, to jam you will have to give away your positions that will then be shot at. So it won't be continuous jamming but across multiple points. All the squadrons will have dedicated wild weasel aircraft to deal with this jamming problem. WIth 20-30 planes having 5 dedicated J16 with EW capability they will be really diffcult to jam and will have to be engaged with much superior numbers since those EW planes will interfere with lock ons.

The sensors which will be jamming multiple AESA will have to swtich multiple frequencies quickly and require a lot of power. Such instruments are not difficult to detect if you have proper AWACs and that jamming will become much more harder if the squad has EW aircraft which will be their when attacking,

 

[Flying Dagger]

You can have the biggest helicopter in the world still it won't matter if it can't perform in battle field. There is a reason why Indian heli are using French derived engines and not russian one's. Also, Chinook is a proven design while the better russian helicopter will be the ka 31 which they are going to build due to the contra blade shaft technology it comes with
Su 35 >>> Mig 35. Mikoyan has made Mig 35 because it is cheaper to maintain and operate in light of current situation for the Russain AF. And Mig 35 and Mig 29k have the same frame as a result of Mig 35 has better load carrying capacity than the Mig 29 and more hardpoint can be added . Engine issue has been resolved acc to mikoyan.
Mi 17 were a pain in the neck to operate and Mi 26 are crash buckets
Rafael was the choice because France would tailor it according to Indian needs . Americans want all their equipment and nothing else. Eurofighther is not worth it in the long run. JAS Sab i have no idea why they even pit it. F16 Viper block 70 another joke when there is tejas . F 15 EX Rafael better lower cross section better avionics. F 18 block 3 + growler i am pretty sure navy is pretty keen on this fighter EW aircraft and we may see a limited order. We have problem with missile MBDA meteor from Rafael solves it. By studying Meteor Astra mk2 will be developed.

Lol By studying Meteor you will develop Astra mk2 ?

You think after spending time effort on developing Astra we will reverse engineer Meteor?

Astra 3 SFDR joint project with Russia is meteor equivalent from India.

Astra mk2 is going to use dual pulse solid rocket motor propulsion. Just like AIM 120 D of America or Derby ER.


First It's Rafale .. not Rafael ( Israeli Company which makes Derby Python etc )

Regarding tailoring jet acc to need well no one will give you as much as we got from Russia.

Now back to topic.

Mi 26 is a heavy transport heli with 20 T capacity and one of the safest one. Chinook have their role to play but Mi 26 is a capability that we had and we let it go.

Mi 17 were pain in your neck to operate is that why we bought more of them ? You think IAF plan to replace them with Chinook ? Lol

All are in diff category regarding your blah blah blah.

KA 31 is AEW heli for naval operation nothing to do with Chinook we will be building 200 KA 226 T in India not KA 31 .

Leave it...

 

[Inbredstank2a]

Lol By studying Meteor you will develop Astra mk2 ?

You think after spending time effort on developing Astra we will reverse engineer Meteor?

Astra 3 SFDR joint project with Russia is meteor equivalent from India.

Astra mk2 is going to use dual pulse solid rocket motor propulsion. Just like AIM 120 D of America or Derby ER.


First It's Rafale .. not Rafael ( Israeli Company which makes Derby Python etc )

Regarding tailoring jet acc to need well no one will give you as much as we got from Russia.

Now back to topic.

Mi 26 is a heavy transport heli with 20 T capacity and one of the safest one. Chinook have their role to play but Mi 26 is a capability that we had and we let it go.

Mi 17 were pain in your neck to operate is that why we bought more of them ? You think IAF plan to replace them with Chinook ? Lol

All are in diff category regarding your blah blah blah.

KA 31 is AEW heli for naval operation nothing to do with Chinook we will be building 200 KA 226 T in India not KA 31 .

Leave it...

I confused KA 31 Ka 226 because the point i wanted to discuss was the coaxial rotor which eliminates the tail rotor thus enabling the engine to focus completely on the lift itself.

The focus here is on tech that is being transferred with the Ka 226 which is the coaxial rotor and its modular design that can be used in future design for indigenous product.
Similarly for Astra take design input from meteor, mk1 took from r77 not quoting the model make of the missile but stating why we got rafale and meteor. Propulsion aside missile needs guidance the seeker to is important. Meteor is not only about its propulsion but also the seeker which too is much more advance than what russian have to offer.

Off topic difference between design input and reverse engineering
Taking design Input :
Tupolev design bureau for its Tu 144 took design input from Concord team which is why they are almost same on the outside. But in reality they are completely different from the inside.
Reverse Engineering :
J 11A/B is a reverse engineer Su 27. HQ9 is reverse engineered S300.

Since, we are talking about jets and radar, not jamming pods ,neither am i writing 1 line argument therefore writing Rafale as Rafael is not deliberate but a mistake.

I don't understand why you have a sweet spot for Mi 26 when both Chinook and Mi 26 are heavy life helicopter where the Mi 26 is deemed at the top but the Chinook is more capable from a operation's point of view. Mi 26 has poor serviceability, then Russian spares vs American spares in contrast to delivery time. What's the point of having helicopters with 20ton weight carrying capacity when they aren't available when required. Preparedness of the fleet is important. You can read about Chinook its a versatile heli.

 

[JBH22]

I confused KA 31 Ka 226 because the point i wanted to discuss was the coaxial rotor which eliminates the tail rotor thus enabling the engine to focus completely on the lift itself.

The focus here is on tech that is being transferred with the Ka 226 which is the coaxial rotor and its modular design that can be used in future design for indigenous product.
Similarly for Astra take design input from meteor, mk1 took from r77 not quoting the model make of the missile but stating why we got rafale and meteor. Propulsion aside missile needs guidance the seeker to is important. Meteor is not only about its propulsion but also the seeker which too is much more advance than what russian have to offer.

Off topic difference between design input and reverse engineering
Taking design Input :
Tupolev design bureau for its Tu 144 took design input from Concord team which is why they are almost same on the outside. But in reality they are completely different from the inside.
Reverse Engineering :
J 11A/B is a reverse engineer Su 27. HQ9 is reverse engineered S300.

Since, we are talking about jets and radar, not jamming pods ,neither am i writing 1 line argument therefore writing Rafale as Rafael is not deliberate but a mistake.

I don't understand why you have a sweet spot for Mi 26 when both Chinook and Mi 26 are heavy life helicopter where the Mi 26 is deemed at the top but the Chinook is more capable from a operation's point of view. Mi 26 has poor serviceability, then Russian spares vs American spares in contrast to delivery time. What's the point of having helicopters with 20ton weight carrying capacity when they aren't available when required. Preparedness of the fleet is important. You can read about Chinook its a versatile heli.

Mi 26 is a cow carrying 20tonnes of troops,ammo etc that can be useful if used as a strategic assets to have mutiplier effect.
Chinook is a tactical heptor to insert troops carry nominal payload near battle field. They complement each other if you see the larger picture

 

[Flying Dagger]

I confused KA 31 Ka 226 because the point i wanted to discuss was the coaxial rotor which eliminates the tail rotor thus enabling the engine to focus completely on the lift itself.

The focus here is on tech that is being transferred with the Ka 226 which is the coaxial rotor and its modular design that can be used in future design for indigenous product.
Similarly for Astra take design input from meteor, mk1 took from r77 not quoting the model make of the missile but stating why we got rafale and meteor. Propulsion aside missile needs guidance the seeker to is important. Meteor is not only about its propulsion but also the seeker which too is much more advance than what russian have to offer.

Off topic difference between design input and reverse engineering
Taking design Input :
Tupolev design bureau for its Tu 144 took design input from Concord team which is why they are almost same on the outside. But in reality they are completely different from the inside.
Reverse Engineering :
J 11A/B is a reverse engineer Su 27. HQ9 is reverse engineered S300.

Since, we are talking about jets and radar, not jamming pods ,neither am i writing 1 line argument therefore writing Rafale as Rafael is not deliberate but a mistake.

I don't understand why you have a sweet spot for Mi 26 when both Chinook and Mi 26 are heavy life helicopter where the Mi 26 is deemed at the top but the Chinook is more capable from a operation's point of view. Mi 26 has poor serviceability, then Russian spares vs American spares in contrast to delivery time. What's the point of having helicopters with 20ton weight carrying capacity when they aren't available when required. Preparedness of the fleet is important. You can read about Chinook its a versatile heli.

Ka 226 as a capability itself much better than our LUH that is why we are getting them.

Coaxial rotor isn't just tech but based on designing the heli for that purpose from the beginning.

Chinook is somewhat based on that. Benefit is while it saves the loss of power in tail rotor it lets you Decrease the length of heli providing better stability .

Mk1 used the Russian seeker on r77 initially but the design was a bulky Matra 530 D. Later we cut down on weight.

Anyway We aren't buying Meteor to copy the design though we do learn from using them and those things are incorporated. But Astra mk2 is already in progress it will be similar like Derby and Derby ER . With improved electronics seeker and extended range.

As far as seeker is concerned, we have developed our own and will be using it on Astra.
You'll reverse engineer Meteor seeker? You'll learn from seeing it ? Be specific

You don't understand why I have a sweet spot for Mi 26?

There is no sweet spot and there is nothing you can or you want to understand.

Mi26 is a capability we developed over decades, do you understand how many few hours pilots get to operate such helis and master it.

these kind of helis are pretty efficient in relief construction work etc. Our BRO would have benefitted immensely in situation where we had to immediately clear up roads or build them provide relief or equipments etc. The kind of heavy equipments they can carry is amazing.

Chinook are medium lift heli and they have their role but Chinook can't replace Mi 26 capability. China is building even bigger with Russia.

Infact there was an old report where USA concluded mi 26 cost as much to operate Chinook but provide more payload to be carried.

Offtopic : J11 is a copy first it was licensed then China copied the flankers with diff designation and built them.

The engines and other components etc were reverse engineered.

Done now.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

View attachment 57870

Many members used to quote this guy as a source to sell targeted bias propaganda against su-30mki.
If someone goes back few page's you can find people using his word's.

 

[Inbredstank2a]

Many members used to quote this guy as a source to sell targeted bias propaganda against su-30mki.
If someone goes back few page's you can find people using his word's.

European Salesman is what that guy is

 

[Inbredstank2a]

Mi 26 is a cow carrying 20tonnes of troops,ammo etc that can be useful if used as a strategic assets to have mutiplier effect.
Chinook is a tactical heptor to insert troops carry nominal payload near battle field. They complement each other if you see the larger picture

I'd rather use a donkey who is always available than a bull who seldom shows up

 

[vishnugupt]

SAP 518 & SAP 14 jamming pods used by SU 30 mki
specifications.
View attachment 58227

None of these jammers were ever used by Su-30mki They were rejected by our scientific air force long ago due to inference with something which only known to IAF. Only ELTA jammer is being used or undergoing trials. This is happening only after a wake-up call from PAF during Balakot.
I doubt if Su-30mki even uses a Friend-or-foe identification system As our Imported airforce only take care of things till a foreign deal get signed. The next moment forgets everything till the next deal comes.

 

[vishnugupt]

Both are in use.

SAP-518 wingtip jammer pods. SU 30MKI
View attachment 58250

SAP-14 Support Jammer SU 30MKI
View attachment 58251

They are as usual under trials. These pics are new especially, post Balakot.
And this also beg a question, What happened to that ''interference'' now because of that IAF couldn't install these pods earlier??

 

[vishnugupt]

Trial's ? How do you know they are under trial & not in use ? They are now standard issue main jammer pods of sukhoi 30 series including russian one. More powerful than the AN/ALQ-99 jamming pod on growler. Why do you think US going for Next generation jamming pods.

These pictures are from 2019 and its a dummy trials ( First one). India rejected SAP-518 jammer back in 2015 over ELTA jammer pod. Infact, SU_30mki was flying all long without any jammer pod for years.
I did not comment on US next generation jammer

 

[vishnugupt]

Here's your SAP 518 jamming pod on SU 30mki back in 2015.
View attachment 58274

ground vibration test ( GVT ) were being carried out back then on modified Sukhoi's with different configurations for brahmos missile. One was using SAp 518 jamming pods. Now why would you test if you are not using them ? Just cause you got to see one now doesn't mean they weren't there back then.

You test so you can use it better but during the testing IAF find it not suitable for MKI and change it with Elta jammer. Though, IAF has imported it so they might have used it for other reason ( Support, Petrol ) but never standardized it for MKI in combat role, Atleast until Feb-2019