Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Tridev123]

NEZ is defined as the range at which a target is unable to "outrun" a missile in a tail chase situation.

Even head on, if an aircraft detects a missile launch the immediate action is tio turn and run. They try to simply outrun the missile. Every missile only has finite "powered" flight till its motor runs out of juice so if you can open up distance to beyond this then you have "escaped" as the missile can no longer catch you.

NEZ is that area within which this turn and run is not possible as the missile will catch up to you in powered flight before it runs out of juice.

Appreciate the precise technical definition bro. Have a few questions to be clarified but will post later.

 

[uoftotaku]

This is not accurate. MKI may not have gone airframe upgrade but it's weapons and electronics have improved a lot.

It has an all digital Indian radar warning system .
It has sap18 jamming pod and Israeli jamming pods. While an Indian jamming pod is under development.

Su30 has added Astra mk1 to its arsenal along with all new type of Indian pgm , lgbs.

It has mated with bramhos which is a rare feat for any aircraft in the world.

It's radar is still most powerful radar than any paki fighter. And it's engine have enough power to propel it to Mach 1.8.

Let me post from BRF the upgrads planned for su30 MKI.


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Bhai..90% of the items in your list even by admission of the original poster are either on development or in planning.

Few if any have been implemented fleet wide and many of them are actually part of the original MKI programme but have been delayed due to development failure along the way. So it's not that the MKI is evolving, in many crucial ways it is actually still not at 100% systems ready FOC stage!

Even Brahmos capability is still in validation. It requires extensive air frame modifications which is planned for 42 birds but has not yet been operationalised as the flight testing is not yet completed.

The problem is that HAL has not implemented the regular procedure of building in incremental blocks with systems upgrades progressively introduced. Even the Ruskies are producing SU-30 in SM3 form now which has systems ported over from SU-35.

HAL is still stuck making the same MKI as 1998 so the fact remains that they continue to churn out a technologically obsolete aircraft.

It is irrelevant that Porks have little in their inventory to go against us. Our long term enemy is on the Eastern front. There we are out gunned already. If HAL expect follow on orders for MKI they better buck up on Super 30 or else IAF has little choice but to bulk up on Rafale and focus on AMCA

 

[patriots]

They have been ordered, but I don't think they have been integrated.

Bdw I have asked about bvrs to different Twitter users...who are credible...said that iaf now ready with new bvr
Including baba(if u believe)

 

[IndianHawk]

Bhai..90% of the items in your list even by admission of the original poster are either on development or in planning.

Few if any have been implemented fleet wide and many of them are actually part of the original MKI programme but have been delayed due to development failure along the way. So it's not that the MKI is evolving, in many crucial ways it is actually still not at 100% systems ready FOC stage!

Even Brahmos capability is still in validation. It requires extensive air frame modifications which is planned for 42 birds but has not yet been operationalised as the flight testing is not yet completed.

The problem is that HAL has not implemented the regular procedure of building in incremental blocks with systems upgrades progressively introduced. Even the Ruskies are producing SU-30 in SM3 form now which has systems ported over from SU-35.

HAL is still stuck making the same MKI as 1998 so the fact remains that they continue to churn out a technologically obsolete aircraft.

It is irrelevant that Porks have little in their inventory to go against us. Our long term enemy is on the Eastern front. There we are out gunned already. If HAL expect follow on orders for MKI they better buck up on Super 30 or else IAF has little choice but to bulk up on Rafale and focus on AMCA

These developments are going simultaneously. Good thing is that a lot of them are indegenios and so will move faster than Russia.

Even rafale has evolved through time. The most powerful aspects of rafale are spectra suit based on aesa radar and meteor missile. We know rafale got meteor just recently. And spectra with aesa is also fairly recent.

So su30 MKI is actually only few years behind of Rafale and will catch up with upgrade.

Problem has been dependence on Russia and ofcourse HAL is slow. But even the basic su30mki is still better than 100% of paki fleet and 90% of Chinese fleet ( barring 24 su35 and some j20 which are not even operational).

So even in china 60-80 % of Chinese fleet will consist of j10 , jh17 and su30 clones for long time to come. Su30 MKI can beat them all.

And it's still cheap and we build and maintain it domestically. So su30 will remain relevant for a long time to come.

Against Chinese su35 and j20 let us buy 36 more rafale and focus on AMCA . But for everything else su30 MKI is capable all it needs is longer bvr and Better ew suite. That will come .

But we can't make numbers with rafale . Numbers have to come from desi birds mwf , AMCA . Till then a few more MKI won't hurt.



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[AUSTERLITZ]

These developments are going simultaneously. Good thing is that a lot of them are indegenios and so will move faster than Russia.

Even rafale has evolved through time. The most powerful aspects of rafale are spectra suit based on aesa radar and meteor missile. We know rafale got meteor just recently. And spectra with aesa is also fairly recent.

So su30 MKI is actually only few years behind of Rafale and will catch up with upgrade.

Problem has been dependence on Russia and ofcourse HAL is slow. But even the basic su30mki is still better than 100% of paki fleet and 90% of Chinese fleet ( barring 24 su35 and some j20 which are not even operational).

So even in china 60-80 % of Chinese fleet will consist of j10 , jh17 and su30 clones for long time to come. Su30 MKI can beat them all.

And it's still cheap and we build and maintain it domestically. So su30 will remain relevant for a long time to come.

Against Chinese su35 and j20 let us buy 36 more rafale and focus on AMCA . But for everything else su30 MKI is capable all it needs is longer bvr and Better ew suite. That will come .

But we can't make numbers with rafale . Numbers have to come from desi birds mwf , AMCA . Till then a few more MKI won't hurt.



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Unfortunately j11newer variants with aesa radar and other improvements are better than the mki unless it is upgraded.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Unfortunately j11newer variants with aesa radar and other improvements are better than the mki unless it is upgraded.

J 11 has an inferior AESA to western ones. The Super Sukhoi program is the panacea to all these problems.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...India_Seeks_More_Mig_29__Su_30MKI_From_Russia

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-toda...s-fresh-order-india-russia-1462112-2019-02-22

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...de_Su_30SM_Jet_with_Engine_from_Su_35_Fighter

Here look at some Russian AESA prototypes by changing the T/R modules on the N011M BARS radars.

https://docplayer.net/54458796-Adva...ese-active-electronically-steered-arrays.html

 

[Armand2REP]

HAL pitches for 4 more squadrons of Su-30MKI

Instead of pitching foreign aircraft why don't they triple production of LCA?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Instead of pitching foreign aircraft why don't they triple production of LCA?

LCA MK1 is equal to a an F 16A/B. LCA MK1A is equal to F 16 BLK 52. LCA MK2 / MWF is equal to Gripen E/F ; F 16V BLK 70.

 

[IndianHawk]

Instead of pitching foreign aircraft why don't they triple production of LCA?

Iaf still hasn't placed order for 83 mk1a.
Also nothing is stopping iaf from ordering more mk1 and mk1a if their squadron strength is falling.

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[vampyrbladez]

Iaf still hasn't placed order for 83 mk1a.
Also nothing is stopping iaf from ordering more mk1 and mk1a if their squadron strength is falling.

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Apparently HAL has very little indigenisation in LCA Tejas MK1A variant.

....in response to a request for a proposal for 83 Tejas Mark1A fighter jets issued by the IAF in December last year, HAL quoted a price of Rs 463 crore per jet in April. This raised eyebrows in the government, sources said, as the price compared unfavourably even with more modern foreign fighters. “The HAL supplies the more modern Russian Sukhoi fighter, which it assembles at Nashik, at Rs 415 crore. The Russians supply it at Rs 330 crore. The Swedish Gripen was offered to us for Rs 455 crore, and F-16 for Rs 380 crore, and both were to be made in India. The HAL itself gave us Tejas Mark1 at Rs 100 crore less. This price for an improved version seems high,” sources said.

https://indianexpress.com/article/i...o-check-hals-high-bill-for-tejas-jet-5234903/

 

[IndianHawk]

Apparently HAL has very little indigenisation in LCA Tejas MK1A variant.



https://indianexpress.com/article/i...o-check-hals-high-bill-for-tejas-jet-5234903/

Yes . That is understandable. As mk1a is supposed to be with Israeli aesa and ew suite.
And f404 is a direct import.

In comparison su30 has older hybrid radar and engine are manufactured in India. Even su30 MKI mission computer is Indian. We mate Astra with su30 without Russian assistant.

But mk1a cost can't be compared to other planes as they have pre established assembly lines and costs are amortized over long production runs . F16 -40 years ,MKI 20 years run!

But good news is that indigenous aesa and unified ew suite are getting ready .they can reduce cost of subsequent batches if ordered.





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[vampyrbladez]

Yes . That is understandable. As mk1a is supposed to be with Israeli aesa and ew suite.
And f404 is a direct import.

In comparison su30 has older hybrid radar and engine are manufactured in India. Even su30 MKI mission computer is Indian. We mate Astra with su30 without Russian assistant.

But mk1a cost can't be compared to other planes as they have pre established assembly lines and costs are amortized over long production runs . F16 -40 years ,MKI 20 years run!

But good news is that indigenous aesa and unified ew suite are getting ready .they can reduce cost of subsequent batches if ordered.





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The low numbers of LCA don't justify the cost. 83 won't reduce the cost. Atleast 150 - 200 will.

MWF is what IAF ultimately wants. I suspect there is a scam in HAL afoot.

 

[IndianHawk]

The low numbers of LCA don't justify the cost. 83 won't reduce the cost. Atleast 150 - 200 will.

MWF is what IAF ultimately wants. I suspect there is a scam in HAL afoot.

Mwf is being developed by DRDO / ada. HAL is only manufacturing agency.

Mk1a is an HAL development. Costs are stil being negotiated for mk1a but aesa radar and Israeli ew suite is expensive. ( which is better than anything Chinese have or paki will get!)

Also we need to know if performance bases logistics agreement is signed for lca that may increase cost upfront unlike Russian fighters which come in cheap but cost a lot to maintain.

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[vampyrbladez]

Mwf is being developed by DRDO / ada. HAL is only manufacturing agency.

Mk1a is an HAL development. Costs are stil being negotiated for mk1a but aesa radar and Israeli ew suite is expensive. ( which is better than anything Chinese have or paki will get!)

Also we need to know if performance bases logistics agreement is signed for lca that may increase cost upfront unlike Russian fighters which come in cheap but cost a lot to maintain.

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1. HAL IS the problem. Unions, corruption, lackluster work culture. This causes more problems than it aims to solve. There is a reason Rafale production will be given to a Franco - Indian consortium like BrahMos not HAL.

2. Same AESA and EW suit is in Jaguar upgrade. These HAL folk think MoD and IAF are ch***yas. If you have 83 in production, you can bulk buy to reduce costs. There is definitely something fishy here.

3. We OWN HAL. Why not put IAF directly in charge of QA and corporate side while HAL does floor management, production and R&D?

These chaps could have been bifurticated into 2 PSUs and made to compete against each other like Mikoyan & Gurevich and Sukhoi or Lockheed and Boeing. Single supplier monopoly by a PSU is asking for trouble.

 

[IndianHawk]

1. HAL IS the problem. Unions, corruption, lackluster work culture. This causes more problems than it aims to solve. There is a reason Rafale production will be given to a Franco - Indian consortium like BrahMos not HAL.

2. Same AESA and EW suit is in Jaguar upgrade. These HAL folk think MoD and IAF are ch***yas. If you have 83 in production, you can bulk buy to reduce costs. There is definitely something fishy here.

3. We OWN HAL. Why not put IAF directly in charge of QA and corporate side while HAL does floor management, production and R&D?

These chaps could have been bifurticated into 2 PSUs and made to compete against each other like Mikoyan & Gurevich and Sukhoi or Lockheed and Boeing. Single supplier monopoly by a PSU is asking for trouble.

Yes HAL is problem and needs competition.
I was pointing out that mwf development is not in hands of HAL.

Jaguar aesa is smaller with much less tr module than lca mk1a . So not comparable.

I'm not sure about jaguar ew suite.

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[Bleh]

1. HAL IS the problem. Unions, corruption, lackluster work culture. This causes more problems than it aims to solve. There is a reason Rafale production will be given to a Franco - Indian consortium like BrahMos not HAL.

2. Same AESA and EW suit is in Jaguar upgrade. These HAL folk think MoD and IAF are ch***yas. If you have 83 in production, you can bulk buy to reduce costs. There is definitely something fishy here.

3. We OWN HAL. Why not put IAF directly in charge of QA and corporate side while HAL does floor management, production and R&D?

These chaps could have been bifurticated into 2 PSUs and made to compete against each other like Mikoyan & Gurevich and Sukhoi or Lockheed and Boeing. Single supplier monopoly by a PSU is asking for trouble.

Yes HAL is problem and needs competition.
I was pointing out that mwf development is not in hands of HAL.

Jaguar aesa is smaller with much less tr module than lca mk1a . So not comparable.

I'm not sure about jaguar ew suite.

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Wasn't there was a time when HAL used to churn out 2-4 dozens of Mig-21s every year?

 

[uoftotaku]

Wasn't there was a time when HAL used to churn out 2-4 dozens of Mig-21s every year?

Yes...and they crashed as quickly as they produced them too...

 

[Bleh]

Yes...and they crashed as quickly as they produced them too...

Touche... Seriously though, other than Migs being Migs, that's very likely due to Khangress govt. not procuring enough spares parts for maintenance.
They're 40 years old now & don't hear them crashing nearly as frequently as they used to do in previous decades. About the same rate as other aircrafts now.

Anyway once the new assembly lines are active, HAL & it's private partners should be able to speed up.

 

[WolfPack86]

IAF set to shelve Jaguar engine upgrade, could buy more Su-30 MKIs instead
Jaguar engines have seen a 15-30% reduction in thrust, and the cost of the upgrade is too high. One Sukhoi can perform the same role as two Jaguars.

New Delhi: The Indian Air Force is set to shelve its plan for an engine upgrade of the Jaguar deep penetration strike aircraft due to the high cost involved. Instead, it could go in for additional Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs to replace the aircraft that will be grounded, ThePrint has learnt.

Top sources in the defence establishment said the Rolls-Royce Adour 811 engines of the 1980s vintage twin-engine aircraft have seen 15-30 per cent reduction in thrust. This means the Jaguar cannot carry its full load.

The IAF had planned to go in for an engine upgrade and had selected US firm Honeywell’s F-125IN engines. But sources termed the Jaguar upgrade programme as being an awkward state of affairs.

“The price quoted by Honeywell and the HAL for ‘re-engining’ is just too high. For the price of two such upgrades, we can get one basic Rafale,” a source said.

Currently, the IAF operates a total of six squadrons of the Jaguar. However, in actual strength, there are only five squadrons, as the sixth is not a complete squadron.

Avionics upgrade won’t help
The Jaguar is already undergoing an avionics upgrade — from Darin-I to Darin-III standard — but this programme is seven years behind schedule.

“The Darin-III upgrade is all about avionics and a better cockpit system. However, the problem is with the engines. Since the thrust factor is coming down, the aircraft is already flying with lower load during peacetime operations as a precautionary measure,” a source said.

Sources added that there would come a time when aircraft would be grounded as and when their engine thrust comes below a specific point, as it would put the pilots’ lives at risk.

IAF pilots have a morbid joke among themselves that the Jaguar’s current engines are so underpowered that in case of one engine failing, the second takes the aircraft to the crash site, not back to safety.

More Sukhois
A source said the plan to procure more Sukhois was being considered because it could fulfil a similar role.

“One plan is to order more Su-30 MKIs to replace those fighters that would be grounded. As far as role is concerned, one Sukhoi can play the same role as two Jaguars,” the source said.

“We can’t really afford to ground the entire fleet if the engines become a problem. If we do that, our fighter squadron strength will come down to that of Pakistan. Not to forget that out of those 25 squadrons, we still have some of ageing MiGs.”
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-set...ade-could-buy-more-su-30-mkis-instead/278687/

 

[IndianHawk]

Wasn't there was a time when HAL used to churn out 2-4 dozens of Mig-21s every year?

Migs were much simpler to produce compared to today's multirole composite aircrafts.

World over fighter jet numbers and production have gone down significantly.

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