Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Wisemarko]

An Indian facility that makes Su-30MKI jets may shut down, toppling 400 local suppliers

A senior executive of India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited said the company, which owns the facility, will complete the production of the remaining eight Su-30MKI fighters on order by March. Then the production facility at Nasik, central India, could shut down if no new orders are placed, the executive warned.

An executive with the industry lobby group Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce & Industry, said 400 local suppliers that build about 6,000 components worth $12.5 million for each Su-30MKI fighter may also shut down if no new orders are placed with HAL.

HAL produces about 12 Su-30MKI multirole fighters each year. The company is expected to complete the delivery of 272 Su-30MKI fighters by March 2020.

Another HAL executive said a formal request has been sent to the Indian Air Force and the Ministry for Defense that they place an additional order for 72 locally made Su-30MKI fighters for about $5 billion, but the government has not yet made a decision.

A senior Air Force official said the service could only order 18 fighters as a response to the number of Su-30MKI jets lost in accidents over the last two decades.

The Air Force is not eager to place large orders of these fighters because of the cost of locally made Su-30MKI jets.

“Each HAL-built Su-30MKI fighter costs around $70.3 million, where as a Russia-supplied fighter costs around $42.15 million,” the senior Air Force official said.

A senior MoD official said that Russia last month tried to pressure the Indian government to order an additional 72 Su-30MKI fighters with HAL, but the Indian Air Force is reluctant to place new orders in such a large number.

“The HAL built Su-30MKI fighter is not fully indigenized, only 51 percent is homemade, where the remaining 49 percent of supplies still comes from Russia,” said Bhim Sigh, a retired wing commander with the Indian Air Force.

Singh noted that most of the raw materials are sourced from Russia, including titanium blocks, forgings, aluminium and steel plates, as well as low-tech items such as nuts, bolts and screws.

HAL continues to depend on Russia as the original equipment manufacturer for components, raw material, servicing and overhaul of the fighters.


Source: Defense News

No wonder IAF does not want HAL to make more of these. Russians are having a field day using HAL to make additional profits.

 

[Prashant12]

India aims to export Sukhoi upgrade

The `Super Sukhoi’ upgrade for India’s fleet of the frontline fighters -- a total of 272 combat aircraft have been ordered by the air force -- is in advanced levels of discussions, with modernization plans for avionics, engines and weaponry on offer.

NEW DELHI: India, which is looking to upgrade its mainstay Su 30MKI fighter fleet to modern standards, hopes to get a toehold into the export market as well by offering the package to friendly foreign nations that operate the Russian origin aircraft.

The `Super Sukhoi’ upgrade for India’s fleet of the frontline fighters -- a total of 272 combat aircraft have been ordered by the air force -- is in advanced levels of discussions, with modernization plans for avionics, engines and weaponry on offer.

Officials told ET that the upgrade has the potential to unlock exports given the large fleet of Su 30s in service around the world that would also require upgrades in the future. “There is a market outside. We are already the only ones doing overhauls for the aircraft and once we conduct the upgrade, we can offer a better solution to the outside world as well,” HAL chairman R Madhavan told ET.

Over 600 aircraft of the Su 27/30 type have been manufactured and large operators include Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia and Algeria. China also operates the type but has already reverse engineered it as the Shenyang J 11.

Among the nations that India could approach with the upgrade solution is Malaysia that is already interested in collaboration for maintenance and upkeep of its fleet of 18 Su 30 fighters. India plans to help Malaysia set up a Maintenance Repair and Overhaul (MRO) unit there and train its technicians as part of bilateral cooperation pacts. Other potential partners for the program could be Vietnam which operates 46 fighters of the type.

On the Indian front, the `Super Sukhoi’ upgrade has been talked about for a while but there seems to be a sense of urgency with the IAF, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and the Russian government have been working on the upgrade program. Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa confirmed last month that technical proposals are being shared given that the aircraft have been in service for almost 20 years while Russia raised the issue in 2017 at top level meetings between leaders of the two nations.

The HAL chief confirmed that proposals have been discussed as recently as last month. “The configuration has not yet been finalized but the upgrade basically will include beyond visual range capability, new electronic warfare suites, an engine upgrade as well as a new radar,” Madhavan said.

As reported by ET, the state-owned company has separately also pitched for an order to manufacture four additional squadrons of the Su 30 MKI jets to quickly meet gaps in fighter squadron strength. The air force for now seems to be only keen on ordering replacements for aircraft that have been lost in accidents.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...xport-sukhoi-upgrade/articleshow/70746927.cms

 

[Tridev123]

The Su30mki is the IAF's main strike aircraft though the Rafale may usurp that role in the future. But for the Rafale to assume that role a couple of years is required at a minimum as our pilots have to get accustomed and new tactics to maximise the Rafale 's potential have to be developed. So the Su30mki will continue to play a pivotal role in the near future. The Super Sukhoi is in the pipeline and will add new life to the Su30mki. I would like to make a suggestion w. r to the Su30mki. While the Super Sukhoi will add features like an AESA radar, improved engine etc. the large RCS of the Su30mki will not change. Redesigning the airframe to include stealth features is out of the question. Now the Rafale while having a stealthier aircraft shape then the Su30mki is still not a true stealth shaped plane like the F35 or F22. It relies heavily on the Spectra system to reduce its RCS. So why not Russia and India together design an Spectra like capability for the Su30mki. Everybody picks on the large RCS of the Su30mki to degrade it. Spectra technology reduces RCS without having to redesign the plane. Can it be done and do we have to the capability to do it?. Is it feasible?.

 

[uoftotaku]

The Su30mki is the IAF's main strike aircraft though the Rafale may usurp that role in the future. But for the Rafale to assume that role a couple of years is required at a minimum as our pilots have to get accustomed and new tactics to maximise the Rafale 's potential have to be developed. So the Su30mki will continue to play a pivotal role in the near future. The Super Sukhoi is in the pipeline and will add new life to the Su30mki. I would like to make a suggestion w. r to the Su30mki. While the Super Sukhoi will add features like an AESA radar, improved engine etc. the large RCS of the Su30mki will not change. Redesigning the airframe to include stealth features is out of the question. Now the Rafale while having a stealthier aircraft shape then the Su30mki is still not a true stealth shaped plane like the F35 or F22. It relies heavily on the Spectra system to reduce its RCS. So why not Russia and India together design an Spectra like capability for the Su30mki. Everybody picks on the large RCS of the Su30mki to degrade it. Spectra technology reduces RCS without having to redesign the plane. Can it be done and do we have to the capability to do it?. Is it feasible?.

You are mistaken in your understanding of Spectra. It has nothing to do with RCS reduction.

The Rafale has certain specific contouring in its structural design to reduce its basic RCS without external weapons.

Spectra is an EW suite which fuses multiple sensors, jammers, warning systems and countermeasures to work together to defeat enemy radar. It does not reduce RCS but rather jams & obfuscates enemy radar and missiles

As far as putting up an equivalent for the SU-30, yes very much possible. In fact the MKI already has many of the individual components of a Spectra type system built in already with others in some stage of development. The only thing missing is the ability to sensor fuse all of them together and work seamlessly as a single broad spectrum system rather than as individual sub systems operating in parallel.

In that regard, Spectra is actually quite unique in its huge breadth of abilities.

 

[Tridev123]

You are mistaken in your understanding of Spectra. It has nothing to do with RCS reduction.

The Rafale has certain specific contouring in its structural design to reduce its basic RCS without external weapons.

Spectra is an EW suite which fuses multiple sensors, jammers, warning systems and countermeasures to work together to defeat enemy radar. It does not reduce RCS but rather jams & obfuscates enemy radar and missiles

As far as putting up an equivalent for the SU-30, yes very much possible. In fact the MKI already has many of the individual components of a Spectra type system built in already with others in some stage of development. The only thing missing is the ability to sensor fuse all of them together and work seamlessly as a single broad spectrum system rather than as individual sub systems operating in parallel.

In that regard, Spectra is actually quite unique in its huge breadth of abilities.

Thanks for clarifying. What you have mentioned is largely correct but I was also referring to the ability of Spectra to perform active cancellation of incoming radar signals. The Wiki open source definition of Spectra in its last paragraph mentions that it reduces the apparent radar signature of the Rafale by a complex process of signal deflection and cancellation. I think the information would be quite accurate. By what degree the apparent radar signature are reduced is of course an unknown. Maybe you can quote an opinion to the contrary which says that the Spectra does not reduce the Rafale 's apparent radar signature.

 

[uoftotaku]

Thanks for clarifying. What you have mentioned is largely correct but I was also referring to the ability of Spectra to perform active cancellation of incoming radar signals. The Wiki open source definition of Spectra in its last paragraph mentions that it reduces the apparent radar signature of the Rafale by a complex process of signal deflection and cancellation. I think the information would be quite accurate. By what degree the apparent radar signature are reduced is of course an unknown. Maybe you can quote an opinion to the contrary which says that the Spectra does not reduce the Rafale 's apparent radar signature.

Active cancellation is an advanced form of jamming. The difference in Spectra is the subtlety it uses to do it rather than the brute force which other systems use which is interpreted as active cancellation. BTW 90% of Spectra capabilities are classified and not known at all in public domain.

 

[Tridev123]

Active cancellation is an advanced form of jamming. The difference in Spectra is the subtlety it uses to do it rather than the brute force which other systems use which is interpreted as active cancellation. BTW 90% of Spectra capabilities are classified and not known at all in public domain.

Please go through my sources - Wiki and. nationalinterest. org especially the last para in Wiki definition of Spectra. There are multiple sources which state that Spectra does reduce the Rafale apparent radar signature. How is not very clear and by what extent is a question mark. Technology is available which makes it possible. You would appreciate the significance of reduction of apparent radar signature without shape modification. Even a higher rcs plane can reduce its rcs by ensuring that what the emitter radar sees is manipulated. So even if the actual rcs of the plane is large it can camouflage its presence. A expert can probably go into the physics of the matter.

 

[uoftotaku]

Please go through my sources - Wiki and. nationalinterest. org especially the last para in Wiki definition of Spectra. There are multiple sources which state that Spectra does reduce the Rafale apparent radar signature. How is not very clear and by what extent is a question mark. Technology is available which makes it possible. You would appreciate the significance of reduction of apparent radar signature without shape modification. Even a higher rcs plane can reduce its rcs by ensuring that what the emitter radar sees is manipulated. So even if the actual rcs of the plane is large it can camouflage its presence. A expert can probably go into the physics of the matter.

If you consider wiki and national interest as sources then I have nothing further to add to this discussion. In any case, go through Rafale thread, there have been in depth discussion on Spectra in past.

 

[Tridev123]

If you consider wiki and national interest as sources then I have nothing further to add to this discussion. In any case, go through Rafale thread, there have been in depth discussion on Spectra in past.

I do not want to drag this exchange unnecessarily. You don't agree that Spectra also reduces the apparent radar signature of the Rafale. Then please provide sources to back your claim instead of disparaging my sources. Provide references. I rest my case. The more important issue of whether India and Russia can provide a similar capability to the Su30mki has been sidestepped.

 

[Suryavanshi]

So 250+ Sukhoi 30 mostly China Centric
110 Rafale mostly Pakistan centric.
120+ Tejas mostly China and Pakistan centric, Tejas has been demonstrated to fly in Ladakh so it could most likely fly in AP as well.
40+ Mirages 2000 mostly Paksitan centric
130+ Jaguar for CAS roles Pakistan centric.
70+ Mig 29 mostly gor coastal defence as they may carry 3 Brahmos NG and 2 A2A one day.

AMCA???????????????
FGFA???????????

 

[Aaj ka hero]

So 250+ Sukhoi 30 mostly China Centric
110 Rafale mostly Pakistan centric.
120+ Tejas mostly China and Pakistan centric, Tejas has been demonstrated to fly in Ladakh so it could most likely fly in AP as well.
40+ Mirages 2000 mostly Paksitan centric
130+ Jaguar for CAS roles Pakistan centric.
70+ Mig 29 mostly gor coastal defence as they may carry 3 Brahmos NG and 2 A2A one day.

AMCA???????????????
FGFA???????????

Jaguars are now going to be history though.

 

[ashdoc]

https://m-economictimes-com.cdn.amp...3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

Super sukhoi upgrade in advanced level of discussions . Export possibilities to be explored.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

So 250+ Sukhoi 30 mostly China Centric
110 Rafale mostly Pakistan centric.
120+ Tejas mostly China and Pakistan centric, Tejas has been demonstrated to fly in Ladakh so it could most likely fly in AP as well.
40+ Mirages 2000 mostly Paksitan centric
130+ Jaguar for CAS roles Pakistan centric.
70+ Mig 29 mostly gor coastal defence as they may carry 3 Brahmos NG and 2 A2A one day.

AMCA???????????????
FGFA???????????

280 su30mki upg (14 squadrons)(18 new)
86 mig 29upg (4 squadrons)(21 new)
48 mirage2k upg (3 squadrons)
40 Lca mk1 (2 squadrons)
83 lca mk1a (4 squadrons)
36 rafales (2 squadron)

29 squadrons are certain.Plus whatever jaguars can be retained as numbers slowly decline.
Jaguar (from 90 odd in 5 sq down to 3 sq by 2025 and retired by 2030 without engines)
Rafales,mirage and sukhoi swing fighters for both fronts.Tejas mk1 and 1a pak centric for forward bases.Mig29 pak centric .Same for remaining jaguars.

2 more rafale squadrons almost certain.So 31 certain squadrons.
The 7 mirage and mig29 squadrons will be replaced by amca.
Tejas mk2 mwf will replace jaguars and be used for filling squadron strength from 31- 42.Atleast 8-11 squadrons.Need single engine fighters to manage operating costs.

FGFA wont happen unless a panic buy is needed against chinese 5th gen.(rafale with irst can handle it).In that case it would likely be european or f35 rather than fgfa which has fake stealth as of now.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Jaguars are now going to be history though.

Had GTRE made HTFE 35 instead of HTFE 25, Jaguar would have got AN indigenous engine. However, they decided to make a 25 kiloNEWTON engine which is not needed in any kind of plane. Even they cannot be used in twin engine configuration in in medium weight fighter. THEY should make HTFE 35 with35/55 KN thrust.

 

[Enquirer]

Had GTRE made HTFE 35 instead of HTFE 25, Jaguar would have got AN indigenous engine. However, they decided to make a 25 kiloNEWTON engine which is not needed in any kind of plane. Even they cannot be used in twin engine configuration in in medium weight fighter. THEY should make HTFE 35 with35/55 KN thrust.

I had written this same lament extensively earlier......that HAL knew for decades that Jaguars will be needing new upgraded engines yet embarked on an engine spec that's not required by anyone.
The 25KN engines were ostensibly for the trainer aircraft HAL intends to produce....trainers that IAF doesn't want!
But Jaguars that IAF does want was not even in consideration!

ONLY SAVING GRACE that I see is that current Adour engines on Jaguar are functioning at 30% below their rated thrust output. So, even if HTFE-25 were to be installed on Jaguars it might still be a marginal advantage (30%-40% extra compared to current levels)!

(Assuming HTFE-25 has 25KN dry thrust)

 

[ashdoc]

Let the Jaguars decline . I don't think they can handle the air defenses of Pakistan in this modern age anyway.

 

[Enquirer]

Let the Jaguars decline . I don't think they can handle the air defenses of Pakistan in this modern age anyway.

Makes no sense!!!
Every aircraft doesn't need to be a top line deep strike aircraft!
Jaguar with upgrades & possibly an EW pod should be great for CAS - a function that won't go away!
AESA radar, modern navigation system, auto-pilot, ASRAAM missiles etc does make it formidable!
Engine power of course need to be solved!!!

 

[HariPrasad-1]

ONLY SAVING GRACE that I see is that current Adour engines on Jaguar are functioning at 30% below their rated thrust output. So, even if HTFE-25 were to be installed on Jaguars it might still be a marginal advantage (30%-40% extra compared to current levels)!

not sure about this but certainly HTFE can be upgraded to Higher thrust or alternatively we may design and bring a new engine in next 4 years based on HTFE 25. If we can do that to 35/55 KN, we can use it in twine configuration in MWF. Indian navy will always prefer twine engine configuration over single engine configuration. Or alternatively a company like Bharat Forge or L & T should be tasked to make engine with technologies developed for HTFE 25.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Let the Jaguars decline . I don't think they can handle the air defenses of Pakistan in this modern age anyway.

Basic role of Jaguar is to take off from rough road near Border , fly low without being detected and bomb Paki installations. The most important of all is that we do not have the replacement. We have to use jaguar for Quite some time now.

 

[Enquirer]

not sure about this but certainly HTFE can be upgraded to Higher thrust or alternatively we may design and bring a new engine in next 4 years based on HTFE 25. If we can do that to 35/55 KN, we can use it in twine configuration in MWF. Indian navy will always prefer twine engine configuration over single engine configuration. Or alternatively a company like Bharat Forge or L & T should be tasked to make engine with technologies developed for HTFE 25.

Top sources in the defence establishment said the Rolls-Royce Adour 811 engines of the 1980s vintage twin-engine aircraft have seen 15-30 per cent reduction in thrust. This means the Jaguar cannot carry its full load.

https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-set...ade-could-buy-more-su-30-mkis-instead/278687/

So, HTFE-25 itself will be a significant upgrade over the current (if it indeed gives 25KN dry thrust.....and I am not sure if an afterburner has been designed for this engine!)