Sukhoi PAK FA

[p2prada]

thanks. how many 4th, 4.5th and 5th gen aircraft would be in service with the indian air force by 2020, and how much will india spend on defence by that time?

We will just have 3 or 4 prototypes of 5th gen by 2020. Most of our forces will be 4th and 4.5th gen.

Mig-29 = 63
Jaguar = 125
Mirage-2000 = 49+2
MKI = 270

Rafale/LCA = at least two to three squadrons.

Possibly some remaining Mig-21s and Mig-27s that make up 13 squadrons today.

Just use an online compound interest calculator to calculate the budget. Use 12% every year with the principle at $40 Billion. Just make one of those years at 30% because there is a new pay structure coming up.

 

[HMS Astute]

great. that's a huge quantity of fighter jets, but how many of them are actually air worthy and effective? the entire jaguar fleet should no longer be in service, though. i really like to know how effective, powerful and strong indian air force is compared to others. just don't know where it deserves to be in the top 10 ranking. is it much more stronger than the air forces of saudi arabia, isreal, germany, china, france and uk? not trolling lol, genuinely want to know it's capability compared to others.

 

[asianobserve]

Actually this was well reported in the media. The cause was also ascertained and they said the aircraft will be back in testing after repairs.

They explained in some details about what happened before and after too, like the pilot jumping off and running for his life, though nothing happened to it.

He's right.

I tried looking for it in RT, seems like there's no article about the incident in that media company.

 

[p2prada]

great. that's a huge quantity of fighter jets, but how many of them are actually air worthy and effective? the entire jaguar fleet should no longer be in service, though.

The ones that I have listed have a lot of service life left in them, even the Jaguars. 37 of them were newly built and are just a few years old.

More teeth for jaguar: Nearly 120 of the Indian Air Force jets are being modernised | Mail Online

The Jaguars are supposed to get a new engine by 2023. They should be good to go until 2030-35.

The Mig-29s and Mirage-2000s are also undergoing upgrades today, so they will be good until 2030. The last upgraded Mig-29 will be delivered in 2016 and the last M-2000 in 2021. I suppose FGFA will start replacing the Mig-29 after 2025.

The Mig-21s have very little life. The phaseout process has started with the FL version already being phased out. We have three other versions called M/MF, Bis and Bison. By 2020 we should see the majority of them gone with Bisons being the last to go. The same with Mig-27s. They may go out earlier than thought because they are not getting the planned EW upgrade.

i really like to know how effective, powerful and strong indian air force is compared to others. just don't know where it deserves to be in the top 10 ranking. is it much more stronger than the air forces of saudi arabia, isreal, germany, china, france and uk? not trolling lol, genuinely want to know it's capability compared to others.

I don't know how to answer this because there is no specific answer. Europe, being far richer, have a more consolidated force and UK's and France's in particular are meant for expeditionary roles in support of the USAF/USN. It means UK/France are going to work with the US. So, the type of weapons, training etc is all meant for this. IAF is not such a force. Even with greater numbers and bases, we cannot work together with the US in such roles because we don't use the same communication devices. Even after we get the Rafale, I doubt we will even be able to work with the French because communications links will be different. Even the way we operate is different. IAF is meant to fight enemies across our borders, not the case with UK, France or Germany.

If you look at a 1v1 comparison, then IAF has greater number of aircraft, personnel and bases than either UK, France or Germany. None of the countries have anywhere near the numbers necessary to fight the IAF. But IAF is currently using equipment that is much older in comparison, which balances things out. Like I said earlier, in 5 years we would have caught up, beyond that IAF will give all European countries a one-sided drubbing.

Saudi Arabia is a pretty dog at a dog show. They don't buy aircraft based on operational necessities, they buy it for political needs.

Israelis are a worthy match to us. Better in some aspects too. They have a better industry supporting them. But in 5 or 10 years they shouldn't be anywhere near us, some of the credit will go to their industrial support to our air force which is happening as we speak in the department of EW. We have some real good programs with them and they are bearing fruit today.

The Chinese have just started getting ahead. Rafale will keep us on par but they already outspend us. I don't know where the Chinese plan to stop, but it may not be comfortable for us in the long run unless we match their level of spending. We have better aircraft deployed today, but they are catching up real fast. Lucky for us they have other air forces to worry about.

All air forces structure their strength for a particular need and budget. So, just comparing numbers and stuff is actually useless. The Israelis are best suited for their environment, and the Chinese for theirs. The same with the others, except Saudi Arabia. We would like to have been better off but it hasn't happened until today. Let's see how things are in the future. We are getting a dedicated naval air wing as well. In 15 years it should be more powerful than any individual European power.

 

[p2prada]

He's right.

I tried looking for it in RT, seems like there's no article about the incident in that media company.

I was being general. I don't particularly worry about one individual source.

 

[Apollyon]

Any recent news on IUSAV ? @p2p
If this program is going well we may see some of the ground attack aircraft of IAF being replaced by this, right?

 

[p2prada]

Any recent news on IUSAV ? @p2p
If this program is going well we may see some of the ground attack aircraft of IAF being replaced by this, right?

What's interesting is MoD has not yet put a cap on number of unmanned aircraft that we can have, unlike manned fighters which have a max of 42 squadrons. Today the IUSAV is quite modest, it is still quite small, the size of LCA and has similar range as the LCA. We may see a Mk2 or Mk3 version which could end up being as big as a Rafale or MKI with supersonic capabilities, this may happen in the 2030 region. That would bring in a new dimension of air warfare for us. We may see the induction of a fairly large number of these birds. They won't directly replace any of our current aircraft. The lack of restriction on numbers could work in the IAF's favor, budget willing.

We may see a number of them being directed by a group of two "twin-seater" FGFA as they work together to take out a target. Basically, the FGFA will replace the AEW&C in its role. The WSOs can draw out a plan to take out an integrated air defense and send in the UCAVs while directing other FGFAs for air dominance roles.

The Americans have a very large program in their new generation LRS-B black project. They say it is not just one aircraft but multiple aircraft working together in fulfilling the same mission. They call it a system rather than an aircraft. FGFA and the IUSAV may work like that in the future.

The AURA program is still in its design stage. It should have a similar timeline as the LCA Mk2. But it is a demonstrator. Interesting times ahead for the Indian UCAV industry. We could actually aim to become pioneers in this industry, in two decades, build stuff nobody has built before.

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

@p2prada; am just droping by to say that i like reading your posts. i got to learn many new things which i didnt knew before. keep up with your good work. :cheers:

 

[cobra commando]

ITAR-TASS: Russia - Commander: Russian army to start receiving newest T-50 jet fighter from 2016

 

[Pulkit]

What about Us when are we getting our FGFA?how long is it gonna take?

ITAR-TASS: Russia - Commander: Russian army to start receiving newest T-50 jet fighter from 2016

 

[arnabmit]

great. that's a huge quantity of fighter jets, but how many of them are actually air worthy and effective? the entire jaguar fleet should no longer be in service, though. i really like to know how effective, powerful and strong indian air force is compared to others. just don't know where it deserves to be in the top 10 ranking. is it much more stronger than the air forces of saudi arabia, isreal, germany, china, france and uk? not trolling lol, genuinely want to know it's capability compared to others.

As per as my understanding goes:

Future Replacements:
Light: MiG-21 Bison (125)>>Tejas Mk2 (160).
Medium: MiG-27 (100)>>Rafale (126+63)
Heavy: Su-30MKI (272)>>Super-30 (225)

> FGFA would make up for extra Squad numbers (200) to take it to 42 squads
> By the time AMCA is ready, it would replace Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 (51) and Mig-29UPG (66) as Medium Air Superiority/SEAD/DEAD (Multirole) fighter.
> Rafale will eventually replace the role of Jaguars (Ground attack/CAS) once they are phased out.

 

[arnabmit]

What about Us when are we getting our FGFA?how long is it gonna take?

We would also get 1st prototype in 2016 for FGFA development.

 

[p2prada]

> FGFA would make up for extra Squad numbers (200) to take it to 42 squads
> By the time AMCA is ready, it would replace Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 (51) and Mig-29UPG (66) as Medium Air Superiority/SEAD/DEAD (Multirole) fighter.
> Rafale will eventually replace the role of Jaguars (Ground attack/CAS) once they are phased out.

Some correction here.

AMCA will replace Jaguars.

FGFA will replace Mig-29 and Mirage-2000, followed by the oldest Flankers, which are undergoing MLUs today.

 

[Punya Pratap]

« Russia to Start Developing Replacement for MiG-31 in 2017Army Chief reviews troops preparation along border »
Russian Air Force to start receiving newest T-50 jet fighter from 2016
Published August 12, 2014 | By admin
SOURCE: ITAR-TASS



Russia's fifth-generation T-50 jet fighter will begin to be supplied to the Armed Forces from 2016, Air Force Commander, Lieutenant General Viktor Bondarev said on Saturday."It [T-50] has already participated twice in the Aviadarts show and performed aerobatics figures in pairs with other planes. I think it has a bright future," he told the Russian News Service radio, adding that plane was being created using stealth technology.

Several such planes have already begun testing at the Akhtubinsk range in the southern Astrakhan region.
"We should start getting these aircraft from 2016," Bondarev said.The Russian Defence Ministry has worked out a detailed plan up to 2020 for re-equipping the country's Air Force.

"In 2016 we will start receiving the first T-50 planes," the commander said, adding that everything was going according to plan and the flight personnel of the 929th Chkalov flight test centre retrained for the T-50 aircraft also knwon as the Prospective Airborne Complexes of Frontline Aviation (PAK FA).

 

[ersakthivel]

What about Us when are we getting our FGFA?how long is it gonna take?

@abhi_the_gr8_maratha

am no expert in these things but what i have read till date about pak fa is its not good compared to its US counter part and also they not offering any tot. then why shud india buy from russia and not US? is price the factor?
and also is there any other friendly/neutral country which makes 5th gen fighter aircrafts we should consider?

Every aircaft has its plus and minus.

PAKFA is entering service in Russian airforce by 2016,

But right now IAF is all quite on PAKFA or FGFA, with a singular focus on spending all the 20 billions on rafale for deep strikes into tibet.They are showing no urgency on FGFA development.

Because the design changes they have asked for is not easy to be done by HAL itself and Russians right now are focused on producing and inducting PAKFA as it is and finding export customers to make money in international market.

Surprisingly IAf is not opting for the already practiced model of SU-30 MKI where it bought 40 planes initially and exchanged them to SU-30 MKI standards later.there is no urgency on part of IAF in doing this.

Right now they are fascinated by below 30 ton class MMRCA tender, with "no plan B to save IAF , in case rafale fails to materialize" motto.

Well they have an ASEA radar bigger than rafale and an internal weapon bay along with complete 5th gen X band stealth airframe.But no sense of anticipation from IAF on this count!!!.

Operating cost too would be similar to Su-30 MKis as both share lot of weapons , training and logistics will also be cheaper considering both will share a more or less similar footprint.

Similarly our retired and retiring Mig-21 drivers are showing no interest in AMCA program as well. From 2001 to 2010 they have done the glorious job of three ASR revisions already, when ADA first floated a modest proposal for a twin engined tail less delta with many techs from tejas .

Meanwhile this is what PLAF is doing,

http://idrw.org/?p=41625

In the past decade they have developed and test flighted two 5th gen prototypes even though they have no engine techs,

Just think what could have happened to these program if their ASR was revised three times by PLAF and not allotted priority funding by 2001 itself.

that is the difference between PLAF and our Imported Airforce. They fund their products, back them and induct them into service creating a huge defence R&D cum production facility in their back yard, we are always busy spending our money abroad right from HF-24 marut days.

 

[ersakthivel]

Some correction here.

AMCA will replace Jaguars.

FGFA will replace Mig-29 and Mirage-2000, followed by the oldest Flankers, which are undergoing MLUs today.

Considering Tejas is replacing Mig-21s,23s and 27s
AMCA replacing Jaguars,(It may take atleast a fifteen years minimum for a full fledged AMCA induction , will jags fly till then?)
FGFA replacing Mig-29 and Mirage-2000,
what is rafale replacing?

 

[ersakthivel]

What's interesting is MoD has not yet put a cap on number of unmanned aircraft that we can have, unlike manned fighters which have a max of 42 squadrons. Today the IUSAV is quite modest, it is still quite small, the size of LCA and has similar range as the LCA. We may see a Mk2 or Mk3 version which could end up being as big as a Rafale or MKI with supersonic capabilities, this may happen in the 2030 region. That would bring in a new dimension of air warfare for us. We may see the induction of a fairly large number of these birds. They won't directly replace any of our current aircraft. The lack of restriction on numbers could work in the IAF's favor, budget willing.

We may see a number of them being directed by a group of two "twin-seater" FGFA as they work together to take out a target. Basically, the FGFA will replace the AEW&C in its role. The WSOs can draw out a plan to take out an integrated air defense and send in the UCAVs while directing other FGFAs for air dominance roles.

The Americans have a very large program in their new generation LRS-B black project. They say it is not just one aircraft but multiple aircraft working together in fulfilling the same mission. They call it a system rather than an aircraft. FGFA and the IUSAV may work like that in the future.

The AURA program is still in its design stage. It should have a similar timeline as the LCA Mk2. But it is a demonstrator. Interesting times ahead for the Indian UCAV industry. We could actually aim to become pioneers in this industry, in two decades, build stuff nobody has built before.

AURA owes its existence to the strides made in the tejas programs like composite tech, fly by wire tech and control laws for RSS deltas

 

[ersakthivel]

The ones that I have listed have a lot of service life left in them, even the Jaguars. 37 of them were newly built and are just a few years old.

More teeth for jaguar: Nearly 120 of the Indian Air Force jets are being modernised | Mail Online

The Jaguars are supposed to get a new engine by 2023. They should be good to go until 2030-35.

The Mig-29s and Mirage-2000s are also undergoing upgrades today, so they will be good until 2030. The last upgraded Mig-29 will be delivered in 2016 and the last M-2000 in 2021. I suppose FGFA will start replacing the Mig-29 after 2025.

The Mig-21s have very little life. The phaseout process has started with the FL version already being phased out. We have three other versions called M/MF, Bis and Bison. By 2020 we should see the majority of them gone with Bisons being the last to go. The same with Mig-27s. They may go out earlier than thought because they are not getting the planned EW upgrade.



I don't know how to answer this because there is no specific answer. Europe, being far richer, have a more consolidated force and UK's and France's in particular are meant for expeditionary roles in support of the USAF/USN. It means UK/France are going to work with the US. So, the type of weapons, training etc is all meant for this. IAF is not such a force. Even with greater numbers and bases, we cannot work together with the US in such roles because we don't use the same communication devices. Even after we get the Rafale, I doubt we will even be able to work with the French because communications links will be different. Even the way we operate is different. IAF is meant to fight enemies across our borders, not the case with UK, France or Germany.

If you look at a 1v1 comparison, then IAF has greater number of aircraft, personnel and bases than either UK, France or Germany. None of the countries have anywhere near the numbers necessary to fight the IAF. But IAF is currently using equipment that is much older in comparison, which balances things out. Like I said earlier, in 5 years we would have caught up, beyond that IAF will give all European countries a one-sided drubbing.

Saudi Arabia is a pretty dog at a dog show. They don't buy aircraft based on operational necessities, they buy it for political needs.

Israelis are a worthy match to us. Better in some aspects too. They have a better industry supporting them. But in 5 or 10 years they shouldn't be anywhere near us, some of the credit will go to their industrial support to our air force which is happening as we speak in the department of EW. We have some real good programs with them and they are bearing fruit today.

The Chinese have just started getting ahead. Rafale will keep us on par but they already outspend us. I don't know where the Chinese plan to stop, but it may not be comfortable for us in the long run unless we match their level of spending. We have better aircraft deployed today, but they are catching up real fast. Lucky for us they have other air forces to worry about.

All air forces structure their strength for a particular need and budget. So, just comparing numbers and stuff is actually useless. The Israelis are best suited for their environment, and the Chinese for theirs. The same with the others, except Saudi Arabia. We would like to have been better off but it hasn't happened until today. Let's see how things are in the future. We are getting a dedicated naval air wing as well. In 15 years it should be more powerful than any individual European power.

But the recent news is somewhat different,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahom...ls-gets-caught-design-development-delays.html
The Indian Air Force's (IAF) plan to add much-needed new teeth with advanced missiles, engines and avionics to its ageing fleet of Jaguar fighters has failed to take off as the programme has got stuck with certain design and development issues.

The IAF initiated the process of upgrading the Jaguars in 2009 to bring a fleet of 61 aircraft to DARIN (Display Attack Ranging Inertial Navigation III) standards.
This meant that the more than four-decade- old aircraft would be transformed into a modern fighting machine with a head-up display, all-glass cockpit, advanced avionics, auto-pilot and new weapon systems.

The first prototype of an upgraded Jaguar, made by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, started flying in November 2012, but the results were far from satisfactory.
The IAF had hoped the upgraded Jaguar would get initial operational clearance by December 2012.
However, the deadline was missed because the prototype could not meet expectations.
Sources said the design and development aspects of the upgraded aircraft did not match with what was intended.
As a result of the glitches, the schedule for completing the programme has gone haywire.
The IAF will not have an upgraded fleet of Jaguars even by 2019 now. It was earlier planned that the series upgrade would be completed by December 2017.
The delay has come as a setback for the IAF, which is struggling to halt a slide in its fighter squadron strength.
Apart from Jaguars, the IAF is upgrading its Mirage 2000 fighters as well. The Mig-27s have also undergone a cockpit upgrade.
The IAF's plan to replace the Jaguar's underpowered engine too, has been stalled for long.

this further confirms that like your info and expertise on Tejas , it is also an outdated piece of news,

 

[ersakthivel]

The T-50 RCS figure mentioned by you and the one compared with for the F-22 are different. The T-50's figure is the average of RCS figures from all sides. The F-22's figure is only from the front.

Rafale is required for the same reason why UK needs the F-35 when Typhoon is already present, they are meant for role specific missions. Rafale is an MRCA, FGFA is for air dominance.

The actual timelines are different too. The Rafale is to the MKI as the AMCA is to the FGFA. We need a 4th gen low end and high end along with a fifth gen+ low end and high end.

Rafale is a decade late. They should have been inducted along with the MKI actually, typically from 2008 onwards. IAF has been asking for a MRCA since 1999, an aircraft whose role is meant to complement the MKI. The decade long inactivity is bearing result only today. Well, that's India.

IAF has been asking for MMRCA from 1999?

As late as 2004 they have only asked for 126 mirage-2000s after their good performance in kargil. Only the NDA govt modified it to MMRCA tender fearing corruption charges in a single vendor deal and which was later modified into MMRCA only after 2004.

Did dassault and Typhoon submitted their bid in 1999 or 2004?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition

The IAF projected a requirement for about 126 aircraft in 2001, when the strength was at 39.5 squadrons (down from 45). There is an option for an additional 74 aircraft.[13] Initial requirements appeared to be for a 20-ton class fighter aircraft with the Mirage 2000 as the strongest contender.

However, the 20-ton MTOW limit requirement has been removed. Also, considering the delays in the bidding,it was very likely that the LCA would be ready for induction by then. The IAF then would require replacements for its frontline strike aircraft like the MiG-27 and Jaguar,which would be retiring by 2015. India's future 5th-generation aircraft, the Russo-Indian Sukhoi/HAL FGFA and the indigenous Medium Combat Aircraft will not be ready before 2018,[14] and 2025,[15] respectively, thus providing the need for a replacement. Thus, the MRCA tender is more likely to be a medium-weight aircraft (MTOW of ~24 tons). This has led to a renaming of the competition as the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender.[citation needed]

The Indian government is to buy the first 18 aircraft directly from the manufacturer. The remaining fighters will be built under licence with a transfer of technology (ToT) by HAL.[16]

The IAF was keen on buying the Mirage 2000-5, after it was impressed by the Mirage 2000's capabilities during the Kargil War. However, due to the upcoming manufacture of the Dassault Rafale and lack of orders, the Mirage production lines were to be closed down. French officials stated that they could be kept open if India had made a firm commitment. However, the Indian Government decided to go in for a multi-vendor tendering process. Requests for Information (RFI) were issued in 2004. The RFIs were initially sent to four vendors: Dassault (Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2), Lockheed Martin (F-16C/D), Mikoyan (MiG-29OVT), and Saab (JAS 39 Gripen).[17]

 

[ersakthivel]

IAF vs HAL : Round 1 | idrw.org

This is the difference between IAF and PLAF.

Ongoing Tussle between Indian Air force and India's Biggest Public sector aeronautical company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was well known fact but IAF now has taken serious steps to, not depend on HAL and other DRDO labs for Maintenance and overhauling of its fighter aircrafts .

IAF which boost of 14 base repair depots (BRDs) under the maintenance command that presently carry out various levels of repairs and overhaul, but still depended on HAL and other PSUs for AMC and overhauling of its fighter aircrafts , IAF over the years has not been happy with the quality of work carried out by Government PSUs and now has decided, in phase manner to carry out most of the Maintenance and repairs in house .

Tussle has been growing since the time when , IAF wanted HAL to licence-build Pilatus PC-7 Mk II Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA) for IAF , but HAL turned downed the offer and instead offered Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 aircraft currently under development with HAL . Furius IAF At first mooted the idea of assembling Pilatus PC-7 Mk II in its base repair depots (BRDs) , but after feedback from maintenance command it asked Pilatus company to search for an Indian partner to assemble aircraft locally but that too could not take place since no Indian Private company was interested in Kit assembly of the aircrafts which had minimum returns for them , since then a Cold war between HAL and IAF has been growing .

IAF in a phase manner wants to snap ties with Government PSU's on Maintenance and overhauling of its aircrafts , but it will not be easy for IAF to completely snap ties with Government PSU's due to many technical reasons. Indian air force (IAF) also recently has Issued RFI For Intermediate Jet Trainers , after intermediate jet trainer, designated HJT-36 in development for past 14 years under HAL failed to clear IOC for last few years .

PLAF is working with its home based manufacturers to perfect its sword arm, IAF is divoricng our home based manufacturers and basing its trusts on french and Russians!!!!

Now for the sake of Swiss pliatus they are divorcing HAl!!!

No wonder then SA to PM Swaminathan divorced Tejas effort from HAL and formed a new agency called ADA in 1984 for the purpose, knowing the legendary relationship between IAf and HAL which made sure every fighter making effort gone bust right from HF-24 Marut , to even basic trainer efforts,

The relationship was so poisonous that when british and french converted their world war two trainer effort into jaguar which is expected to last till 2030 according to some posters here,

IAF-HAL could not recover even a trainer from the HF-24 marut effort from 1970 itself,


IAF always gives a proposal HAL starts on it then exactly midway ASr specs are changed, design flounders and foreign equipment gets imported!!!!

Same with IJT Sitara, change engine from lazerac to piss poor Al-31 midway and doom the product with various weight related issues and air frame issues go for a IJT with much lower engine power tailoring ASR according to the availability in international market, ask HAL to make it under license.


The same fate is visiting the AMCA effort by ADA , ASR has been changed three times and two models were put to airframe design test by NAL and it seems both have been discarded in favour of the third new model based on third ASR issued by IAF.

IAF prefers to build fighters simply in their ASR itself!!!!