Sukhoi PAK FA

[ace009]

I dont have the article to RBE2 but just remember off my head in a discussion i had with some one.

If you do google on LPI modes , you will find that they use low power T/R modules as one of the key elements for LPI capability besides the other trick.

LPI is not invincible its just that most ESM around are not tuned to detect it but the more ultra modern one can , much like most RWR wasnt tuned to detect the Ka band but the most recent one have those capability.




You cant be too sure as say it does not work , it is possible Growler is very effective against S-300 SAM.

The problem is none of the double digit SAM like S-300 , SA-11 ,SA-23 etc have been employed in combat against any NATO/US or Israel to judge its effectiveness of system in real combat , go back to the 60 and 70's , Israel faced SA-3 , SA-6 ,SA-2 from the arabs , US faced SA-2 against Vietnam , Fast forward 80's Israel faced the same SA-6 , fast forward the early 90's Gulf War , Coalition faced the same SA-2,SA-3 and SA-6 .....fast forward to late 90's NATO faced the same SA-2,SA-3,SA-6 against the Serbs and then go again to operation enduring freedom its the same SA-3 against the Iraq.

So in all 4 decades the SAM threat did not change , countries either did well like Egypt did well with SA-3/SA-6 in War of Attrition or Yom Kippur war or did very badly like in Beqqa valley or Lebanon War , similarly in Kosovo with the same system the Serbs did quite well.

Any country that could function well under pressure of war and could adapt and modify to the situation in real time did well , the others who could not adapt perished as their opponent could adapt and dominate the SAM , Like Israel did.



Nothing is useless , it would still save a day for fighter pilots , SAMS are not perfect solution neither are Jammers , The one who are regularly change their tactics and learn from mistakes and keep adapting to their environments under pressures of war will do well , will end up with less casualty and will dominate.

Its difficult to say how well IAF would fare in real war against a first rate enemy like china and how the Chinese IADS would fare against a first rate Air Force like IAF.




Agreed Air Force can just soften things for you and in the end Ground Forces will have to fight their way and dominate. The only people who exxaggarate their Air Force Capability are the Air Force themself , its a constant turf battle and you even see that in IAF.

In Kosovo conflict the Air Campaign managers mentioned that they managed to destroy 200 serb tanks etc when post war analysis was done they found that in reality only 35 tanks were destroyed.

In every Country there is a tendency to exxaggarate the Air Force capability and to under rate Ground Force contribution , there is a certain amount of charm associated with Air Force and the LGB dropping video from 30 thousand feet looks cool for PR and News

The Hard , Dirty and the Final job is still done by the ground forces.

The reason why they didnt go for Ground Campaign in Kosovo is becuause NATO countries are very sensitive to body bags and it was like fighting in Serbs own back yard , they did not want body bags and they preffered the Aerial Route.

I saw all the discussion between Archer and P2Prada about LPI - here's what it is ...

Modern multimode radars may incorporate "low probability of intercept (LPI)" features that prevent the radar from tripping off alarm systems in a target. LPI features include:

• Generating a narrow beam that is hard to spot from off its boresight, with the sidelobes suppressed.
• Enhancing the sensitivity and noise rejection of the receiver system to reduce transmitter power requirements.
• Only transmitting radar pulses when necessary, and while tracking using only enough transmit power to maintain the track.
• Spreading the radar pulses over a wide band so there will only be a very small signal on any one subband.
• Varying transmission parameters such as pulse form, frequency, or PRF, jumping around in an unpredictable fashion, not staying in one place long enough to register.

[4.0] Modern Radar Technology (2)

So, LPI uses narrow beams as well as low power output ...

 

[bhramos]

Model Of PAK-FA In IAF Colours

Livefist: Model Of PAK-FA In IAF Colours

 

[Bhon]

Look at the engine body of PAKFA and F-22. It seems Russians didnt made any efforts to reduce heat signature from the engine.

Raptors are designed to reduce its infrared signal too.

Ya. The russians developed the PAK FA to be less stealthy than the F-22 but more maneuverable..

 

[bhramos]

SUKHOI T-50 in indian airforce &navy colours

 

[Twinblade]

LPI has the disadvantage that it has its impact on range and most modern RWR/ESM can detect LPI.

If you do google on LPI modes , you will find that they use low power T/R modules as one of the key elements for LPI capability besides the other trick.

One of the ways to achieve LPI is to keep the Average or RMS power of the signal down and not the peak power. The detection range achieved by the radar is governed by peak power of the output signal, whereas RMS and Average power are functions of time. If i were to put it in plain english, the "low power" mode in LPI is keeping the duration of the signal at minimum while maintaining the usual levels of power output thereby denying the RWR/ESSM enough time (and signal) to compute the general direction of radar signal and possibly make it mistake for a random spike in EM signature synonymous with EW modes and getting it filtered out of the equation.

 

[Anshu Attri]

Sukhoi T-50 / PAK FA - official patent analysis


Sukhoi T-50 / PAK FA - official patent analysis | aerospace news | robotpig.net

The new Sukhoi T-50 / PAK FA Russian fighter is by now quite well known but any official document is certainly welcome. That is the case of the Sukhoi patent that form the basis of this post. Even if it may not bring groundbreaking details, it presents some interesting aspects that may be quite interesting even if they are just raising speculation to fact. This patent document published just yesterday (although submitted by Sukhoi 2 years ago) by the Russian patent office. It presents the general arrangement of the new PAK-FA aircraft, it describes its aerodynamic configuration and function and also some aspects of its design concerning low radar observability. Read below for more details and images.---

The T-50 is a substantial evolution of the Su-27 (T-10) family. It has a main trapezoid wing, all moving horizontal and vertical tails and a new kind of canard-like airfoils in front of the main wing (part 8 in the images). There are also slats, flapperons and ailerons. It is worth noting that only theT-50 along with F-22 are the only operational (or to be operational) fighters that are designed from the start with thrust vectoring. All others (ex Su-30) are adapted with movable nozzles at a later stage of their development.

The patent describes in more depth the operation and role of all aerodynamic surfaces. The fuselage is described as having 'dogtooth extensions' which are similar in shape and role with the leading root extensions (LERX) of many modern jet fighters and popular with Sukhoi. The fuselage houses the engine and their inlets at its edges and in between it is flattened, providing lift and also space for internal payload. The overall shape with the flat central fuselage, smoothly blended wings and integration of thrust vectoring with all movable surfaces consist what Sukhoi characterizes as integral aerodynamic design.

The wings are smoothly jointed with the flat shaped fuselage via a wide chord created by the negative sweep angle of the trailing edge of the wing. This allows for large values of absolute height especially at the root but small values of relative thickness combining good structural integrity with lower drag forces in the trans and supersonic flight.

One of the most innovative features of T-50 is the movable airfoils above and in front of the inlets. They are more similar to the slats of the main wing rather than Su-30's canards. These surfaces can rotate downwards around their rear edge. Similar to wing slats, they are rotated to assist control in high angles of attack (close to 90deg.) by reducing the exposed area to the direction of flight and also preserving lift by turning the influx over the fuselage (in a similar manner where slats have the same effect to the wing). These rotary parts shade the main engine inlets but there are auxiliary inlets at the sidewalls of the inlet tunnels where air can flow in avoiding restrictions.

The main wing is equipped with leading edge slats and also with flapperons and ailerons. The flapperons are used in-phase as flaps in take off and landing and moving differentially as ailerons in transonic and supersonic speed. The wing outer ailerons are used only at very low speeds and at take-off/landing to control roll.

The horizontal tail is all-moving and provides pitch control in all flight regimes by moving in-phase. At supersonic speed it also provides roll control by differential movement.

The vertical tails are also all-moving, a rather unusual approach. There are widely spaced in order to provide the necessary momentum arm but with a smaller surface. They move in-phase to provide yaw control operating as rudders and differentialy to increase drag, acting as an air brake. They are also inclined outwards to reduce the radar visibility in the lateral hemisphere.

Engine placement is a crucial part of T-50's architecture. The two engines are placed wide apart leaving space for payload between them. The air intakes are located similarly on each side of the fuselage and they are beveled in two planes in order to keep the flow attached even at high angles of attack. The air intakes are further apart in respect to the vertical and horizontal planes than the engines thus the ducts are curved. This curvature hides the compressor and reduces the radar signature of the engine in the forward hemisphere, a common practice in many recent (or not so recent) designs.

The engines are also placed at an angle relative to the vertical plane. Their nozzles are faced slightly outwards, this feature along with the significant distance between them and also the inherit use of thrust vectoring assigns a significant portion of the control of the aircraft to them. The thrust vector of each engine is used along with the aerodynamic surfaces to control the aircraft. The two nozzles can deflect the thrust vector by rotating around two axes (elements 15 and 16 at the image) either in common mode or differentially. The angle between their axis and the vertical plane can create rotating moments when different thrust is produced by each engine and also counter-acts the asymmetrical moment each engine creates because of its lateral distance from the longitudinal symmetry axis.

The T-50 doesn't appear to be as stealthy as F-22 an observation we have already stated in a previous post (Sukhoi T-50 - 5th gen. fighter flies). However its design is heavily influenced by low radar visibility requirements even if as the patents states that is contradicting with the demands for high ("super") maneuverability and good flight characteristics. This document doesn't go into great details, the T-50 has many surfaces and edges aligned together and as stated above the compressor of each engine is hidden by the curvature of the inlet path created by the inlet's two-plane offset. Many small or bigger details found on the 3 prototypes are far removed from stealth requirements, like the nozzle shape or the various air-inlets and exhausts. However like the Su-27 that evolved greatly from the T-10 prototypes to today's Su-35S there is room for gradual improvement, it is still too early.

You can find the full patent from Russian Patent Office in Russian (pdf) or translated. The inspiration to find this link (not very easy because we don't speak Russian!) came from a post by "flateric" at secretprojects.co.uk forum

 

[gambit]

One of the ways to achieve LPI is to keep the Average or RMS power of the signal down and not the peak power. The detection range achieved by the radar is governed by peak power of the output signal, whereas RMS and Average power are functions of time. If i were to put it in plain english, the "low power" mode in LPI is keeping the duration of the signal at minimum while maintaining the usual levels of power output thereby denying the RWR/ESSM enough time (and signal) to compute the general direction of radar signal and possibly make it mistake for a random spike in EM signature synonymous with EW modes and getting it filtered out of the equation.

I will put this in even simpler English...Low Probability of Intercept (LPI): The words 'Probability' and 'Intercept' are significant.

The word 'Probability' indicate that radar detection is essentially a stochastical process, fancy word for statistics, and when we deal with statistics, we involve time, more specifically a span or slice of time. This mean we have a starting point where we begins to gather 'stuff' or data and an end point where we stop amassing those 'stuff' or data and analyze what we have.

The word 'Intercept' mean to be noticed. How do we get to be noticed? By raising our hands in class to get the teacher's attention. By wearing a bright orange vest to stand out against the background so the rescuers can better see us. If we a law enforcement agents, we have bright red and blue flashing lights to alert people of our presence.

What LPI mode does is to DENY the target both power and duration of our radar transmissions in away that inside that span or slice of time, the target simply does not have enough 'stuff' or data to determine that he is being watched. In other words, we do not want to attract his attention. Inside that span or slice of time, can we transmit with enough power that rises above a certain level, in other words, we 'violate' a limit? Yes, we can and often a seeking radar in LPI mode will produce such power levels. But because we spread the amount of such violations, or power spikes, over two or more slices of time, the target does not have enough data to produce any credible statistical determination that he is being watched. So the reality is that LPI transmissions are actually detected by the target, just that he is, in a manner of speaking, too 'stupid' to realize he is being watched. Hence the entire phrasing: Low Probability of Intercept. Or low odds of being noticed.

Currently, the seeking radar has the advantage because the variations of transmission characteristics are unknown, in other words, the target must have at least a sample of those characteristics OVER TIME in order to search for patterns of seeking transmissions. If the target shorten that span or slice of time in order to analyze gathered data, the target runs the risks of creating false alarms. Remember, in statistics, the longer the duration of data gathering, the more accurate any prediction becomes. So in this case, prediction is actually a determination that I am being watched.

But lest anyone thinks it is hopeless for the defense against a seeking radar operating in LPI mode, information scientists and radar engineers may have discovered the truth that in order for the seeking radar to form a coherent virtual 'picture' of any target while in LPI mode, there may be some transmission rules that the seeking radar must obey...

The above is an example of the basic radar transmission pulse characteristics.

In LPI mode, amplitude must be lowered than normal, so in order to make up for decreased power upon a target, the seeking radar may need to increase focus on the other transmission pulse characteristics, such as more predictable inter-pulse frequency or 'gaps', and send that to the target. It is not that difficult to understand why. A klieg light on a target will produce far more target information than an ordinary flashlight, and from further away as well. A flashlight is that LPI mode. The seeker must be closer to the target and may need to even physically feel the target in order to determine what it is, but instead of actually feeling the target, the seeking radar may need to have certain things predictable in order to keep track of the target, and predictability is always helpful in any statistical analysis.

This is why the LPI algorithms are state secrets level.

 

[gambit]

The horizontal tail is all-moving and provides pitch control in all flight regimes by moving in-phase. At supersonic speed it also provides roll control by differential movement.

The vertical tails are also all-moving, a rather unusual approach. There are widely spaced in order to provide the necessary momentum arm but with a smaller surface. They move in-phase to provide yaw control operating as rudders and differentialy to increase drag, acting as an air brake. They are also inclined outwards to reduce the radar visibility in the lateral hemisphere.

Does not have to be 'outwards'. The goal is to eliminate the 90 deg 'corner reflector' structure...

As long as the design have a vertical stabilator that just happened to be near the horizontal tails, there is a 'corner reflector' and if the need is to reduced radar cross section (RCS) then 90 deg is a big no-no. This is why no 'stealth' aircraft will have a single vertical stab, because it cannot be canted. All 'stealth' aircrafts will either have no vertical stab, like the B-2, or must have twin canted vertical stabs in order to satisfy the aerodynamic requirements and to control radar observability.

 

[bhramos]

Obnosov: rockets for a fifth generation fighter will be ready in time

Обносов: ракеты для истребителя пятого поколения будут готовы в срок | Интервью | Лента новостей "РИА Новости"

 

[Armand2REP]

Ranges of TMC missiles or so exaggerated...

 

[p2prada]

Ranges of TMC missiles or so exaggerated...

I had pointed this out a very long time ago. A year or two before PAKFA's first flight, that an entirely new weapons package is being developed for the PAKFA.

 

[Armand2REP]

Not to mention they are highly unreliable.

 

[naive01]

Can some one pls tell me what role if any is being played in the development of this FGFA. As it is being touted as a joint development ???:cool2:

 

[naive01]

By india, I meant...

 

[Sridhar]

Russia to Increase Number of 5G Fighters in Test Flights

The number of Russia's Sukhoi T-50 5th generation fighters involved in test flights will be increased to 14 from three by 2015, Russian Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin told RIA Novosti on Monday.

"There are three fighters already in tests, another three are expected to be tested in the nearest future. The entire number of aircraft planned for test flights is 14," Zelin said.

The T-50, developed under the program PAK FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) at the Sukhoi aircraft design bureau, made its first public appearance at the MAKS-2011 air show near Moscow on August 17, 2011.

The fighter, which is being developed in partnership with India, made its maiden flight in the Russian Far East in early 2010.

Zelin also said that Russia's T-50 outstripped its U.S. and Chinese analogues.

"After a comparative analysis of the fighter's characteristics with the U.S. F-22 Raptor and Chinese J-20 stealth aircraft, we can conclude that PAK FA exceeds the foreign analogues in maximum speed, flight range, maximum takeoff weight and the maximum overload value," Zelin added.

Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The country's top military officials have said the stealth fighter jet, with a range of up to 5,500 kilomeeters, should enter service with the Air Force in 2015.

Russia to Increase Number of 5G Fighters in Test Flights | Defense | RIA Novosti

 

[Anshu Attri]

Oboronprom: The engine for the PAK FA will create in 2016

 ВЗГЛЯД / Оборонпром: Двигатель для ПАК ФА создадут в 2016 году

In 2016 will be developed the first prototype aircraft engine for the new generation of promising aviation complex tactical aviation, said on Monday, CEO of United Industrial Corporation "Oboronprom" Andrey Reus.
"We already have a timetable for the project, has begun the budget financing. In 2016 to produce the first prototype, "- said Reus, reports "Interfax " .
He noted that the engine for future aviation complex tactical aviation ( PAK FA ), as well as on engine family of PD-14, determined cooperation, was appointed chief designer, who is also deputy designer general of JDC.
"In developing a family of new engines, and PD-14 engine for the PAK FA involved the entire corporation. We have already gained a certain reserve and are confident that this work must do "- Reus said.

He said that also began active work on the engine for high-speed helicopter and general topics of high-speed helicopter. "It is - also an important program," - said Reus.

Responding to a question, what about the supply of engines for the new Russian Regional Jet "Dry Superdzhet100" Reus said that the work is routine procedure. Agreed with the KLA schedule for the delivery of 48 engines this year.

"We will attentively take this program. Although it is for us to put it mildly, is not effective in terms of money, the economy. We will raise the question of subsidizing the project. This is - a normal international practice: the new engine for output to a given cost needs some assistance from the state, "- said Reus.

 

[Anshu Attri]

Russian Air Force Commander: C-400 will protect the borders of Russia in 2012

Главком ВВС России: С-400 начнет защищать границы России в 2012 году | Интервью | Лента новостей "РИА Новости"

Start testing in China's own fifth-generation fighter has forced the Russian developers to focus more attention on building long-term domestic counterpart, which is called the T-50 (PAK FA). The acuteness of this problem makes the fact that the U.S. Air Force for seven years is such an aircraft - F-22 "Raptor". How complex is the development of the fifth generation of the special correspondent of RIA Novosti Girfanova Ruslan told the Russian Air Force Commander, Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said.

- How successful is the test of fifth generation fighter T-50? How many planes involved in the trials? It remains a term of admission to the Air Force (serial included) in 2015?

- To date, tests of fifth generation fighter aircraft are on schedule in accordance with the decisions taken. In the test program performed more than 100 flights. All the performance on tests generally confirm the requirements to a given pattern.
Currently, the tests presented three objects in the near future is expected to connect to the test three more objects. The total number of sites planned for the tests - 14 units.

- What are the advantages of the Russian version of the fifth-generation fighter T-50 compared to the U.S. F-22 "Raptor" and Chinese Chengdu J-20 "Black Eagle"?

- After the analysis of comparative analysis of the characteristics of the Russian fifth generation fighter T-50 with the American F-22 and Chinese J-20, we can conclude that the PAK FA is greater than their foreign counterparts on indicators such as maximum speed (as afterburner and besforsazhny) , the maximum flight range, thrust, the magnitude of the maximum realizable overload.
Despite its comparable with foreign analogues dimensions and weight characteristics, the T-50 has a substantially smaller quantity run and run. In addition to the characteristics of airborne equipment PAK FA is better than their foreign counterparts.
The basic comparative characteristics of the T-50, an American F-22 and Chinese J-20

http://ria.ru/interview/20120213/564604027.html

- Tell me, how is the creation of a new aerobatic team at the combat training aircraft Yak-130?
- Recently, the media got a lot of material on the establishment of pilot group on the Yak-130 instead of the famous "Knights" and "Swifts". I want to reassure our readers. Dissolution of the Russian Air Force pride is not planned.
Today, the world's leading aviation powers have aerobatic teams, mainly on light aircraft, which are quite successful act on the world aviation forums. We also do not have such a group. Creating a third pilot group in this segment of the Yak-130 would be a successful addition to the received worldwide recognition "Swifts" and "Hero" and amounted to compete with such groups as "Patrol de France" (France) or the "Red Arrows "(United Kingdom).
I think the creation of such a group will further strengthen the credibility of Russia as a great aviation power.
- How many aircraft radar A-50U will go to the Russian Air Force, and in what time frame?
- Modernization of aircraft radar surveillance is carried out in accordance with the state armaments program through 2020. As a result of the modernization of aircraft A-50 variant of the A-50U, we obtain the aviation complex equipped with advanced tools to detect and track air and surface targets, their coordinates, precise targeting and tracking aircraft in the air and surface targets, control aircraft in the air.
In addition, a more perfect interspecies aviation complex radar surveillance and targeting (AEW), A-100, providing reconnaissance, warning and command and control. His admission to the troops is expected by 2016.
- Tell us about the prospects for entry on duty of the third and fourth regiments of anti-aircraft missile systems S-400? Where they are deployed - at Moscow or Kaliningrad?
- In the current year is expected to flow to the troops of several sets of anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM), S-400 "Triumph". Unlike past years, this year, these systems will go to the military units stationed in the suburbs are not, and in coastal and border areas. Intercession on alert for air defense in 2012 after the deployment of air defense missile systems in the areas of permanent deployment.
- Is there an anti-aircraft missile system for the S-400 long-range missile? To our knowledge, there were problems with the project. Is there a problem with the creation of the C-500? '
- Anti-aircraft missile system of long-range S-400 "Triumph" is an improved version of anti-aircraft missile system S-300. It can affect all types of manned and unmanned aerial targets at ranges up to 400 km, ballistic missiles with a range of up to 3,500 km and hypersonic and other current and future means of air attack. In conjunction with the forces of air and space defense that SAM, as well as S-300PMU2 "Favorite" will be used to counter ballistic targets and conducting TMD.
As part of the S-400 was developed long-range anti-aircraft guided missile with a range of over 250 km. In the course of its creation had to solve a number of new scientific and technical problems associated with providing fire for the radio horizon. At present, the state tests of the missile arrival of the first production models are expected in late 2012.
JSC "GSKB" Almaz-Antei "in conjunction with the Air Force carries out routine work to improve the capacity of existing anti-aircraft missile systems, including the creation of S-500.
As a C-500, then work on it is in accordance with established deadlines. With its creation, the designers decide to set new goals, which is primarily related to the defeat of both existing and future air and space attacks, including in near space.
- Why a par with modern procurement of Mi-28 Russian Ministry of Defense procurement resumed regarding the export version of the old Mi-24 helicopters (Mi-35)?
- The state program provides for the procurement of arms as the Mi-28N helicopters and Mi-35M. Technological advance, created as part of development work on the helicopter Mi-28N, was used on the Mi-35M. In particular, the Mi-35M fitted with the Mi-28N helicopter blades and rotor head, engines VC 2500-02, shortened wing lifting system, the aircraft launcher for the application of anti-tank guided missiles. Weapon systems Mi-28N helicopters and Mi-35M in terms of anti-tank guided missiles and unguided missile systems are identical. Assigned initial resource and the calendar life of the airframe of the Mi-35M, achieved to date, significantly higher than that of the Mi-28N.
The cost of the Mi-28N and the cost of its life cycle greatly increase over the Mi-35.
- When do you expect the adoption of service in the Air Force shock drone (aircraft type), a contract under which the Ministry of Defense in 2011, signed with the companies "Transas" and "Falcon"?
- According to the instructions of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of September 1, 2011 and units are excluded from the unmanned aircraft of the Air Force and transferred to the Army. Therefore, the general customer of this kind of troops are now the Army.

 

[Armand2REP]

In 2016 to produce the first prototype, "- said Reus, reports "Interfax " .

We will be old men before this engine ever gets produced.

 

[trackwhack]

We will be old men before this engine ever gets produced.

You just cant stand Russian success can you?

Videos of the PAKFA weapons trials have already been posted. This plane is well on schedule if not ahead of it Armand. France does not even have a 5th Gen fighter apart from your bragging that France plans to skip directly to 6th gen fighters. So far all talk no show.

 

[Armand2REP]

You just cant stand Russian success can you?

Don't you have to complete something to have success?

Videos of the PAKFA weapons trials have already been posted. This plane is well on schedule if not ahead of it Armand. France does not even have a 5th Gen fighter apart from your bragging that France plans to skip directly to 6th gen fighters. So far all talk no show.

There are no such videos. This plane is well BEHIND schedule if not FAR BEHIND trackawhack. France does not need a 5th gen fighter because it is getting 5th gen UCAVs.