Sukhoi PAK FA

Armand2REP

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Just because you said so ?
You mean to say those thousands of engineers at saturn and Salyut have been doing nothing but drinking vodka for the past 3 years ?
They're stumped is what is being said which is why both Pogosyin and Putin have said recently the engines are still a problem.

the influence of Su-35 is also evident in Pak fa , which is at the apex of maneuverability.influence is influence it doesn't define the total performance of an aircraft, every airframe is different and so is its performance.
I agree, the influence of the Super Flanker is there. But when you make changes to an airframe with new designs you are not going to get the optimal performance. The Su-35 was designed to be the most manuverable fighter they could make. What was done to decrease the RCS will take its toll on the flight performance, particularly in the verticle axis.

The tailfins of YF-23 were called ruddervators , because they performed the function of both rudders and elevators , which means they couldn't perform as full fledged verticals , they had to sacrifice some of their rudder characterstics to work as elevators , which is not so in PAK FA the verticals act as dedicated rudders thus giving authority over yaw.
YF-23 also had inferior yaw control to the F-22 which is I why I stated it couldn't flat turn like it. With such small verticals, there is nothing to aid the T-50 in yaw control except the TVC. The wide engine set detracts from the control it would have with a centreline set.

Thrust vectoring doesn't act in roll axis , it acts in pitch and yaw axis.
The two-dimensional nozzle vectors thrust 20 degrees up and down for improved aircraft agility. This vectoring increases the roll rate of the aircraft by 50 percent and has features that contribute to the aircraft stealth requirements.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-f119.htm

The thrust vectoring in horizontal plane is called Yaw Axis thrust vectoring . are you telling me yaw axis thrust vectoring has no control over yaw?
Let us try some basic physics shall we , if both nozzles move in left direction, in which direction will the nose of the aircraft move? in the right direction , that is yaw axis thrust vectoring in layman's terms for you.
again here is some more basic physics for you
I am telling you the wide engine set will make a TVC in the yaw axis less effective. With a centreline TVC engine set it is easy to flat turn the plane with thrust being generated in one central direction. With a wide set the thrust is dispersed and meets more resistance to the turn. It also requires a greater degree of vectoring to achieve the desired result.

moment of a force = force x distance between point of application of force and axis of rotation

in this case the axis of rotation is the vertical line passing through the centre of the fuselage, so the further the engines are placed the more the moment will be generated. get it?
Sure, you got it so well you don't know TVC works in the roll axis.


Vortex generates lift , so in essence you are contradicting yourself,and as for the significance of the lift generated here are some figures for you

40% more wing area means 40 percent less wing loading.
It only generates significant lift if the vortex is allowed to expand across more surface area, such as the wing. That is why the ducts of modern fighters are drawn into the fuselage so they can get more lift and break less airflow for greater speed. The F-14 didn't generate significant lift in the centreline which is why it was used to house most of its ordinance load. The variable geometry of the wings allowed it to transition the needed lift in different flight regimes.

Now you are just trying to derail the topic , first you brought the YF-23 into discussion , now you are trying to bring the su-34 into discussion , just to save your tail.The su 34 has LERX which gives it more maneuverability but it is also heavier , less aerodynamic , less powerful and without 3d tvc which hampers it's maneuverability . how the heck can you compare PAK FA to Su-34.
You won't find movable LERX on the F-35 and F-22 because it increases RCS. It is just another compromise on stealth and maneuverability the Russians had to make. They wanted canards but it was too much surface area for a low RCS. They couldn't do away with it completely so they had to go with a mechanical LERX. Best compromise they could make IMO. It doesn't make it in the realm of F-22 or even in the control features of MKI's canards.

With this one , you just crossed the realm of uninformed and entered into the realm of stupid.

1.lower wing loading means better takeoff and landing performance
2.lower wing loading means better climb rate
3.lower wing loading means better cruise performance
4.most importantly lower wing loading means higher sustained turn rates.
and not only Pak-fa has large wings it also has centerline tunnel both of which combine to give the PAK FA extremely low wingloading.

still laughing?
Yeah, high wingload decreases maneverability. Why don't you read the basics of the principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_loading

I should start charging for lessons here at the École d'aviation.


Just another example of PHYSICAL limitation and not russian limitations , concealed engine means lesser thrust, Period.Heck Even the american's couldn't get comparable thrust that's why they ditched the YF-23 , moreover concealed engines means no TVC , this also is a physical limitation and not a russian limitation , that's why there aren't any concealed engines on the PAK FA cos russians put more importance on maneuverability.
So physical the Americans were able to break it with convergent flaps that didn't lose thrust and provided vectoring all in one design.

explained above.
More like failed..

This is what kopp said for which you started criticising him

Even if PAK FA Reaches IOC in 2015 without UHF Aesa and with current engines , it will still leave legacy us fighters and F-35 irrelevant , what is the point of contention?
IOC in 2015 is a pretty clear statement. You do realise IOC means the in service date and Kopp expects all these systems to be operational by 2015? He is going against not only common sense, but buying Russian propoganda even the Russian specialists at MDB and CSS don't believe.

If you don't have the time then please don't use that 0.5 m^2 figure , because it is unsubstantiated.
The 0.5m^2 figure didn't come off comments of a blog. It came from a popular published Indian periodical that has a reputation for " reliable reporting and responsible journalism."

Isn't this what kopp is saying , that america should start exporting F-22 and Allied Tacair should start updating , he hasn't said anything about your euro canards.
Of course that is what Kopp is saying. All he cares about is predicting the doom and gloom with Russian superiority over the backwards Allied air forces. Simple fact is, we aren't worried about the resurgence of the VVS. We have already excepted the fact the US won't export F-22 and the F-35 won't be all it is said to be. This is why we have moved on to stealth UCAV development. The NEURON will have strike capabilities without risking our pilots and high survivability above even the JSF. The Meteor will give us air dominance over current and future threats. AESA development is expanding the reach and effectiveness of our radars. Time doesn't stand still in the West, that is something Kopp seems to forget. While he is busy predicting the end of our technological advantage, he conveniently overlooks the continuous setbacks of the Russian MIC. For 15 years, time stood still in the Russian defence sector. Now that they are trying to restore it after 15 years of decay, they are finding it is not so easy.
 

gb009

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YF-23 also had inferior yaw control to the F-22 which is I why I stated it couldn't flat turn like it. With such small verticals, there is nothing to aid the T-50 in yaw control except the TVC. The wide engine set detracts from the control it would have with a centreline set.
You do realize that its the surface area of the movable part that counts. What makes you think that the rudder of F 22 & Su 35 have larger area than the entire tail of PAK FA. This is not the case (based on the dimensions of PAK FA available on the net).


yeah, high wingload decreases maneverability. Why don't you read the basics of the principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_loading

I should start charging for lessons here at the École d'aviation.
Read posts before replying to them.
notinlove basically says - less wing loading more maneverability
then you say - high wingload decreases maneverability
the link you have given says - The high wing loading also decreases maneuverability
You are definetly not disproving him with your comments/link. So what is the point you are trying to make here?


Of course that is what Kopp is saying. All he cares about is predicting the doom and gloom with Russian superiority over the backwards Allied air forces. Simple fact is, we aren't worried about the resurgence of the VVS. We have already excepted the fact the US won't export F-22 and the F-35 won't be all it is said to be. This is why we have moved on to stealth UCAV development. The NEURON will have strike capabilities without risking our pilots and high survivability above even the JSF. The Meteor will give us air dominance over current and future threats. AESA development is expanding the reach and effectiveness of our radars. Time doesn't stand still in the West, that is something Kopp seems to forget. While he is busy predicting the end of our technological advantage, he conveniently overlooks the continuous setbacks of the Russian MIC. For 15 years, time stood still in the Russian defence sector. Now that they are trying to restore it after 15 years of decay, they are finding it is not so easy
Yeah Russia which is 15years behind will have a 5th generation fighter in air by 2015 (or a couple of years after that). And you would have a UCAV that would fly at 0.8 mac (much much slower), will have stealth (so will pakfa), will have aesa (so will pakfa), and what about its range & weapons payload. By the way nice work copying B2 design. You are soooooooo optimistic about a UCAV that has not even made its first flight and Kopp is the one who is unrealistic. By 2020 - 2025 even India will have its MCA in the air (probably). So now it looks like you guys can't even keep up with a 3rd world developing country. After all if you can speculate about a project that has not made a single flight why can't I.
 

notinlove

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They're stumped is what is being said which is why both Pogosyin and Putin have said recently the engines are still a problem.
Just because you say so? For once stop putting words in people's mouth , all they said was that they were facing difficulties. facing difficulties and being stumped are two very different things.



I agree, the influence of the Super Flanker is there. But when you make changes to an airframe with new designs you are not going to get the optimal performance.
First you say it looks like YF-23 , now you agree it looks like Su-35 geez make up your mind. What you fail to understand is that it is a new airframe not a CHANGED one as you say , there will always be influences , every aircraft has two wings and a fuselage , does that mean they are a changed version of the wright brother's plane?
The Su-35 was designed to be the most manuverable fighter they could make.
Does the name Berkut ring any bells?
What was done to decrease the RCS will take its toll on the flight performance, particularly in the verticle axis.
So you do agree the RCS was reduced greatly as compared to the SU-35 :D.



YF-23 also had inferior yaw control to the F-22 which is I why I stated it couldn't flat turn like it. With such small verticals, there is nothing to aid the T-50 in yaw control except the TVC. The wide engine set detracts from the control it would have with a centreline set.
Once again and this time i will write it in bold so that you can understand , THOSE SMALL VERTICALS ARE ALL MOVING , THE ACTUAL MOVING SURFACE AREA IS GREATER THAN THE F-22 , and once again the widely placed engines will provide better control over yaw as compared to a center line set , and hey guess what the centerline set can't even have yaw axis TVC because the nozzles obstruct each other.



The two-dimensional nozzle vectors thrust 20 degrees up and down for improved aircraft agility. This vectoring increases the roll rate of the aircraft by 50 percent and has features that contribute to the aircraft stealth requirements



http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-f119.htm.
As they say , Stupidity Attracts Stupidity , there is just about one stupid article on the internet which claims that the TVC on raptor provides it roll control and you managed to find it . KUDOS.

Now for some Reality check
Symmetric TVC nozzles such as on the raptor can NEVER provide roll control. Roll control through TVC is possible only through assymetric nozzles which means one nozzles goes up and the other nozzle goes down . And even Assymetric nozzles won't provide much roll control to the raptor bec ause of its centerline engine set , the moment of the force won't be good enough because for roll the axis of rotation is the centerline and the engines are placed too close to it , whereas if sukhoi fits assymetric nozzles on the PAK FA it will have excellent roll control because of widely placed engines.

And about why the Raptor had 50 percent better Roll rate

"Roll control was provided by differential movement of the horizontal tail surfaces, flaperons and airlerons. Although thrust vectoring was only used symmetrically, for pitch control the use of thrust vectoring dramatically increased the roll rate capability of the YF-22 especially at lower airspeeds. This was because tv allowed any given pitch condition to be achieved with less horizontal tail deflection, leaving more horizontal tail movement available for roll control."
The above information is from page 142 of the book : Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor: Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter by David C. Aronstein
This book is considered one the finest engineering analysis of the raptor , this was from a hard copy that my friend had , so i cannot post any links , if anybody manages to find a soft copy please do send me the link i would be very obliged.

I am telling you the wide engine set will make a TVC in the yaw axis less effective. With a centreline TVC engine set it is easy to flat turn the plane with thrust being generated in one central direction. With a wide set the thrust is dispersed and meets more resistance to the turn. It also requires a greater degree of vectoring to achieve the desired result.
Some more BS by you. as explained above and in previous post wider placed engines provide better yaw control then centerline engines .



Sure, you got it so well you don't know TVC works in the roll axis.
Yes i have got it so well.
moment of a force = force x distance between point of application of force and axis of rotation

in this case the axis of rotation is the vertical line passing through the centre of the fuselage, so the further the engines are placed the more the moment will be generated

and this analysis still holds good . no matter how much BS you produce , you cannot challenge basic physics.

I sincerely feel that if you used the time you take in putting smilies in your post for some actual reading , you wouldn't have been making such stupid arguments


It only generates significant lift if the vortex is allowed to expand across more surface area, such as the wing. That is why the ducts of modern fighters are drawn into the fuselage so they can get more lift and break less airflow for greater speed.
You are fast becoming the king of BS
You do understand you just contradicted yourself again here. the point is , to get lift you need to generate a vortex , and to generate a vortex you need to break airflow :|. the ducts of modern fighters are drawn inward to increase speed , but it also reduces lift not increases it.

The F-14 didn't generate significant lift in the centreline
When the wings of the F-14 were swept back at an angle of 68 degrees . the fuselage generated 60 percent of the total lift produced by the aircraft.
initial models of the fulcrum produced 40 percent of their lift through fuselage.
I guess significant has another meaning in france.
which is why it was used to house most of its ordinance load.
The centerline was used to house most of the Tomcat's load because it was really hard to build pylons for the moving sweep wings and maintain them , it had nothing to do with lift and drag.



You won't find movable LERX on the F-35 and F-22 because it increases RCS. It is just another compromise on stealth and maneuverability the Russians had to make. They wanted canards but it was too much surface area for a low RCS. They couldn't do away with it completely so they had to go with a mechanical LERX. Best compromise they could make IMO. It doesn't make it in the realm of F-22 or even in the control features of MKI's canards.
Them LERX are just about The best thing on the PAK , not the stealth , not the engines , not the radar and neither the avionics.
Because Sukhoi just solved so many problems with just a single piece of equipment .
1.Lerx help in the inlet to maintain variable airflow in the inlet in essence allowing the PAK to go to greater speeds, something which is missing in the raptor , it is limited to a top speed of mach 1.8-2 because of its fixed geometry inlets.

2. As much as you would like to believe that LERX will hamper stealth, they won't because they won't be moving all the time while in cruise mode for BVR engagements , they will come into play in a dogfight when the PAK will have to perform high alpha maneuvers, at that point of time stealth doesn't mean squat anyways.



Yeah, high wingload decreases maneverability. Why don't you read the basics of the principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_loading
This is what i wrote, and your reply to it
6.look at those huge wings , contributing to lower wing loading.

And you think that makes it more maneuverable...
Wow way to do a 180 , You really change colour even faster than a chameleon or should i say you do FLAT TURNS even better than the raptor :D

I should start charging for lessons here at the École d'aviation.
The only lessons you can charge for are "how to spread misinformation 101" and "how to post BS an Advanced course"

So physical the Americans were able to break it with convergent flaps that didn't lose thrust and provided vectoring all in one design.
YF-23 had thrust vectoring ????
And if you are talking about F-22 then its engines are not concealed just the nozzles have a saw tooth design.

More like failed..
More like you are mathematically challenged



IOC in 2015 is a pretty clear statement. You do realise IOC means the in service date and Kopp expects all these systems to be operational by 2015? He is going against not only common sense, but buying Russian propoganda even the Russian specialists at MDB and CSS don't believe.
This is what kopp wrote
The supersonic cruise capability, integrated sensor suite, respectable VLO performance, extreme agility and exceptional persistence of a mature production PAK-FA will produce a significant impact in the post 2015 period,
and even if the UHF aesa and new engines aren't ready by 2015 , the PAK will still have all these abilities and it will still outperform all legacy US fighters as well as the F-35.


The 0.5m^2 figure didn't come off comments of a blog. It came from a popular published Indian periodical that has a reputation for " reliable reporting and responsible journalism."
and the same "reliable reporting and responsible journalist" has said that he does not know shit about RCS adn the same "reliable reporting and responsible journalist" has not given any radar band for the RCS mentioned. so its about time you let go of that figure.



Of course that is what Kopp is saying. All he cares about is predicting the doom and gloom with Russian superiority over the backwards Allied air forces. Simple fact is, we aren't worried about the resurgence of the VVS. We have already excepted the fact the US won't export F-22 and the F-35 won't be all it is said to be. This is why we have moved on to stealth UCAV development. The NEURON will have strike capabilities without risking our pilots and high survivability above even the JSF. The Meteor will give us air dominance over current and future threats. AESA development is expanding the reach and effectiveness of our radars. Time doesn't stand still in the West, that is something Kopp seems to forget. While he is busy predicting the end of our technological advantage, he conveniently overlooks the continuous setbacks of the Russian MIC. For 15 years, time stood still in the Russian defence sector. Now that they are trying to restore it after 15 years of decay, they are finding it is not so easy.
First broaden your perspective , all you can see is france , allied tacair has Australia , netherlands and many other countries which do not have any other plan except the JSF and those are the countries that kopp was talking about, france is not even a partner in the JSF program so kopp wasn't even talking about you , but you just jumped on his statement.

Stealth UCAV . ohh we will see how much of Air dominance your paper stealth UCAV will provide you against a Mig-29 , PAK FA is beyond the realms of what your UCAV will be able to handle.

Time didn't stand still for you guys but you still couldn't make an aircraft that could beat the Su-35 , leave alone the PAK FA .
 
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p2prada

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You won't find movable LERX on the F-35 and F-22 because it increases RCS. It is just another compromise on stealth and maneuverability the Russians had to make. They wanted canards but it was too much surface area for a low RCS. They couldn't do away with it completely so they had to go with a mechanical LERX. Best compromise they could make IMO. It doesn't make it in the realm of F-22 or even in the control features of MKI's canards.
So, you mean to say the F-22 will be a better flier and more stealthy based on your assumption that the PAKFA verticals are small and has movable LERX.

The 0.5m^2 figure didn't come off comments of a blog. It came from a popular published Indian periodical that has a reputation for " reliable reporting and responsible journalism."
Ajai Shukla. Oh! Very reliable. And he heard it from a guy who heard it from another guy. Even he is sceptical about it.
 

p2prada

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Nice post there NIL. You beat me to him.

I'm glad you did too. I barely have the time anymore to get into useless debating.

"TVC works in the Roll axis" takes the cake.
 

notinlove

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Nice post there NIL. You beat me to him.

I'm glad you did too. I barely have the time anymore to get into useless debating.

"TVC works in the Roll axis" takes the cake.
Thanks :)

even i am going to stop now , takes too much of time (which i don't have anymore)
 

Armand2REP

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Just because you say so? For once stop putting words in people's mouth , all they said was that they were facing difficulties. facing difficulties and being stumped are two very different things.

Check a dictionary guy. I don't have time to give you an english lesson.

First you say it looks like YF-23 , now you agree it looks like Su-35 geez make up your mind. What you fail to understand is that it is a new airframe not a CHANGED one as you say , there will always be influences , every aircraft has two wings and a fuselage , does that mean they are a changed version of the wright brother's plane?
I have been saying for the last three weeks it has influence from all three. Why don't you keep up?

Does the name Berkut ring any bells?
Does the word non-production tech demonstrator ring any bells?

So you do agree the RCS was reduced greatly as compared to the SU-35 :D.
.5m^2 would be a vast improvement over the Su-35. It won't be able to dominate a knife fight with it.

Once again and this time i will write it in bold so that you can understand , THOSE SMALL VERTICALS ARE ALL MOVING , THE ACTUAL MOVING SURFACE AREA IS GREATER THAN THE F-22 , and once again the widely placed engines will provide better control over yaw as compared to a center line set , and hey guess what the centerline set can't even have yaw axis TVC because the nozzles obstruct each other.
lol... the moving surface is not what gives it the control. It is the change in airflow over the surface. An all mechanical tail is not required if you have enough surface area for airflow change. The all mechanical is going to increase RCS when it moves more than a sectioned vertical and it will respond slower to commands since it has a much wider axis to cross.

As they say , Stupidity Attracts Stupidity , there is just about one stupid article on the internet which claims that the TVC on raptor provides it roll control and you managed to find it . KUDOS.
I guess you didn't look very hard.

The gases coming out of the vector nozzle help push the airplane's nose up or down. This vectoring increases the roll rate of the plane by 50 percent, making it much more maneuverable than other fighters.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/f-22-raptor5.htm

Now for some Reality check
Symmetric TVC nozzles such as on the raptor can NEVER provide roll control. Roll control through TVC is possible only through assymetric nozzles which means one nozzles goes up and the other nozzle goes down . And even Assymetric nozzles won't provide much roll control to the raptor bec ause of its centerline engine set , the moment of the force won't be good enough because for roll the axis of rotation is the centerline and the engines are placed too close to it , whereas if sukhoi fits assymetric nozzles on the PAK FA it will have excellent roll control because of widely placed engines.
You totally missed the concept. TVC doesn't pitch one up and one down. They both pitch at the same angle which pushes the nose without having to tie up the control surfaces.

And about why the Raptor had 50 percent better Roll rate

The above information is from page 142 of the book : Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor: Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter by David C. Aronstein
This book is considered one the finest engineering analysis of the raptor , this was from a hard copy that my friend had , so i cannot post any links , if anybody manages to find a soft copy please do send me the link i would be very obliged.
Lets review what you said... "Thrust vectoring doesn't act in roll axis"

Wow, you justed pwned yourself with your own source yet you want to call me stupid.

Some more BS by you. as explained above and in previous post wider placed engines provide better yaw control then centerline engines .
As explained above? It was talking about pitch control. That means up and down. Yaw is side to side. Seriously, École d'aviation is going to have to start charging you tuition.

Yes i have got it so well.
moment of a force = force x distance between point of application of force and axis of rotation

in this case the axis of rotation is the vertical line passing through the centre of the fuselage, so the further the engines are placed the more the moment will be generated

and this analysis still holds good . no matter how much BS you produce , you cannot challenge basic physics.

I sincerely feel that if you used the time you take in putting smilies in your post for some actual reading , you wouldn't have been making such stupid arguments
Here is an anology hopefully even you can understand. Centreline engines with TVC act as a rudder, with all the thrust in one location it acts as a huge rudder with a large amount of force pushing the aircraft in the desired direction. Spacing the engines out decreases the amount of force that can be placed in the same location. This is acting as two smaller rudders which will not have the same force to push it. It is the quite basic Third Newtonian law of Motion.


Them LERX are just about The best thing on the PAK , not the stealth , not the engines , not the radar and neither the avionics.
Because Sukhoi just solved so many problems with just a single piece of equipment .
1.Lerx help in the inlet to maintain variable airflow in the inlet in essence allowing the PAK to go to greater speeds, something which is missing in the raptor , it is limited to a top speed of mach 1.8-2 because of its fixed geometry inlets.

2. As much as you would like to believe that LERX will hamper stealth, they won't because they won't be moving all the time while in cruise mode for BVR engagements , they will come into play in a dogfight when the PAK will have to perform high alpha maneuvers, at that point of time stealth doesn't mean squat anyways.
Are you drinking their vodka? Your statements have no basis in reality. It does nothing to increase its top speed. It doesn't maintain airflow over the inlet when the only mechanical motion it has is down. If anything it will break airflow over the inlet. LERX is for generating lift on top of the wing to aid in high AoA. It increases the surface area increasing RCS. When in motion will only increase it further. The F-22 has a far greater top speed than Mach 1.8-2.
 
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notinlove

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I will take that as your concession speech.
Concession speech ?? i have already buried you . everybody knows that except you that is because you don't want to know , don't worry i will reply just one last time to that BS post of yours as soon as i get time. in the meanwhile you can start a poll and let people vote as to whose technical analysis they find substantiated and believable . another thing i would suggest is ,read up on thrust vectoring.
 

Armand2REP

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Concession speech ?? i have already buried you . everybody knows that except you that is because you don't want to know , don't worry i will reply just one last time to that BS post of yours as soon as i get time. in the meanwhile you can start a poll and let people vote as to whose technical analysis they find substantiated and believable . another thing i would suggest is ,read up on thrust vectoring.
Buried me? I'm still here. You're the one saying you're going to bail. Makes sense when you don't have anything intelligible to say. It takes you so much time to respond because you don't know what you're talking about. It took you well over an hour just to write post #363. When you know the principles you don't have to spend time looking them up.
 

Singh

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Okay guys cut it off. Shoot the message not the messenger.
 

Armand2REP

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Okay guys cut it off. Shoot the message not the messenger.
More than happy to, whenever he gets around to a message that isn't telling me how stupid and buried I am.
 

sfx

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.5m^2 would be a vast improvement over the Su-35. It won't be able to dominate a knife fight with it.
Yeah. 0.5m2 RCS for airframe over 5m2 of SU-35 is a vast improvement . But in final RAM covering it will be even better, 1m2 for Su-35 and 0.005m2 for PAK FA. It will for sure dominate everything.
 

Anshu Attri

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http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230210-1.html

The first flight of Russia's stealthy PAK-FA is the best recent example of the problems examined in the United States Defense Science Board report on “Capability Surprise”, released in September last year. This study is an important step forward in identifying the causes of many past, current and developing strategic failures. A capability surprise arises whenever an opponent makes use of a new capability, or uses an existing capability in a different way, catching the target or victim off guard1.

Al Qaeda's use in September, 2001, of passenger laden hijacked aircraft as cruise missiles was a good example of a capability surprise.

The PAK-FA is, but at many more levels, another case of capability surprise for Western military leaders.

The DSB study divides capability surprises into two broad categories, and makes some important observations:

Capability surprise can spring from many sources: scientific breakthrough in the laboratory, rapid fielding of a known technology, or new operational use of an existing capability or technology. A review of many surprises that occurred over the past century suggests that surprises tend to fall into two major categories:

▪ “Known” surprises—those few that the United States should have known were coming, but for which it did not adequately prepare. For this category of surprise, the potential and evidence are clear; the effects are potentially catastrophic; and dealing with them is difficult, costly, and sometimes counter-cultural. We specifically include space, cyber, and nuclear in this category today. We might also have included bio, but with a focus on threats to military operations, we chose not to.

▪ “Surprising” surprises—those many that the nation might have known about or at least anticipated, but which were buried among hundreds or thousands of other possibilities. In this case, the evidence and consequences are less clear, the possibilities are many, and the nation cannot afford to pursue them all.

In both cases, the biggest issue is not a failure to envision events that may be surprising. It is a failure to decide which ones to act upon, and to what degree. That failure results, at least partially, from the fact that there is no systematic mechanism in place within DOD or the interagency to help decide which events to act on aggressively, which to treat to a lesser degree, and which to ignore, at least for the time being. Thus, the principle recommendations of this study focus on developing the approaches and the talent to better manage surprise—to prevent it from happening or, should surprise occur, to be in a position to rapidly mitigate its consequences.

The DSB argues that five specific measures should be implemented to manage capability surprises. These are:

1. Integration and management of surprise at a high enough level to affect senior decision making.

2. Red teaming as the norm instead of the exception.

3. Rapid fielding that is truly rapid and can be effectively employed when the circumstances warrant.

4. Pointed improvements in “strategic” intelligence.

5. For known surprises, the Secretary of Defense establish a formal mechanism to ensure Department progress in addressing the limited number of most critical threats.

For surprise management to be successful, however, there needs to be support from leadership at the highest levels—a recurring theme of this study. Emphasis should be placed on encouraging alternative viewpoints, requiring broad risk/opportunity assessment, integrating and synthesizing, and enhancing knowledge through cross-domain teaming. Without such leadership, the tendency will be to maintain the status quo … and the nation will be seriously surprised.

The reasoning by the DSB is sound. The open question is whether in the current political climate produced by SecDef Gates and his inner circle, the five proposed measures have any chance of being robustly implemented, let alone implemented at all.

Let us consider but one level where the PAK-FA effects ‘capability surprise’ - the issue of the diminishing United States Tactical Air combat capability effectiveness currently in progress, a decline that changes the United States’ ranking from air dominance to ‘also ran’.

The collapse of United States TACAIR qualifies as a “known surprise” in every respect. Surprisingly, it is not included in the three “current” types of surprise the DSB covered in detail; being nuclear, cyber, and space surprise.

Numerous analysts including APA, academics, US Air Force generals serving and retired, and the Air Force Association, have repeatedly commented on the increasing mismatch between existing and planned United States tactical fighter fleet capabilities, and the ever advancing capabilities of foreign fighter aircraft, sensors and air defence weapons, being developed and marketed globally by Russian, Chinese and Indian industry.

APA has published numerous works on this topic, and compiled a collection of more than eighty quite detailed technical reports covering the area, by multiple authors, necessitating the translation of hundreds of foreign language publications.

At the rate of decline of United States air combat power, and the rise of foreign air combat capability, there are but a few years before ‘mismatch’ becomes ‘overmatch’ - at the expense of the United States and its Allies.

The TACAIR problem is well understood by the expert community and well documented in the public domain, yet multiple consecutive policy decisions, and public statements, clearly indicate that the OSD and its analogues in other Western nations neither acknowledge nor accept its existence, or where its existence is partially acknowledged, its relevance is not.

The absence of any meaningful response to the development and first flight of the PAK-FA from the Washington OSD is proof positive, more likely proof absolute, that the mechanisms of organisational breakdown and failures in governance discussed by the DSB are currently and actively in play within the OSD.

The PAK-FA is a “known capability surprise” in the sense that everybody knew the Russians were developing it. It is a “surprising capability surprise” in the sense that Russian mastery of stealth shaping is much better than Western analysts, including APA, expected. The advances in PAK-FA kinematic and aerodynamic capability qualify as “known capability surprise”, the clever way that stealth was not compromised by the aerodynamic design and vice-versa is a “surprising capability surprise”2.

If the DSB report has one weakness, it is that it insufficiently explores the internal mechanisms of organisational dysfunction which produce capability surprises. The report does usefully summarise some of these as:
Thought it could respond without doing anything new;
Knew it was likely, understood the magnitude of the implications, but didn’t pursue it appropriately;
Did not foresee the full consequences of an action and thus “did it to ourselves”;
Believed the adversary was not up to it;
Believed the adversary would not dare;
Knew it might happen, but was trapped in its own paradigms;
Didn’t imagine or anticipate the strategic impact;
Lost it in the “signal-to-noise” of other possibilities;
Imagined it, but thought it was years away;
Was willing to take the risk that it would not happen.
The more fundamental underlying root causes of these behaviours deserve much better treatment and we summarise them here:
Failure to think critically about critical problems;
Strategic illiteracy;
Technological illiteracy;
Operational illiteracy;
Indifference to material reality in the pursuit of self vested interests a.k.a “a total indifference to what is real”;
Insistence that subordinates deliver “good news” rather than “bad news”; a.k.a. “shooting the messenger”;
Insistence on consensus-seeking behaviour rather than critical argument;
Denial of facts, data or findings which are not politically convenient;
Institutionalising groupthink behaviours to maintain internal organisational cohesion;
Institutionalising group-narcissistic behaviours to maintain internal organisational cohesion;
Optimising planning for very short term outcomes with no regard for long term consequences;
Prioritising political self-interest over national interest, or alliance interests; and
Simple organisational laziness and hubris – failure to focus on potential and emerging threats on the basis that “we are too big to fail”.
These failures are more than often inter-related, and more than often mutually supporting.

We should also give some thought about what is NOT stated in the DSB report.

A powerful analytical tool is to divide a complex problem into ‘Process’ and ‘Content’, which the DSB does in part. As mentioned above, if the Processes are not in place, there is no chance of delivering cogent, timely and hence effective ‘Content’.

The report does not make a recommendation on how to assess the risk from a Capability Surprise, once identified. One method is this:

(Consequence of a Surprise) x (Likelihood of Surprise) = (Level of Risk)

Some strategic changes are made at an imperceptible but inexorable rate, so that by the time the problem is detected, it is too late to recover the situation. A domestic example is termites eating the structure of your house. A military example is the decline of United States' TACAIR Capability, the rise of potential adversaries’ TACAIR Capabilities such that in a military conflagration, the United States is soundly defeated and in losing the battle, is at risk of losing the war. Even if the adversaries’ overmatch is detected, there may be insufficient time to recover – building air combat capability is the work of decades, not months. If the tactically defeated, the United States is forced into a retreat to a nuclear exchange, that will draw the entire world into holocaust.

Lastly, there is no mention in the DSB Paper of any prevention or intervention response once a Capability Surprise is discovered by a robust ‘Process and Content’ structure, and an assessment of unacceptable Levels of Risk.

Again, we may use the PAK-FA as an example. The existence and potential air combat capability can be no longer classified as a ‘surprise’ as it has happened. The critical question is what national response the United States and its allies will mount to the PAK-FA.

The only air combat aircraft in the world that can match an operational PAK-FA is the F-22. Yet on the recommendation of SecDef Gates, the F-22A program was terminated at 187 aircraft – an insufficient number when Russia and India are planning to produce 500 plus PAK-FAs, and Sukhoi will be aggressively marketing export versions of the PAK-FA. Would Congress, finely balanced over the termination of the F-22A, have approved the program termination had they known about the surprisingly advanced PAK-FA at the time? Highly unlikely.

Another element of the PAK-FA ‘surprise’ is that the aircraft has been designed with a clear understanding of the effects of ‘stealth’ on air combat when both sides present with low-observable aircraft. Obviously, the combatants will be closer when their radar sensors detect the other side, so close in fact that the Infra-Red Scan and Track (IRST) might be the first sensor to detect the presence of an enemy aircraft. The problem is this: the PAK-FA has IRST capability and the F-22A does not. Worse, the extreme agility of the PAK-FA will allow it to dodge the F-22A’s AIM-120 missile shots, while the Raptor will likely not be able to out-turn the more advanced Russian (and Chinese) missiles. Surviving F-22As would then be committed to what fighter pilots call a ‘knife fight’ – close-in dogfights where superior agility wins – and the PAK-FA will out-manoeuvre the F-22A.

The answer to this air combat puzzle is simple: build more F-22s and build a better F-22, and give it better missiles. The basic design of the F-22 is sound and there is internal space for additional sensors such as IRST, cheek AESA arrays and possibly lower frequency radar that will detect the PAK-FA first. The thrust of the F119 series engines could be increased and a more advanced 3D thrust-vectoring nozzle fitted. Controls with more power and driven by smarter software can be added. The MBDA Meteor missile has a specification and design to kill a 9G target at 50,000 feet – about the edge of where the PAK-FA can operate. If the Europeans can make such a missile, why not the United States?

So, the question is this: if the answer is simple and obvious, will the United States respond to the PAK-FA surprise with a reversal of the decision to end F-22A production and fund the ongoing production of the F-22A while the upgraded F-22C is being designed?

Will it release the F-22A to its allies like Australia, Japan and Israel, and ask its NATO partners if any would induct the F-22A into their air combat aircraft fleets?

Will it offer F-22A upgrade programs as the full capability of the PAK-FA is revealed?

And, finally, will it commit to the development of a missile capable of killing aircraft with extreme agility, such as the PAK-FA and, similarly, the Su-35S?

The PAK-FA surprise places the United States right at the fork in the road of military capability development. One path is the ‘we are too big to fail’ / ‘there is no alternative’ hubris that leads to certain defeat in future air combat. The other is an immediate commitment to use existing United States technology, weapons development skills and military financing to produce a PAK-FA killer before the PAK-FA becomes operational.

The Defense Science Board’s Capability Surprise Report and the recently published Supporting Papers are a giant step forward. However, these fine works are but a first and necessary step in a long journey that we must all traverse if the World is to enjoy peace and prosperity. The PAK-FA surprise is a litmus-test for the United States. We can all watch and wait to see the United States' reaction, starting with SecDef Gates' recommendation to his Commander-in-Chief President Barack Obama, and then to Congress. Or we can exert our democratic right to demand our political leaders to engage in the debate and insist SecDef Gates does what is right and what is best.

If he fails this simple test by failing to heed the message and act responsibly, then the United States and its allies can expect many more ‘Capability Surprises’. None of them will be pleasant.
 

notinlove

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Check a dictionary guy. I don't have time to give you an english lesson.
Stumped means to be at a loss or having no clue , but the russians said we are facing difficulties but work is continuing , maybe you should go check a dictionary .

I have been saying for the last three weeks it has influence from all three. Why don't you keep up?
because i don't need to keep up with someone who changes his opinion every other day , first it was a modified flanker then it became Yf-23 + F-22, First wing loading didn't contribute to maneuverability then suddenly it started contributing.how many times are you going to change your stand?

Does the word non-production tech demonstrator ring any bells?
according to you Su-35 was the most maneuverable fighter that the russians could make , but they made one that was even more maneuverable and proved you wrong. to put that into production or not is entirely upto them. the bottomline is they can improve upon the maneuverability of a Su-35.


.5m^2 would be a vast improvement over the Su-35. It won't be able to dominate a knife fight with it.
You wouldn't let go the 0.5 m^2 figure would you, even after getting mauled for it, you are like a stubborn kid who won't let go of his candy.

lol... the moving surface is not what gives it the control. It is the change in airflow over the surface. An all mechanical tail is not required if you have enough surface area for airflow change
Wow another masterpiece.
How do you change the airflow without moving surfaces??

The all mechanical is going to increase RCS when it moves more than a sectioned vertical and
only when it is moving profusely which won't happen in a cruising BVR engagement , and in WVR RCS doesn't matter

it will respond slower to commands since it has a much wider axis to cross.
Lol . you are seriously funny.
It simply depends on the power of the actuator , use a powerful enough actuator and it will move faster than even your grinder if you want.

I guess you didn't look very hard.

The gases coming out of the vector nozzle help push the airplane's nose up or down. This vectoring increases the roll rate of the plane by 50 percent, making it much more maneuverable than other fighters.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/f-22-raptor5.htm

Lets review what you said... "Thrust vectoring doesn't act in roll axis"

Wow, you justed pwned yourself with your own source yet you want to call me stupid.
I take it as you don't know anything about thrust vectoring , at times it feels like you are even foggy on basic aerodynamic control surfaces, you seem to get confused between roll, pitch and yaw.
My source explicitly says that thrust vectoring on the raptor helps only in the pitch axis that in effect leaves the horizintal tails for roll axis , it doesn't say thrust vectoring provides roll control , (i suspect you have comprehension problems)

and for the Third time THRUST VECTORING DOES NOT PROVIDE ROLL CONTROL

but as usual you won't believe what i say , so i'll let NASA do the talking instead

The twin-engine F-15 is equipped with new Pratt & Whitney nozzles that can turn up to 20 degrees in any direction, giving the aircraft thrust control in the pitch (up and down) and yaw (left and right) directions.
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-15ACTIVE/HTML/EC96-43456-2.html
These nozzles give the aircraft thrust control in the pitch (up and down) and yaw (left and right) directions
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-15ACTIVE/HTML/EC95-43338-13.html
They provided both pitch (up and down) and yaw (right and left) forces to enhance maneuverability
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-002-DFRC.html
I suggest you write to those guys over at NASA and tell them how stupid and useless they are , because even after all those PHD's in aero space technology they still don't know that thrust vectoring acts in roll axis, and when you are at it you should also tell them that you are smarter than all of them combined and you should be made the head of NASA.

You totally missed the concept. TVC doesn't pitch one up and one down. They both pitch at the same angle which pushes the nose without having to tie up the control surfaces.
Not at the moment it does not, but it is the only way to go if you want roll control through thrust vectoring.
. The two nozzles can also be deflected differentially (one producing up force, the other down force) to provide roll control.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/q0095.shtml
so as to discharge a greater portion of the exhaust gas flowing therethrough on opposite sides of a horizontal plane passing through the nozzle central axis 26. The result of these two skewed exhaust flows is to develop a counterclockwise moment about the central axis 26 when viewed in the forward looking direction as in FIG. 9. As with the previous vectored thrust configurations, the roll thrust configuration of FIG. 9 may be achieved both in the clockwise direction
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4878617/description.html
The T-50 and the T-10 family are distinguished by widely separated engines, which is important because that's the only way to use vectored thrust in roll.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

As explained above? It was talking about pitch control. That means up and down. Yaw is side to side. Seriously, École d'aviation is going to have to start charging you tuition.



Here is an anology hopefully even you can understand. Centreline engines with TVC act as a rudder, with all the thrust in one location it acts as a huge rudder with a large amount of force pushing the aircraft in the desired direction. Spacing the engines out decreases the amount of force that can be placed in the same location. This is acting as two smaller rudders which will not have the same force to push it. It is the quite basic Third Newtonian law of Motion.
I suggest you first read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(physics))
Then think about what i said, if you are still having problems in understanding you can read this discussion , it will help you a lot.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-11016.html
I f you are still having problems in understanding , you should go to your psych and tell him that your ego is hampering your brain activity.


Are you drinking their vodka? Your statements have no basis in reality. It does nothing to increase its top speed. It doesn't maintain airflow over the inlet when the only mechanical motion it has is down. If anything it will break airflow over the inlet.
Seriously it should be me who should be charging you for these lessons.

Jet engines cannot operate efficiently at inlet air speeds above mach 1 due to less pressure of air at the turbine face , so when an aircraft is moving at speeds above mach 1 , it needs a ramp inside the inlet which reduces airspeed and generates oblique shock waves , these shock waves help in compressing the air and providing proper pressure of air at the turbine face . now to control the shock waves one needs to move the ramp thsi is called avariable geometry intake. The F-22 does not have a variable geometry intake so it's engine works ok upto mach 1.8-2(where it is not very difficult to control the shock waves) , after mach 2 it becomes very difficult to control the shock waves without any moving parts in the inlet and it loses thrust rapidly.

In the PAK those LERX comedown and slow down the airflow in the inlets and generate shock waves which should help it at speeds even above mach 2.

LERX is for generating lift on top of the wing to aid in high AoA.
It does that too ,wehn the PAK is not using it for dashes above mach 2 , isn't that absolutely brilliant 2 birds with one stone, hats off to SUKHOI.

It increases the surface area increasing RCS. When in motion will only increase it further.
Don't troll, this has been explained in previous post

The F-22 has a far greater top speed than Mach 1.8-2.
Debatable at best , the top speed has not been disclosed.
but just so you know
the official f22 site ,
http://www.f22-raptor.com/
has this article on it http://www.brahmand.com/news/PAK-FA-F-22--F-35-readies-for-future-dogfight/3077/1/30.html#

Which states that the the top speed of the Raptor is Mach 2.
 
Last edited:

notinlove

Regular Member
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Buried me? I'm still here. You're the one saying you're going to bail. Makes sense when you don't have anything intelligible to say. It takes you so much time to respond because you don't know what you're talking about. It took you well over an hour just to write post #363. When you know the principles you don't have to spend time looking them up.
It took me an hour to write that post because like you i don't write BS without thinking , i am patient and i weigh and write my words carefully , and the main reason why it takes me such a long time to reply to you is not because i don't know the principles but the opposite
you don't know the basic principle of physics and also have the tendency to refute them , so i have to sift through all the crap on the internet to provide you with credible sources which you cannot just refute.
 

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