Sukhoi PAK FA

[Zoravar]

WOah.This plane might be stealth and all but doesnt look at all majestic.The flankers redefined the word majestic.BUt a plane is a plane and not a model.

 

[Rage]

Did you guys notice all the rivots on the closeup with the pilot? Man, those have got to go.

Yes. Those are for tests. Even the YF-22 had some when it was tested like, accelerometers and that big pointy probe like thing on the nose. Still a far cry from just being a modified flanker. It is a whole new beast. Sukhoi delivered big time.

The YF-22 didn't have all those rivots...

Actually, the YF-22 did have all those rivets.

The F-22 reduced the "use of welding means that involved the use of more traditional fasteners such as screws and rivets by as much as 3/4".

F-22 vs YF-22 Structure and Engines


Edit:

I don't see heat signature reduction anywhere. As for what India wants, a 5th generation strike fighter, I think it will be one of the best out there. Supercruise is obvious with this design, LO technology, internal weapons bay, TVC engines, huge AESA radar, modern OLS, maybe some L-band wingtip radar, and a huge combat radius. Everything India could want, not exactly what Russia needs.

Give it a rest. Compressor replacements, to make the exhaust come out like the air coming in, were the last upgrade the F-22 underwent. That will come, with time.


The YF-22 also had sensors / air booms that would not be on the production vehicle.

p2prada is right, the F-22 changed much that was not on the YF-22. Once future tests commence....they will hide those rivets.

I found these useful images on defenceindustrydaily.com:

 

[Rage]

Not in those pictures.


But you can here.

The reason why the rivets in your pics are not self-evident is because Skunk Works, the contractor for the titanium frames and composite parts, used a technique called 'Stereo-lithography' in conjunction with digital techniques to manufacture tools that would conform to the surface shapes of particular parts of the aircraft: effectively permitting holes to be drilled perpendicular to curved surfaces, that would in turn, allow rivet heads to be flush with the surface. See the following for example:

"Digital techniques are being applied to the manufacturing of composite parts for the demonstrator aircraft as well. Skunk Works is using laser projection systems for building up the more complex composite parts, like the inlet duct for the lift fan. The projections are derived from computer-based design files. The process is more efficient, and it reduces scrap. "We have scrapped only two composite parts out of dozens," says Pyles. "That is significant improvement over past programs." Even the prototype tools used to build the demonstrators are benefiting from digital techniques. Computer-based design is being combined with stereo-lithography to create hundreds of drill positioning tools. (Stereolithography is a process for producing complex three-dimensional shapes from a plastic resin.) These tools conform to the surface shape of a particular portion of the aircraft. They allow holes to be drilled perpendicular on curved surfaces so the rivet heads are flush with the surface. Historically, these tools would have to be fabricated individually from metal by hand.

"Many of these techniques have been a standard practice in our industry for the last ten years or so," says Ervin. "We used a lot of them on the YF-22 program."


http://www.codeonemagazine.org/archives/1999/articles/jul_99/jul_p.html

 

[tharikiran]

Russians didn't have access to Americans radar predicting software

The Americans developed the software based on the laws formulated by Petr Ufimtsev who was a Russian. We all know that part.

To assume that the Russians don't know how to use those laws would be stupid once the secret was out.

And I don't understand this crap talk about rivets.The F22 has it , so has every other plane.
We all have seen the images over the last 2 days. Using laser to cut and for machining is old stuff.
Everyone uses it. No big deal.From ship building to cutting carbon fiber sheets, its used everywhere.

 

[RPK]

domain-b.com : The 'Raptorski' creates its ripples of envy


The 'Raptorski' creates its ripples of envy news

Rajiv Singh
30 January 2010

Moscow: The successful debut test flight of the Russian Sukhoi-designed fifth-generation fighter jet in the Russian Far East on Friday is already creating ripples, including those of the envious kind. The fighter prototype, designated the PAK-FA T-50, is meant to be Russia's answer to the American Lockheed constructed F-22 Raptor.


Sukhoi's T-50 fighter taking off for its test flight
Indeed, Western military sources, for long, have referred to it as the 'Raptorski.'

The 47-minute flight carried out by Sergei Bogdan, one of Russia's best test pilots, marks the launch of a five year long project that will see two versions of the aircraft being developed. In accordance with the operational doctrines of both air forces, a single-seat version will be developed for the Russian Air Force and a two-seat version for the Indian Air Force.

While induction of the single-seat version for the Russian Air Force is slated for 2015, the twin-seat version for the IAF will likely be ready only two years later.

The two-seat version is being worked upon by Indian aerospace engineers from the country's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). India and Russia have agreed to co-develop the fighter and share the estimated development costs of $8-10 billion equally. Both nations will also place similar quantum of orders for the production version of the aircraft – approximately 250 aircraft each.

The Indians are also entrusted with a 25 per cent share of the design and development work.

The Indian version of this advanced stealth fighter is designated the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Following Friday's successful test, Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin has said that initial induction of the aircraft with the Russian Air Force must begin in 2013, even though mass production is slated only for 2015.

Speaking to Russian TV from an airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur where the company's KnAPPO production facility is located, Sukhoi's director general, Mikhail Pogosian said, "I think this is a new stage in the development of the military aircraft industry in our country, and I believe that this is a very good start of a big work we have yet to do."

According to Sukhoi, the T-50 will display "intellectual" capabilities allowing it to fly at any time of the day and in any weather conditions. The aircraft will be capable of simultaneously attacking multiple targets in air, on the ground and in the sea. The plane is also touted to have a very high degree of manoeuvrability and a very short take-off and landing capability.

"It will also be less recognizable for radars thanks to many innovations, the use of composite materials and a special coating on the surface of the plane," Suhkoi officials informed the media. They said that the T-50 would now allow them to catch up with the Americans, who developed advanced stealth technologies much before.

Predictably, the test flight has drawn a certain amount of scorn from some military observers.

They point out that the new prototype doesn't have new engines or electronics and hence cannot qualify to be called a fifth generation fighter, for it is components such as these that allow it to be placed in another generation. They said that the prototype was only a souped up model of the existing Su-27 platform and have characterised the test flight as a ''bluff.''

Not so far back in time, when the Su-27 platform, with its thrust vectoring engines and advanced aeronautic capabilities, was making its first entry into the world of military aviation similar scorn was heaped upon it. It was denied that the aircraft would succeed in displaying the kind of capabilities that the Russians claimed it would.

As Russian experts point out even the Su-27 made its first appearance borrowing engines from earlier models.

Strangely, the Western air forces now consider it a privilege to be able to take on its advanced variants, such as the Indian Su-30MKI, in air-to-air exercises.

For India, the Russo-Indian FGFA will mark a quantum jump in technology development for it will be the first time they will be involved in developing fifth generation technologies as full-fledged partners.

Both countries are set to sign commercial contracts and set up a joint venture company to build the aircraft. The BrahMos joint venture model is being kept in mind for this project as well, for it is indeed a successful example of joint venture cooperation

As for mutual understandings arrived at so far with regard to the project, India will supply the plane's navigation systems, mission computer, cockpit display, and also provide composites for the airframe.

Sukhoi chief is also confident about the cost-effectiveness of the fighter in comparison to its American counterparts –the F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II.

''The joint Russian-Indian aircraft will not only strengthen the defence might of the Russian and Indian air forces, but will take a worthy place in the world market,'' said Pogosyan.

According to Sukhoi, the FGFA will have a radar cross section (RCS) that will be 40 times less than that of the Su-30MKI. While the Su-30MKI has an RCS of about 20 square metres, the FGFA will display an RCS of 0.5 square metres, making it almost invisible to enemy radar.

Its ''intellectual'' capability will lie in data fusion, with a wide variety of inputs being electronically combined and displayed to pilots in an easy-to-read form. Data inputs will come from the fighter's infrared, radar, and visual sensors.

 

[gb009]

Ufimtsev bolted to the US after the fall of the USSR. The Russians never did anything with his work except brag they are the inventors of stealth. If they had, they would have done a better job designing PAK FA.



The F-22 skin doesn't have it. It uses fasteners, pins and clips like all modern aircraft. The Russians are still stuck in Soviet production technique.

"F-22 skin doesn't have it". For the sake of argument agreed. But as has already been shown in the previous post(by Rage) it does/did at some point of time. But you still keep arguing .
This is just the 1st prototype of PAK FA, so give it a break.

Regarding the pictures you have posted : They are a bit grainy and not closeup shots (of-course that would be hard to do while flying), not as clear as the one posted by Rage. It would be hard to spot rivets on a plane from such a distance. Google and you will be able to find pictures of Su 30 at a similar distance "without rivets".

As per wiki .. "A fastener is a hardware device that mechanically joins or affixes two or more objects together" and "A rivet is a permanent mechanical fastener."
So F 22 uses fasteners and PAK FA uses rivets (which is a type of fastener) .So now the Americans are also stuck in Soviet production technique. . Please mention if they are a different type of fasteners and how they are better than rivets. Else that statement carries no weight.

 

[kuku]

I'm looking at the tail, and it has canted fins. YF-22 and YF-23 have canted fins too. No it is not smooth enough for me, it is so pocked full of rivets it looks like a bad case of acne compared to Rafale.

oh! child.

Look at the size of YF-23s ans 22s butterfly fins, and then the size of this T-50s fins, they are smaller due to its useage of 3d vectoring, that reduces its radar signature, got it?

Rafale has equal amount of rivets.
http://www.nellis.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/080708-F-8732E-005.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Rafale_LukeAFB.jpg
http://www.amv83.fr/Sigaero/Photos/Walkaround/Rafale/DSCN4515.JPG

Eurofighter
http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar...mages/eurofighter_typhoon_t_lfsr_12_of_17.jpg

Look for production line photos rafale will have equal number of countersunk rivets and screws, its how a plane is made.

F-35



If you look closely the skin over the rivets and screwed skin is applied after production.

Your full of BS

 

[tharikiran]

F-22
http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/michael_block/f-22a_raptor/images/f-22a_raptor_54_of_81.jpg

F-16
http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/don_busack/f-16c-1/images/f-16c-1_34_of_42.jpg

F-15
http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/don_busack/f-15e/images/f-15e_04_of_26.jpg

Mirage
http://data.primeportal.net/hangar/louis_chang/mirage_2000-5/mirage_2000-5_22_of_59.jpg

F-14
http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/howard_mason2/f-14d/images/f-14d_096_of_103.jpg

Eurofighter Typhoon
http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar...mages/eurofighter_typhoon_t_lfsr_12_of_17.jpg

Gripen
http://i38.tinypic.com/13zzatz.jpg

Rafale
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/aeromil-yf/rafale_detail_DSC_0006.jpg
http://www.amv83.fr/Sigaero/Photos/Walkaround/Rafale/DSCN4515.JPG
[Notice the wedges for stealth]

Point is every damn plane has it. Zoom the images and check for yourself.
To assume the Russians can't do a better job of it is being dumb.

 

[tharikiran]

Rafale is flush, Russian fighters are not. There is no BS about that.

Yes, it's not BS. It's the height of BS.Even after showing you clean and clear cut images. You continue with your unjustified/baseless argument.

The F 22
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/F-22_cockpit_close-up.jpg

Check to the right side of image.
Check the part behind the Pilot seat.

 

[bengalraider]

One thing i find interesting is just how unfinished the plane looks ; just compare the first pictures of the PAKFA to the first pics of the YF-23 or the YF-22;the point being that the american had tested and readied both their superfighters for long before presenting them to the public the Russians evidently did not probably due to media and public pressure to put the plane on display;I believe this is simply one flying prototype put out for public display , while behind the scenes Sukhoi magicians are working tirelessly to perfect the design on a second plane that is pretty much the same thing only much more refined.i.e this plane is just a trailer the real picture is still being worked on

 

[SATISH]

^^^^
Perhaps that is what the Sukhoi banner means.

 

[RPK]

2 PROTOTYPEs ??????

 

[marcos98]

possible weapons bay........

 

[marcos98]

This is the latest speculation........goin on in paralay.....
Which i think is pretty possible tooo

 

[RPK]

Wallpaper...............

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

domain-b.com : The 'Raptorski' creates its ripples of envy


The 'Raptorski' creates its ripples of envy news

Rajiv Singh
30 January 2010

Moscow: The successful debut test flight of the Russian Sukhoi-designed fifth-generation fighter jet in the Russian Far East on Friday is already creating ripples, including those of the envious kind. The fighter prototype, designated the PAK-FA T-50, is meant to be Russia's answer to the American Lockheed constructed F-22 Raptor.


Sukhoi's T-50 fighter taking off for its test flight
Indeed, Western military sources, for long, have referred to it as the 'Raptorski.'

The 47-minute flight carried out by Sergei Bogdan, one of Russia's best test pilots, marks the launch of a five year long project that will see two versions of the aircraft being developed. In accordance with the operational doctrines of both air forces, a single-seat version will be developed for the Russian Air Force and a two-seat version for the Indian Air Force.

While induction of the single-seat version for the Russian Air Force is slated for 2015, the twin-seat version for the IAF will likely be ready only two years later.

The two-seat version is being worked upon by Indian aerospace engineers from the country's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). India and Russia have agreed to co-develop the fighter and share the estimated development costs of $8-10 billion equally. Both nations will also place similar quantum of orders for the production version of the aircraft – approximately 250 aircraft each.

The Indians are also entrusted with a 25 per cent share of the design and development work.

The Indian version of this advanced stealth fighter is designated the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Following Friday's successful test, Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin has said that initial induction of the aircraft with the Russian Air Force must begin in 2013, even though mass production is slated only for 2015.

Speaking to Russian TV from an airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur where the company's KnAPPO production facility is located, Sukhoi's director general, Mikhail Pogosian said, "I think this is a new stage in the development of the military aircraft industry in our country, and I believe that this is a very good start of a big work we have yet to do."

According to Sukhoi, the T-50 will display "intellectual" capabilities allowing it to fly at any time of the day and in any weather conditions. The aircraft will be capable of simultaneously attacking multiple targets in air, on the ground and in the sea. The plane is also touted to have a very high degree of manoeuvrability and a very short take-off and landing capability.

"It will also be less recognizable for radars thanks to many innovations, the use of composite materials and a special coating on the surface of the plane," Suhkoi officials informed the media. They said that the T-50 would now allow them to catch up with the Americans, who developed advanced stealth technologies much before.

Predictably, the test flight has drawn a certain amount of scorn from some military observers.

They point out that the new prototype doesn't have new engines or electronics and hence cannot qualify to be called a fifth generation fighter, for it is components such as these that allow it to be placed in another generation. They said that the prototype was only a souped up model of the existing Su-27 platform and have characterised the test flight as a ''bluff.''

Not so far back in time, when the Su-27 platform, with its thrust vectoring engines and advanced aeronautic capabilities, was making its first entry into the world of military aviation similar scorn was heaped upon it. It was denied that the aircraft would succeed in displaying the kind of capabilities that the Russians claimed it would.

As Russian experts point out even the Su-27 made its first appearance borrowing engines from earlier models.

Strangely, the Western air forces now consider it a privilege to be able to take on its advanced variants, such as the Indian Su-30MKI, in air-to-air exercises.

For India, the Russo-Indian FGFA will mark a quantum jump in technology development for it will be the first time they will be involved in developing fifth generation technologies as full-fledged partners.

Both countries are set to sign commercial contracts and set up a joint venture company to build the aircraft. The BrahMos joint venture model is being kept in mind for this project as well, for it is indeed a successful example of joint venture cooperation

As for mutual understandings arrived at so far with regard to the project, India will supply the plane's navigation systems, mission computer, cockpit display, and also provide composites for the airframe.

Sukhoi chief is also confident about the cost-effectiveness of the fighter in comparison to its American counterparts –the F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II.

''The joint Russian-Indian aircraft will not only strengthen the defence might of the Russian and Indian air forces, but will take a worthy place in the world market,'' said Pogosyan.

According to Sukhoi, the FGFA will have a radar cross section (RCS) that will be 40 times less than that of the Su-30MKI. While the Su-30MKI has an RCS of about 20 square metres, the FGFA will display an RCS of 0.5 square metres, making it almost invisible to enemy radar.

Its ''intellectual'' capability will lie in data fusion, with a wide variety of inputs being electronically combined and displayed to pilots in an easy-to-read form. Data inputs will come from the fighter's infrared, radar, and visual sensors.

It is the 2nd occasion wherein an Indian news source has claimed PakFa RCS as 0.5 m2 when there is absolutely no revelation from Sukhoi bureau about its actual RCS.

For how long will they continue posting such B.S without any logic? How can one call a fighter which has 0.5 m2 RCS be FGFA?

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

2 PROTOTYPEs ??????

I dont find anything different

 

[marcos98]

Kicka$$ pic of pakfa.........

 

[marcos98]

YELLOW LINE CLEARLY IS boom refueling PROBE, cool!

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

Kicka$$ pic of pakfa.........

haha. We are literally translating paralay forums pak fa discussions from russian to english . The guy who actually photoshopped this would be wondering "how the hell did it reach this forum so fast?"