Sukhoi PAK FA

[notinlove]

It's just a prototype lacking new engines and a new radar," military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer told the Associated Press news agency.
'

Pavel Felgenhauer also announced that iraq will kick allied ass

Pavel Felgenhauer also announced that russia is going to get its ass handed to them during the war with georgia.....

to be honest i am rather glad that Pavel Felgenhauer has criticised this plane ...now m pretty sure its gonna turn out to be one of the best

 

[Singh]

I'm not an expert on fighter jets, however even my untrained eye noticed a few problems with the Russian stealth fighter.

1) Framed cockpit. The metal frame that runs across the middle of the pilot's glass cockpit will reflect radar energy. That is not stealthy.

2) Lack of sawtooth edges. "Sawtooth edges on cockpit edges, landing gear doors and other openings also break up radar." See http://science.howstuffworks.com/f-22-raptor3.htm

3) Air intakes are not canted. From the side, an enemy fighter that shines its radar at the Pak Fa will get a nice radar reflection. On the F-22 Raptor, the air intakes are angled downward. An approaching enemy fighter's radar waves are reflected downward towards the ground and away from the enemy fighter's radar detectors.

4) The rear of the Pak Fa looks huge (i.e. has a huge cross-section). Compare images of the Pak Fa's tail section (including engines) to the flat and small cross-section of the F-22. I don't think the Pak Fa is stealthy from the rear. If an enemy fighter points its radar at the Pak Fa from the rear, the radar signature will be large.

Bottom line: I give the Russians a grade of "B" for a good effort. However, the aforementioned four and possibly more problems will prevent the Russian Pak Fa from seriously approaching F-22 stealthiness.

1. They need a new canopy definitely.
2. Yes those doors opening will light up. THey need jagged edges to deflect radiation
3. http://f.imagehost.org/0592/pak-well.jpg -> give this some time I think the Sukhoi guys are upto something.
4. Rear aspect is usually less stealthy when compared to front. Could be Sukhoi is giving it top front bottom stealth only ? It will be able to outrun maneuvrable AAMs and outmaneuvre less maneuvrable AAMs ?



---

How the hell does IAF expect to get a twin seater jet out of this ? Using this Air Sup craft as an A2G ? Its beyond me.
We have MKIs which can be used as bombtrucks and some 400 other crafts like Jags and 27s which can haul bombs and not to forget the 126+74 MMRCA are all potent A2G platforms. USe this baby to rule the skies. Please.

 

[mattster]

1. They need a new canopy definitely.
2. Yes those doors opening will light up. THey need jagged edges to deflect radiation
3. http://f.imagehost.org/0592/pak-well.jpg -> give this some time I think the Sukhoi guys are upto something.
4. Rear aspect is usually less stealthy when compared to front. Could be Sukhoi is giving it top front bottom stealth only ? It will be able to outrun maneuvrable AAMs and outmaneuvre less maneuvrable AAMs ?



---

How the hell does IAF expect to get a twin seater jet out of this ? Using this Air Sup craft as an A2G ? Its beyond me.
We have MKIs which can be used as bombtrucks and some 400 other crafts like Jags and 27s which can haul bombs and not to forget the 126+74 MMRCA are all potent A2G platforms. USe this baby to rule the skies. Please.

Singh...your point about the twin seater is so true.....it made me laugh !! looking at the frame, there is no way to get a twin seater unless the nose design is significantly altered.
The whole point of having a 5th generation fighter is to have a plane with such sophisticated avionics that the pilot workload is significantly reduced.
I dont understand why the IAF guys want a navigator.

As for the glass canopy.....it looks like no other company in the world other than Lockheed Martin know how to mold one strong clean sheet of glass.
Even the French or Germans cant seem to do it. If they could why wouldnt they, instead of what they have on the Rafale and EF.

Its mind-boggling to me that no one can do that. I am hoping that someone with aeronautics experience can explain to me why this is so difficult.
Does it have something to do with the ejection seat ??

 

[StealthSniper]

I agree Singh the PAKFA should just be an air dominance fighter. We already have alot of systems that we can use for bomb trucks and we should use the PAKFA where it will do it's best and give the enemy less chance to beat it. The more I think about it the more I think that we are wasting money and resources trying to make the PAKFA something else. We will get the PAKFA faster and save money if we just use the PAKFA and maybe change the internals of the aircraft for Indian standards.

 

[tharikiran]

I am surprised at the number of comments regarding jagged edges. Take any photo of F22, F117E and we can notice them.
Don't you guys think the Russians are aware of it and if they need it or not on this plane.
I don't think machining jagged edges is a big deal either.

Regarding full canopy even the YF-23 didn't have it. It was stealthier than F22. Wasn't it ?
http://www.kaliteliresimler.com/data/media/791/YF-23_Black_Widow_II_3.jpg

PAK FA canopy-
http://www.kommersant.ru/dark-gallery.aspx?id=1313623&picsid=415336&stpid=65

 

[kuku]

Excuse me, only 6% modern

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/09/23/six/

Rafale has more advanced composite skins than PAKFA.

In a clean config it is stealthier too.

Delays happen, but Russian delays turn 8 year projects into 20. Thanks to India they can cut down the financial setbacks. Now all that is dealt with is technical.

That is the 117S, not PAKFAs final engine.

I don't cater to the technical audience. My experience is more industrial and field.

Let's see, shares canted tail fins, clipped delta wings, boxed intakes, biased nose, similar leading edges... everything they could figure out how to copy they did. To change anything else would have compromised the flight characteristics using the Flanker as a base model.

And I will keep on about it so get used to it

No its not reducing the front-sector RCS is not the same as designing it to be minimal, the T-50 has signature management in mind, look at the designs: chines, edge alignment, air intake alignments, The spray on/pain on stealth (RAM) is not applied right now, the Russians have been working on them from the 80s, along with every nation with a small aviation industry, they have also applied signature management solutions inside the radome before (now with a AESA radar in the radome), and these developments are a generation old.

Composites dont reduce radar cross section by being composites.

Softwares to get the RCS models right are not outside of the Russians tech, neither are test rigs, they have their own generation of fly by wire technology. Calling this a copy is like calling every European UCAV program that will happen a copy of the B-2.

The biggest challenge facing Sukhoi is cost management, to keep the program cost and development cost to the minimal possible levels, (cutting costs in manufacturing tech applied, materials, related avionics and weapons development), however the primary design issue here would be keeping the signature far lower than the current generation of planes.

What you see as the flanker model, is a design lineage which is based around maneuverability and provided them with a larger internal weapons bay and fuel storage capacity.

There is no way a rafale would find this on its radar before it can see the rafale through its radar, however with passive electronic intelligence gathering the rafale might see it at longer ranges, the French systems are known to be more advanced than the Russian ones.

 

[ltygo]

i am chinese and congratulations

PAK AF looks very advanced

 

[fulcrum]

Damn missed the good news! Tonight's party in my place!

That is the 117S, not PAKFAs final engine.

What the..? The link clearly says the engine is "designed for fifth gen fighter". In case you aren't aware, 117s was developed for Su-35BM, not the PAK-FA, and 117s entered production version way back in 2007-08. It's most probably a new 117.

-----

Edit: The plane is incredibly flat, good looking too. Bays under the wings? Also the entire rudder moves to compensate for less tail area to reduce radar reflections..? cool.

 

[gb009]

AL 41F was the engine being developed for PAK FA (atleast on wikipedia until recently) or may be it was the AL-41F1A. I dont remember..
Now it has been changed to : 2× New unnamed engine by NPO Saturn of 17.5 KN each (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_PAK_FA)


Ok now i am confused:
I visited the wiki links for both AL 41F & 117S
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_AL-41
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_AL-31#External_links

Says that AL 41F is designed for supercruise, nothing like that for 117S.
It also says this "A heavily-upgraded version of the Al-31F is being developed for the Su-35BM prototype and possibly to power the early flights of PAK-FA. This engine has been named the AL-41F1A" which is the 117S.

So does 117S engines have supercruise? And which is the one being developed for PAF FA?

 

[F-14]

Hi people missed me

 

[fulcrum]

AL 41F was the engine being developed for PAK FA (atleast on wikipedia until recently) or may be it was the AL-41F1A. I dont remember..
Now it has been changed to : 2× New unnamed engine by NPO Saturn of 17.5 KN each (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_PAK_FA)


Ok now i am confused:
I visited the wiki links for both AL 41F & 117S
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_AL-41
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_...External_links

Says that AL 41F is designed for supercruise, nothing like that for 117S.
It also says this "A heavily-upgraded version of the Al-31F is being developed for the Su-35BM prototype and possibly to power the early flights of PAK-FA. This engine has been named the AL-41F1A" which is the 117S.

So does 117S engines have supercruise? And which is the one being developed for PAF FA?

There are a lot of engines!

Salyut:
1: AL-31FM1 with 13.5t for Su-27SM, Su-33 & Su-34
2: AL-31FM2 with 14.2t
3: AL-31FM3-1 with 14.5t(normal after burner) & 15.3t(emergency thrust)
4: AL-31FM3-2 with 15t
5: Engine for PAK-FA with 16-17t of thrust.

Saturn:
1: AL-31F with 12.5t (thrust) for Su-27(MKI is AL-31FP with the same thrust)
2: 117C/ AL-41F-1A (117S) with 14.5t for Su-35BM
3: AL-41F with 14t+(normal after burner) 18t+(emergency thrust) (for the canceled MIG 1.44)
4: New 117 engine flight tested recently whose thrust is said to be higher.
5: Other speculation is the engine tested on PAK-FA prototype is not at all based on the 117.
6: AL-41F is supposed to be the final engine for PAK-FA with the thrust reaching 18t. Although I think an Engine with 16-17t will be more than enough. If current specs are accurate then PAK-FA is lighter than F-22.

I so wish if MKI had gone for Salyut with 13.5 tonnes thrust. 12.5 is so inadequate. But I guess you won't get thrust vectoring in Salyut.
EDIT: PS: Don't confuse the 3 AL-41 engines.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

1. They need a new canopy definitely.
2. Yes those doors opening will light up. THey need jagged edges to deflect radiation
3. http://f.imagehost.org/0592/pak-well.jpg -> give this some time I think the Sukhoi guys are upto something.
4. Rear aspect is usually less stealthy when compared to front. Could be Sukhoi is giving it top front bottom stealth only ? It will be able to outrun maneuvrable AAMs and outmaneuvre less maneuvrable AAMs ?



---

How the hell does IAF expect to get a twin seater jet out of this ? Using this Air Sup craft as an A2G ? Its beyond me.
We have MKIs which can be used as bombtrucks and some 400 other crafts like Jags and 27s which can haul bombs and not to forget the 126+74 MMRCA are all potent A2G platforms. USe this baby to rule the skies. Please.

I have been asking this question for a long time now. Why is IAF obsessed with twin seater fighters? Ans: They want to make every damn fighter multi-role. Apart from air dominance they want to make Pak fa a stealth bomber too.

But on the other hand, Sukhoi's design engineers would not have agreed to Indian demands of 2 seater fighter if they did not think it was viable. If I am right the 1st prototype of FGFA will fly within a year.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

many of these things people are claiming to be unstealthy may have only been placed temporarily for this maiden flight all these non stealthy features will be changed in the final model, this is only the maiden flight they are concerned with many other things than these issues.

 

[kuku]

many of these things people are claiming to be unstealthy may have only been placed temporarily for this maiden flight all these non stealthy features will be changed in the final model, this is only the maiden flight they are concerned with many other things than these issues.

Dont concentrate on things most people say about things that are reducing its' stealthy, some posts back i read a persons post about smoothness, rivets and what not, could not stop laughing, as if the developers are supposed to weld it together and then break the welding every-time someone has to perform regular maintenance.

 

[Yusuf]

anyone else thinks that the canopy has a very uncanny resemblance to the LCA? The tails are pretty widely spaced. Very slender fuselage. must say its a pretty awkward design unlike the flankers which are majestic.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I see the canopy of PAK-FA looking more like of F-22s and F-35s.

 

[kuku]

Chinese don't have a PAK FA, they have an upgraded J-10 which is their attempt to copy the Lavi. PAK FA is an attempt to make a 5th gen based on the only examples they have to look at, YF-22 and YF-23. PAK FA does have moveable tails... they are called canted fins and they are based on the YF-23 design. Appearances slightly differ since Russians didn't have access to Americans radar predicting software nor the production techniques to get better LO attributes. The attempt to copy YF-22 and YF-23 attributes are clearly seen in the model as has been discussed already in this thread.

Look at the damn tail, its a all moving surface because they want to reduce size and use Thrust vectoring to compensate.

Radar waves work by laws of physics, what do ya mean by not having access to american radar cross section software.

Still not smooth enough for you, lol.

 

[fulcrum]

PAK FA is flying on 117S. It was tested to make sure there were no problems on the Su-27M first so as not to encounter any problems on PAKFA's first flight. It was done as a precaution so as not to repeat the crash of the Su-35BM testbed last year. 117S didn't enter serial production until after MAKS 2009. PAK FA's final engine has yet to enter competition bids.

Do you have any link to say that it is 117s? If it entered serial production in 2009 according to you, are the russians idiots to again test it? Anyway I'm looking for the link.
The engine used on the protoype is not 117s.
"The PAK FA was expected use a pair of Saturn 117S engines on its first flights. The 117S (AL-41F1A) is a major upgrade of the AL-31F based on the AL-41F intended to power the Su-35BM, producing 142 kN (32,000 lb) of thrust in afterburner and 86.3 kN (19,400 lb) dry. In fact, PAK FA already used a completely new engine in its first flight, as stated by NPO Saturn.[35] The engine is not based on the Saturn 117S. The engine generates a larger thrust and a complex automation system, to facilitate flight modes such as maneuverability. Exact specifications of the new engine are still secret.[36]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_PAK_FA

"Moscow, Jan 29 - RIA of the news. The fighter of the fifth generation T -50 (PACK [FA] - the promising aviation complex of front aviation) completed on Friday the first flight on the completely new engine, which has analogs either in Russia or in the world, reported RIA of the news the managing director OF [NPO] “Saturn”, the director of programs for THE PACK [FA] of the united engine-building corporation ([ODK]) Ilya Fedorov.

Aircraft conducted in air 47 minutes and completed landing on the takeoff and landing strip of factory airfield in Komsomol'sk-na-Amur. It piloted the deserved test pilot RF Sergey Bogdan.

“These are the newest engine, but not [usovershenstvovannyy] analog of power plant for Su-35, as they wrote some media outlets and spoke some “specialists”. It satisfies all requirements, which were produced for us by company “dry”, said Fedorov.

In comparison with the engine for Su-35, it distinguish the increased thrusts, the complex system of automation, which placed into the aircraft new qualities, including super-maneuverability, noted Fedorov, after emphasizing that more detailed characteristics he now open cannot."
http://in.babelfish.yahoo.com/trans...29/206858518.html&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

PAK FA is an attempt to make a 5th gen based on the only examples they have to look at, YF-22 and YF-23. PAK FA does have moveable tails... they are called canted fins and they are based on the YF-23 design. Appearances slightly differ since Russians didn't have access to Americans radar predicting software nor the production techniques to get better LO attributes. The attempt to copy YF-22 and YF-23 attributes are clearly seen in the model as has been discussed already in this thread.

lol.. the laws of physics don't work differently in Russia. What they took is the logical step forward to achieve stealth. For all the bravado, lets see how france "copies american designs" in it's own fifth gen fighters.
And besides, it was the lockheed martin which took the idea from Russians and began stealth development starting from F-117 in the first place.

 

[sandeepdg]

I congratulate the Russians for the maiden test flight of PAK-FA, it brings us a bit closer to our dream of having a fifth gen. fighter in IAF in the coming decade !!

 

[Rage]

Is PAK FA missing its AESA?

The PAK FA is also equipped with an advanced phased-array antenna radar, it adds. Russia's Tikhomirov NIIP displayed an active electronically scanned array design for the fighter at last year's Moscow MAKS air show.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/01/29/337795/pictures.html

'

The first testbed did indeed fly without Tikhomirov's AESA radar, but future prototypes will almost certainly feature the Iztok, Fryazino-designed AESA, expected to be an improvement upon the IRBIS-E . The reason being: that the antenna entered benchtesting in November 2008, and was only integrated with the radar's other building blocks for an 'initial integrations test' in May, 2009. The second sample, which will be produced for the T-50's second test bed, will become available by May, 2010.

As for the engine, sources speculate that Russia's initial batch of aircraft will be powered by the NPO Saturn 117 engines, but later production examples will incorporate an engine proposed by MPP Salut / NPO Saturn or a joint combine thereof, and based on the AL-31FM3, the starkly modernized version of the AL-31F, with high thrust performance (speculated at 17.5 tons of thrust as opposed to the 14.5 tons of the Saturn 117S) and which wikipedia and others indicate as a "possible alternative to the 117S for the Sukhoi T-50, after the development of the AL-41F has been discontinued").

Apropos of radar and detection technologies, The PAK FA also incorporates the existing OLS-35(M?) QWIP (the spherical dome afore the canopy), developed for the Su-35BM, credited with the ability to detect a ‘fighter type’ target head on from 27 nautical miles, and from behind at around 50 nautical miles, through a 90° azimuth- a game-changer within visual range environments. Russia also has tonnes of experience integrating infrared sensors onto its systems, and at least one source: Aus Airpower, speculates that 'QWIPs could well become the primary sensor and radar the secondary'.