Sukhoi PAK FA

ZOOM

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There is no denying to fact that Chinese will certainly going to be much more beneficial from this project as compared to India, since they will do whatever they can to purchase Russian engineers as well as related blue prints to speed up their own JXX project.
 

ppgj

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I have been asking this question for a long time now. Why is IAF obsessed with twin seater fighters?
Q, it is a justified obsession.:D look at the range of PAKFA (5500km!!!) and even our SU 30MKI (about 3200km!!). now a single pilot besides piloting can't take care of the rest in terms of tracking the bandits, aiming, using ECM etc... without fatigue!! it is normal and justified to have 2 in the cockpit to do things efficiently and effectively in a long range fighter. india's experience with 2 pilots in the MKI's have been good. hope that answers your question.

Ans: They want to make every damn fighter multi-role. Apart from air dominance they want to make Pak fa a stealth bomber too.
the main aim of any 5th gen fighter is to clear the enemy airspace so that SEAD missions can be carried forward by the bombers or strike a/c's. hence AIR DOMINANCE becomes the main aim. that does not mean they can't strike the ground.

But on the other hand, Sukhoi's design engineers would not have agreed to Indian demands of 2 seater fighter if they did not think it was viable. If I am right the 1st prototype of FGFA will fly within a year.
right. that is a non issue. it will happen but will take time. we can hope it a bit earlier if the news report of PAKFA being available in 2013. :D
 

ptldM3

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It is the 2nd occasion wherein an Indian news source has claimed PakFa RCS as 0.5 m2 when there is absolutely no revelation from Sukhoi bureau about its actual RCS.

For how long will they continue posting such B.S without any logic? How can one call a fighter which has 0.5 m2 RCS be FGFA?
This is what a formor Lockheed Martin employee that worked on the F-22 has to say about the Pakfa:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1525980&postcount=952


As far as i know the 0.5 RCS estimate was from a blogger who supposedly heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy, who worked at Sukhoi, that same blogger has been wrong before. As far a i know Sukhoi has said nothing about the true RCS. In the Russian news they said this:

"In the air it's almost impossible to acquire. If the SU-30, for instance, is seen on radar as a 4 to 5 meter metalic object the fifth genneration aircraft will be 40 times smaller."

The RCS of the SU-30 is 20 sq metres not 4 or 5 metres...thus if it is 40 times smaller than 4 to 5 metres than its RCS will be far less than 0.5.
 

StealthSniper

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Although function over form is what we need, I hope the 2 seater FGFA will at least look good and hopefully the canopy won't look weird and stuff.
 

neo29

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this fighter may not look as good as f22. but this is just test version. there may be more changes in looks. all that matters is its performance which may be better than f-22. some unconfirmed reports say initial test results are better that what yf-22 gave. these are speculative though since many more tests left.
i wonder if there is a naval version of pak fa in development. india and russia must look into it, this will prevent india from looking at the f-35 for its iac2 or iac3.
 

Daredevil

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Another side-by-side comparison of PAK-FA and F-22. The belly of F-22 from the side looks very awkward compared to lean belly of PAK-FA.

 

Dark_Prince

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Expect More Changes

Hi All,

Personally I think its just a prototype, we might see some minor but significant changes in the design with a good "Nose Job". Plus the yellow Paint represents the Metal parts and Blue represents the composite material, I believe the Nose has been deliberately kept in yellow, as what I have researched nose will not be Pointy But Flat similar to F-22.
:eek:
 

Singh

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PAk fa is huge, flanker heritage is clearly evident.
Being huge has its advantages
1. Greater internal fuel capacity
2. Greater weapon load
3. Space for more upgrades, avionics.
 

venkat

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ppgj! i am also unable to understand why IAF wants twin seater version FGFA!!!! Pilots are a rare breed and are in short supply!!! no doubt ,the idea of work load sharing is logical. Even in these days of massive automation, do we still need a navigator/weapon operator. it will be one mishap and two pilots life at stake!!!!!may be we should go in for a single seater!!! it will save development time and money!!!
 

Dark_Prince

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ppgj! i am also unable to understand why IAF wants twin seater version FGFA!!!! Pilots are a rare breed and are in short supply!!! no doubt ,the idea of work load sharing is logical. Even in these days of massive automation, do we still need a navigator/weapon operator. it will be one mishap and two pilots life at stake!!!!!may be we should go in for a single seater!!! it will save development time and money!!!
You have answered half the question yourself! India's requirement of a Stealth fighter is different from Russia, due to the requirement of mounting Multiple Coordinated Attacks with AWACS, Ground Forces and Navel Forces etc. According to me, our Requirement is for an Invading force rather than a defensive one (change in strategy) which may require Sharing of Work Load and dedicated tasks so that the efficiency in achieving the mission objective is high. In the end it does not matter what the cost is, what matters is what you have achieved. I hope you understand the Role of a Spotter with a Sniper!!
 
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kuku

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One thing i find interesting is just how unfinished the plane looks ; just compare the first pictures of the PAKFA to the first pics of the YF-23 or the YF-22;the point being that the american had tested and readied both their superfighters for long before presenting them to the public the Russians evidently did not probably due to media and public pressure to put the plane on display;I believe this is simply one flying prototype put out for public display , while behind the scenes Sukhoi magicians are working tirelessly to perfect the design on a second plane that is pretty much the same thing only much more refined.i.e this plane is just a trailer the real picture is still being worked on
If you remember the first pics of the Mig-29K released to the media, yes your assessment is true.
 

ppgj

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ppgj! i am also unable to understand why IAF wants twin seater version FGFA!!!! Pilots are a rare breed and are in short supply!!! no doubt ,the idea of work load sharing is logical. Even in these days of massive automation, do we still need a navigator/weapon operator.
venkat. your point is taken. but the fact of the matter is this arrangement far outweighs your point. besides taking care of the fatigue of both the men, it can be used for training purposes in peacetime. you also need to remember these long range fighters are meant for deep penetration where they will be facing multiple air assets and ground assets. the pilot needs not only to out maneur the enemy but take them out. the workload for a single person would be just too much to handle. if he can concentrate on piloting, the rest can be done by the weapons operator. there is a thought behind it. besides, no amount of automation can substitute the man behind it.

it will be one mishap and two pilots life at stake!!!!!may be we should go in for a single seater!!!
right. but what if many a single piloted fighters - unable to handle - get shot? you lose both men and machines!!

it will save development time and money!!!
on the contrary, a 2 seater version in peacetime saves time and money because of training advantage besides being efficient during real combat!!

A two-pilot crew provides higher work efficiency (thanks to distribution of the aircraft handling and armament control functions) as well as the engagement in close and long range combats and the air situation observation. Besides, the same dual control aircraft can be used as a combat and training aircraft. Additionally, the integrated air-borne equipment enables the aircraft to be used as an air command post to control the operation of other aircraft.

In practice, the front seater is the pilot and the back seater is the "Wizzo", the WSO (Weapons Systems Operator). The pilot flies the aircraft and handles air-to-air and some ATG weapons, as well as countermeasures. The WSO takes care of the detailed aspects of navigation, ground radar mapping & target designation, setting up delivery solution for ATG weapons, designating for guided bombs/missiles, ECM, and so on. There are many tasks which overlap; either pilot or WSO can do the job depending on circumstances. The aircraft can be flown from either seat, however only the front cockpit driver can operate the helmet mounted sight (Sura) as sensors are only in the front. The rear cockpit has a HUD repeater.
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html
 

Quickgun Murugan

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Q, it is a justified obsession.:D look at the range of PAKFA (5500km!!!) and even our SU 30MKI (about 3200km!!). now a single pilot besides piloting can't take care of the rest in terms of tracking the bandits, aiming, using ECM etc... without fatigue!! it is normal and justified to have 2 in the cockpit to do things efficiently and effectively in a long range fighter. india's experience with 2 pilots in the MKI's have been good. hope that answers your question.



the main aim of any 5th gen fighter is to clear the enemy airspace so that SEAD missions can be carried forward by the bombers or strike a/c's. hence AIR DOMINANCE becomes the main aim. that does not mean they can't strike the ground.



right. that is a non issue. it will happen but will take time. we can hope it a bit earlier if the news report of PAKFA being available in 2013. :D
All I am concerned about is, if single seater pak-fa has better stealth than twin seater, then I think we should go for the single seater than the twin one.
 

Quickgun Murugan

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This is what a formor Lockheed Martin employee that worked on the F-22 has to say about the Pakfa:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1525980&postcount=952


As far as i know the 0.5 RCS estimate was from a blogger who supposedly heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy, who worked at Sukhoi, that same blogger has been wrong before. As far a i know Sukhoi has said nothing about the true RCS. In the Russian news they said this:

"In the air it's almost impossible to acquire. If the SU-30, for instance, is seen on radar as a 4 to 5 meter metalic object the fifth genneration aircraft will be 40 times smaller."

The RCS of the SU-30 is 20 sq metres not 4 or 5 metres...thus if it is 40 times smaller than 4 to 5 metres than its RCS will be far less than 0.5.
I agree that RCS should be smaller than 0.5. But the explanation given for 4 to 5 meters can also be interpreted like this

4 m (width) X 5 m(length) = 20 sq m (area) object.

Ajai Shukla has said that Sukhoi has 20 sq m RCS and Pak Fa has 40 times lesser i.e. 0.5 sq m RCS. The point that worries me is, Ajai Shukla is no ordinary blogger. He is reputable.
 

Agantrope

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PAKFA incorporate many features that are used in the Berkut it seems. But 2-seater would be a killer master in Asia :D
 

notinlove

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I agree that RCS should be smaller than 0.5. But the explanation given for 4 to 5 meters can also be interpreted like this

4 m (width) X 5 m(length) = 20 sq m (area) object.

Ajai Shukla has said that Sukhoi has 20 sq m RCS and Pak Fa has 40 times lesser i.e. 0.5 sq m RCS. The point that worries me is, Ajai Shukla is no ordinary blogger. He is reputable.

Ajai shukla himself has said that he just heard it from somebody and he wont bet his life on it :)
 

notinlove

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here is IGOR's article regarding PAK FA .... i hope it answers several questions including cockpit, frameless canopy weapons bay and aft sector stealth.

The new 5th generation fighter prototype T-50-1 ('izdelie 701'), developed within the framework of the Indo-Russian PAKFA/FGFA program, has made its first flight at Jan. 29 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. It was 47 min on the air. Despite the wrap of secrecy, the look of the fighter appeared very close to that, previously described in the most reliable Russian publications. So, everybody can now compare what was said about the PAK FA specs before, and what exists actually.

Now it is clear, that in its airframe design the fighter is closer related to American F-23 prototype, than F-22 or JSF, but with bigger internal payload bay. However, it has unrepeatable impress of Sukhoi design house, clearly looking as a thoroughbred Su-linage. According to the most reliable estimations, T-50 has 10 internal and 2 additional external hardpoints on the wings (the 'mystery' triangle thickening under the wings). With this great payload capability and much space for the fuel T-50 can became a true military 'workhorse' of the future battlefield!

From relatively unexpected moments the controlled LCA-like LERX must be noted. It demonstrates the designers' assertiveness (if not hardball) in field of the super-maneuverability. With currently installed 14.5 t thrust 'izdelie 117' and futuristic 17,2 t thrust Al-41F engine the plane can take off from a 300-400 m horizontal airfield or even a highway. Also, the multiplicity of controlled aerodynamic surfaces, which make precision landing easier, is an indication about intention to use the plane in the future as a carrier-based platform . However, the capability of the aircraft to land on Vikramaditya-size carrier (40 kt) is not yet clear.

The nozzles was designed round, as expected, which provoked speculations about problem in IR and radar stealthness from rear hemisphere. However, the program chief has explained early, that IR and radar observability reduction was achieved not worse than on American 5th gen. fighters, but in different way. The 1st prototype has no TVSs but it's certainly formulated as a part of the program and already developed by 'Klimov'.

The triangle form of the wings is optimized for supersonic maneurability, and indirectly confirms the supercruise capability of the aircraft. On other hand the cross-section of the nose-cone is not so flattened, as was predicted according to flattened AESA form.

As Putin's deputy has officially declared, the prototype already has an installed data link which allows it the battlefield communication. According to him the new 5th gen. avionics, the 'electronic pilot', allow to pilot concentrate its efforts on the battle instead of the piloting. In addition: it has an advanced HOTAS type control. However, Russian PM Putin itself said after the fly, that the designers 'have much to work' on the fighter's weapon and engine. The program is described by the cabinet as the 'first priority military program', and its 100% financing will continue despite the world financial turmoil.

A somewhere disappointing is the old fashion look of the cockpit, but this can relatively easy be improved till entering serial production. The information about the tender for a frame-less cockpit is already published. However, the riveting is relatively smooth and minimalistic comparing to JSF for example. The additional bulk RCS reduction in different diapasons will be achieved by new Russian nano-structural coating technology.

The production is planned to be started till 2013. Then, according to the PM's publicly announced decision, the first batch of fighters has to come to the practice center in 2013, and in 2015 the fighters have to be on service.

The former Sukhoi's chief (now working with 'MiG' in UAC directorate) and the 'father' of PAK FA program Mikhail Pogosyan said after the flight, that the United Air-building Corporation (UAC) will follow to work with the Indian counterparts on this program and he is sure, that this product will catch the world market too.

I personally estimate the fighter (in single and two-sitter configuration) jointly produced in Russia and India can be exported to Russian and Indian friendly countries around the world. The list of the countries who can afford T-50, includes in the first place those, who already use Soviet/Russian fighters in AF and want generation upgrade. It could be Belorussia, Kazakhstan, Venezuela, Algeria, Malaysia, Libya and in some circumstances – Iran. The second line, if economically improved, the follow states could become T-50's customers too: Vietnam, Myanmar, Indonesia, Syria, Serbia and even Ukraine (if more realistic president will be elected). However, I think, China has zero chance to be allowed for T-50 import for obvious reasons.

Other problem is the unfair competition, sometimes accompanied by huge kickbacks. The natural competitors of Indo-Russian T-50 on the world market is JSF and the 4+ gen eurojets. If aggressive marketing of those planes succeeds, the prospects of PAK-FA/FGFA program may be worse for simple reason of fund devastation. I'm not sure, how this fact is reflected in political consciousness in two countries. Methinks both countries must concentrate maximum efforts on their most advanced fighter program instead supporting third part foreign competitors by massive purchases.

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/01/pak-fa-first-flight.html

please delete if already posted
 

Quickgun Murugan

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here is IGOR's article regarding PAK FA .... i hope it answers several questions including cockpit, frameless canopy weapons bay and aft sector stealth.

The new 5th generation fighter prototype T-50-1 ('izdelie 701'), developed within the framework of the Indo-Russian PAKFA/FGFA program, has made its first flight at Jan. 29 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. It was 47 min on the air. Despite the wrap of secrecy, the look of the fighter appeared very close to that, previously described in the most reliable Russian publications. So, everybody can now compare what was said about the PAK FA specs before, and what exists actually.

Now it is clear, that in its airframe design the fighter is closer related to American F-23 prototype, than F-22 or JSF, but with bigger internal payload bay. However, it has unrepeatable impress of Sukhoi design house, clearly looking as a thoroughbred Su-linage. According to the most reliable estimations, T-50 has 10 internal and 2 additional external hardpoints on the wings (the 'mystery' triangle thickening under the wings). With this great payload capability and much space for the fuel T-50 can became a true military 'workhorse' of the future battlefield!

From relatively unexpected moments the controlled LCA-like LERX must be noted. It demonstrates the designers' assertiveness (if not hardball) in field of the super-maneuverability. With currently installed 14.5 t thrust 'izdelie 117' and futuristic 17,2 t thrust Al-41F engine the plane can take off from a 300-400 m horizontal airfield or even a highway. Also, the multiplicity of controlled aerodynamic surfaces, which make precision landing easier, is an indication about intention to use the plane in the future as a carrier-based platform . However, the capability of the aircraft to land on Vikramaditya-size carrier (40 kt) is not yet clear.

The nozzles was designed round, as expected, which provoked speculations about problem in IR and radar stealthness from rear hemisphere. However, the program chief has explained early, that IR and radar observability reduction was achieved not worse than on American 5th gen. fighters, but in different way. The 1st prototype has no TVSs but it's certainly formulated as a part of the program and already developed by 'Klimov'.

The triangle form of the wings is optimized for supersonic maneurability, and indirectly confirms the supercruise capability of the aircraft. On other hand the cross-section of the nose-cone is not so flattened, as was predicted according to flattened AESA form.

As Putin's deputy has officially declared, the prototype already has an installed data link which allows it the battlefield communication. According to him the new 5th gen. avionics, the 'electronic pilot', allow to pilot concentrate its efforts on the battle instead of the piloting. In addition: it has an advanced HOTAS type control. However, Russian PM Putin itself said after the fly, that the designers 'have much to work' on the fighter's weapon and engine. The program is described by the cabinet as the 'first priority military program', and its 100% financing will continue despite the world financial turmoil.

A somewhere disappointing is the old fashion look of the cockpit, but this can relatively easy be improved till entering serial production. The information about the tender for a frame-less cockpit is already published. However, the riveting is relatively smooth and minimalistic comparing to JSF for example. The additional bulk RCS reduction in different diapasons will be achieved by new Russian nano-structural coating technology.

The production is planned to be started till 2013. Then, according to the PM's publicly announced decision, the first batch of fighters has to come to the practice center in 2013, and in 2015 the fighters have to be on service.

The former Sukhoi's chief (now working with 'MiG' in UAC directorate) and the 'father' of PAK FA program Mikhail Pogosyan said after the flight, that the United Air-building Corporation (UAC) will follow to work with the Indian counterparts on this program and he is sure, that this product will catch the world market too.

I personally estimate the fighter (in single and two-sitter configuration) jointly produced in Russia and India can be exported to Russian and Indian friendly countries around the world. The list of the countries who can afford T-50, includes in the first place those, who already use Soviet/Russian fighters in AF and want generation upgrade. It could be Belorussia, Kazakhstan, Venezuela, Algeria, Malaysia, Libya and in some circumstances – Iran. The second line, if economically improved, the follow states could become T-50's customers too: Vietnam, Myanmar, Indonesia, Syria, Serbia and even Ukraine (if more realistic president will be elected). However, I think, China has zero chance to be allowed for T-50 import for obvious reasons.

Other problem is the unfair competition, sometimes accompanied by huge kickbacks. The natural competitors of Indo-Russian T-50 on the world market is JSF and the 4+ gen eurojets. If aggressive marketing of those planes succeeds, the prospects of PAK-FA/FGFA program may be worse for simple reason of fund devastation. I'm not sure, how this fact is reflected in political consciousness in two countries. Methinks both countries must concentrate maximum efforts on their most advanced fighter program instead supporting third part foreign competitors by massive purchases.

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/01/pak-fa-first-flight.html

please delete if already posted
I don't understand. What better market than India for Pak-Fa? 500+ Fighters for India and Russia will itself take more than a decade to fulfill.
 

StealthSniper

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I don't understand. What better market than India for Pak-Fa? 500+ Fighters for India and Russia will itself take more than a decade to fulfill.

Yeah I think the PAKFA, FGFA will be okay if they make the required 500 aircraft. After they are made then maybe they can look at other export countries but I think that India and Russia will be okay if they buy the required amount.
 

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