Sukhoi PAK FA

[MiG-29SMT]

No, sorry you’re mislead....that’s impossible with the relatively small batch and the difficulty and cost associated with manufacturing 3 different AESA radars, new generation engines, weapons, data-link, ECM and airframe.

The SU-35 sold to China with engines and spares at around 83 million, it had just one PESA radar, imagine installing 3 AESA radars, new engines, weapons and so on. Sukhoi would go bankrupt.

There has been fools in the Russian government claiming all sorts of nonsense to clueless journalists for years like only 12 aircraft would be ordered and the SU-35 is equal to the SU-35 which was rebuked by the chief test pilot.

F-35 is highly expensive for two main reasons first is build mostly in expensive highly paid countries.
Second Lockheed Martin makes a profit, the F-35 is not so expensive, i give you an example, in Mexico we are building aircraft components for major aircraft companies, when we build our local projects, these are much cheaper than foreign made, sometimes a 1/3 of what they are made in other countries, except by what is made overseas if we build an aircraft in Mexico it is really cheap, in example Bombardier is building fuselages in Queretaro Mexico to compete with Embraer.

Now the Su-35 build for China are sold with a big profit margin, Sukhoi is selling them making a big profit because they know they have to make a profit due to the risks selling Su-35 implies.

Su-57 is more expensive true but many of the current elements are already used on Su-35, such as the engine, 117S and 117 are the same engines, some electronic subsystems are also operated in both Su-57 and Su-35.

Russia like Mexico is cheap, salaries are low, resources abundant, and contrary to Mexico you have much more experience building aircraft, so I would say while i do not know the price of Su-57 or J-20, these are much cheaper than F-35 or F-22, F-22 is mostly made in the USA, F-35 has parts made in Asia and Europe.

Su-57 at least can be 50% cheaper than F-22 and it is believable, even 60% 0r 70% less expensive could be believable, specially todays Su-57 is still just slightly better than Su-35.


I can believe Su-57 might cost 50 or 70 million dollars with some margin of profits, why? well because our trainer we are building is much cheaper than anything build in the USA, in fact our trainer the Pegasus is much cheaper than the aircraft the swiss or American sell us, and consider we import the engine.

Sukhoi gets mostly made Russian parts, so i will put you an example in Mexico a worker is paid 1/12 of what workers are paid in the USA in a day, in Mexico minimum wage is 5 dollars a day, while in the usa it can range from 70 to 90 dollars a day.

our Pegasus is probably much more affordable with similar level of technology
So to be honest i think Su-57 is pretty cheap.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Nice Su-57 pictures with a nice background

 

[Hari Sud]

With Sukhoi, super Sukhoi, MIG -29, Rafale and LCA in Indian possession, what chance does the Pakistani Air Force has against highly trained IAF. No matter how much the PAF deny that their bombs on February 27 released over brigade headquarter hurriedly went a mile wide. They also lost a much more modern F-16 to an antiquated MIG -21. All their AAMRAMs went off the mark hence that does not speak highly of PAF.

On China border, the situation is worst. Chinese have a much depleted Air Force with bulk of their more modern Russian jets are opposite Taiwan and Japan, about 3000km away. Rest of their airforce is Korean war vintage fighters, all copies. Moreover a Tibet being a 4000 to 5000 ft plateau prevents the modern fighters to take off with full Bomb and fuel load. They shave to be refuelled in the air, makes them vulnerable to attacks at their weak point. Moreover they have to cross 200 mikes wide Himalayas before the Chinese Air Force is effective. Hence again IAF has an upper hand here. Chinese can unleash missiles but that opens them to Indian missiles etc. Hence it is a stalemate at the Chinese border. Other than intimidation and Doklam type pinpricks there is nothing more they can do.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Has anybody noticed that many jets are long compared to their cross section. We faced the aerodynamic issue with Tejas because of poor area ruling as cross section increased rapidly with length. Look at Grippen E, Su 57 etc. They are long and thin planes which gives them better aerodynamic and hence higher speed and acceleration. Opposite to that, F 35 is Fat and hence poor maneuverability (Partly because of Stealth Design as well) and speed inspite of Powerful engine. We have designed AMCA in same manner. It is ling and highly aerodynamic.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

They also lost a much more modern F-16 to an antiquated MIG -21. All their AAMRAMs went off the mark hence that does not speak highly of PAF.

No F-16's or Su 30's were harmed on Feb 27, 2019. From a purely neutral standpoint Feb 27 was a win for the PAF. Some key observations from that day and it does not look good for the IAF.

- No secure comms - points to institutional negligence on the part of the IAF.
- No reliable BVR,
- Airborne surveillance coverage gaps

Indian's should ask its government and the IAF some tough questions. Was the IAF or MOD negligent to not address the above issues before a serious conflict. Surely these issues were known before Feb 27th.

Pakistan is manageable but if you get into a fight with China with these types of internal problems you will suffer serious consequences.

 

[Neptune]

No F-16's or Su 30's were harmed on Feb 27, 2019. From a purely neutral standpoint Feb 27 was a win for the PAF. Some key observations from that day and it does not look good for the IAF.

- No secure comms - points to institutional negligence on the part of the IAF.
- No reliable BVR,
- Airborne surveillance coverage gaps

Indian's should ask its government and the IAF some tough questions. Was the IAF or MOD negligent to not address the above issues before a serious conflict. Surely these issues were known before Feb 27th.

Pakistan is manageable but if you get into a fight with China with these types of internal problems you will suffer serious consequences.

I agree there was a lot of errors and mistakes by the Indian Air Force but you are also mistaken on a few points. Firstly the IAF was completely unprepared for the PAF to retaliate so quickly, as a consequence they had no AWACS airborne just one on the ground with radar operators.

Both sides seem to have poor radar coverage due to mountainous terrain but I would argue that Pakistan was exponentially worse in this regard. They had 24+ aircraft including 3 awacs and a Mig-21 flew seemingly undetected until it got about 7km inside Pakistan.

Indian communications and data link was pure garbage. Pakistanis intercepted Indian communications and used them for propaganda warfare. Such as the callsign Avenger which they intercepted from ground controllers and made propaganda statues claiming they downed Avenger1. Of course Avenger1 and it’s pilot were awarded at Indian Air Force day and Pakistan never provided any evidence. Furthermore India downed one of its helicopters on accident and I suspect that the downed Mig-21 likely was jammed because he did not know he was in Pakistan until it was too late.


As for unreliable BVR, this is where you are misinformed. Firstly the AMRAAMs Pakistanis fired were slightly longer range then the R-77 but most importantly the Pakistanis had the altitude advantage. I believe F-16s were at 40,000 feet launching AMMRAMs while the SU-30 was at around 15,000 feet waiting for low flying F-16 that we’re waiting to ambush it as per Abis account. At those altitudes the AMMRAMs will have maximum range while the R-77s will not. The higher the altitude of a missile, the longer range it will have. It’s also know and verified by photos that Pakistani fired AMMRAMS and then turned ‘cold’ aka hauled ass. The Pakistani F-16s at 40,000 feet were essentially going in circles firing AMMRAMS and then fleeing, much like a circus carousel. The SU-30 could not fire back because it was too low to effectively fire at F-16s and was too busy evading AMMRAMS all the while being attacked by 8 F-16s, one high flying pair and one lower flying pair hoping to ambush the SU-30 which was detected by the Mig-21 that was downed.

I can assure you that even older generation Russian A2A missiles are potent enough to down aircraft. The Houthies/Iranians modified many to be fired from the ground and many videos exist of them shooting down or damaging modern western aircraft in Yemen where they lost over 40 aircraft since 2015.

 

[ashdoc]

I agree there was a lot of errors and mistakes by the Indian Air Force but you are also mistaken on a few points. Firstly the IAF was completely unprepared for the PAF to retaliate so quickly, as a consequence they had no AWACS airborne just one on the ground with radar operators.

Both sides seem to have poor radar coverage due to mountainous terrain but I would argue that Pakistan was exponentially worse in this regard. They had 24+ aircraft including 3 awacs and a Mig-21 flew seemingly undetected until it got about 7km inside Pakistan.

Indian communications and data link was pure garbage. Pakistanis intercepted Indian communications and used them for propaganda warfare. Such as the callsign Avenger which they intercepted from ground controllers and made propaganda statues claiming they downed Avenger1. Of course Avenger1 and it’s pilot were awarded at Indian Air Force day and Pakistan never provided any evidence. Furthermore India downed one of its helicopters on accident and I suspect that the downed Mig-21 likely was jammed because he did not know he was in Pakistan until it was too late.


As for unreliable BVR, this is where you are misinformed. Firstly the AMRAAMs Pakistanis fired were slightly longer range then the R-77 but most importantly the Pakistanis had the altitude advantage. I believe F-16s were at 40,000 feet launching AMMRAMs while the SU-30 was at around 15,000 feet waiting for low flying F-16 that we’re waiting to ambush it as per Abis account. At those altitudes the AMMRAMs will have maximum range while the R-77s will not. The higher the altitude of a missile, the longer range it will have. It’s also know and verified by photos that Pakistani fired AMMRAMS and then turned ‘cold’ aka hauled ass. The Pakistani F-16s at 40,000 feet were essentially going in circles firing AMMRAMS and then fleeing, much like a circus carousel. The SU-30 could not fire back because it was too low to effectively fire at F-16s and was too busy evading AMMRAMS all the while being attacked by 8 F-16s, one high flying pair and one lower flying pair hoping to ambush the SU-30 which was detected by the Mig-21 that was downed.

I can assure you that even older generation Russian A2A missiles are potent enough to down aircraft. The Houthies/Iranians modified many to be fired from the ground and many videos exist of them shooting down or damaging modern western aircraft in Yemen where they lost over 40 aircraft since 2015.

The very fact that India was not psychologically prepared for Pakistani retaliation the very next day shows that Pakistan is ahead of us in pure aggression , even in the modi era . Ghafoor had warned after balakot strike that we will surprise you ( or words to that effect ) and yet we were not prepared !!

 

[death.by.chocolate]

I agree there was a lot of errors and mistakes by the Indian Air Force but you are also mistaken on a few points. Firstly the IAF was completely unprepared for the PAF to retaliate so quickly, as a consequence they had no AWACS airborne just one on the ground with radar operators.

Both sides seem to have poor radar coverage due to mountainous terrain but I would argue that Pakistan was exponentially worse in this regard. They had 24+ aircraft including 3 awacs and a Mig-21 flew seemingly undetected until it got about 7km inside Pakistan.

Indian communications and data link was pure garbage. Pakistanis intercepted Indian communications and used them for propaganda warfare. Such as the callsign Avenger which they intercepted from ground controllers and made propaganda statues claiming they downed Avenger1. Of course Avenger1 and it’s pilot were awarded at Indian Air Force day and Pakistan never provided any evidence. Furthermore India downed one of its helicopters on accident and I suspect that the downed Mig-21 likely was jammed because he did not know he was in Pakistan until it was too late.


As for unreliable BVR, this is where you are misinformed. Firstly the AMRAAMs Pakistanis fired were slightly longer range then the R-77 but most importantly the Pakistanis had the altitude advantage. I believe F-16s were at 40,000 feet launching AMMRAMs while the SU-30 was at around 15,000 feet waiting for low flying F-16 that we’re waiting to ambush it as per Abis account. At those altitudes the AMMRAMs will have maximum range while the R-77s will not. The higher the altitude of a missile, the longer range it will have. It’s also know and verified by photos that Pakistani fired AMMRAMS and then turned ‘cold’ aka hauled ass. The Pakistani F-16s at 40,000 feet were essentially going in circles firing AMMRAMS and then fleeing, much like a circus carousel. The SU-30 could not fire back because it was too low to effectively fire at F-16s and was too busy evading AMMRAMS all the while being attacked by 8 F-16s, one high flying pair and one lower flying pair hoping to ambush the SU-30 which was detected by the Mig-21 that was downed.

I can assure you that even older generation Russian A2A missiles are potent enough to down aircraft. The Houthies/Iranians modified many to be fired from the ground and many videos exist of them shooting down or damaging modern western aircraft in Yemen where they lost over 40 aircraft since 2015.

There are several Indian Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) reports that document reliability, serviceability and performance issues with Russian A2A missiles - its on the internet and easy to find. So I will not debate that point here,

The rest of your story about PAF F-16's flying in circles firing AMRAAM's is laughable. The PAF has a small inventory of AIM 120's its not going to waste these expensive missiles (1.7m$ per unit) taking pot shots at the IAF.

 

[abhay rajput]

There are several Indian Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) reports that document reliability, serviceability and performance issues with Russian A2A missiles - its on the internet and easy to find. So I will not debate that point here,

The rest of your story about PAF F-16's flying in circles firing AMRAAM's is laughable. The PAF has a small inventory of AIM 120's its not going to waste these expensive missiles (1.7m$ per unit) taking pot shots at the IAF.

PAF has 500 missiles.. I would not say it's a small quantity

 

[death.by.chocolate]

PAF has 500 missiles.. I would not say it's a small quantity

It's small, one USN Aircraft carrier has a larger stockpile of missiles than the PAF. Besides, the PAF is not guaranteed more supplies of AIM 120s from the US add to that they have no money.


.

 

[ashdoc]

It's small, one USN Aircraft carrier has a larger stockpile of missiles than the PAF. Besides, the PAF is not guaranteed more supplies of AIM 120s from the US add to that they have no money.


.

Yes but a chance of such a confrontation comes only once a blue moon. The PAF was hardly going to miss it . Otherwise it will have to wait till missiles go past expiry date .

 

[abhay rajput]

It's small, one USN Aircraft carrier has a larger stockpile of missiles than the PAF. Besides, the PAF is not guaranteed more supplies of AIM 120s from the US add to that they have no money.


.

Every country can not be compared with USA.. 500 is sufficient for the size of Pakistan air force... They can get from many different places other than USA.

 

[Guest]

No F-16's or Su 30's were harmed on Feb 27, 2019. From a purely neutral standpoint Feb 27 was a win for the PAF.

Everyone saw three parachutes, so there was at least one more combat aircraft crashing that day. Which aircraft it was has not been 100% clear.

IAF was waiting in ambush, The idea was to lure in the F-16s in the SAM kill zone. F-16s panicked dropped their loads in haste and fired BVR at long range, significantly reducing their effectiveness.

Mig 21 which chased the F-16 did it in the heat of the moment to score a kill, It has been indicated that the chase of F-16 was not required. Abhinandan the Mig 21 pilot has been awarded Veer Chakra for a F-16 kill by India.

 

[Guest]

PAF has 500 missiles.. I would not say it's a small quantity

Those missiles were released as a part of 2009 deal. I don't know the expiry date of Aim120C-5, but 10 years is a long time. They have to use them or it will be dead or malfunction.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Yes but a chance of such a confrontation comes only once a blue moon. The PAF was hardly going to miss it . Otherwise it will have to wait till missiles go past expiry date .

30 years minimum with routine maintenance so that is not a concern for the PAF.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Everyone saw three parachutes, so there was at least one more combat aircraft crashing that day. Which aircraft it was has not been 100% clear.

IAF was waiting in ambush, The idea was to lure in the F-16s in the SAM kill zone. F-16s panicked dropped their loads in haste and fired BVR at long range, significantly reducing their effectiveness.

Mig 21 which chased the F-16 did it in the heat of the moment to score a kill, It has been indicated that the chase of F-16 was not required. Abhinandan the Mig 21 pilot has been awarded Veer Chakra for a F-16 kill by India.

The F-16's never left Pakistani airspace so not sure what you're on about...

 

[Guest]

The F-16's never left Pakistani airspace so not sure what you're on about...

All three parachutes fell on the Pakistani side.

 

[Hari Sud]

No F-16's or Su 30's were harmed on Feb 27, 2019. From a purely neutral standpoint Feb 27 was a win for the PAF. Some key observations from that day and it does not look good for the IAF.

- No secure comms - points to institutional negligence on the part of the IAF.
- No reliable BVR,
- Airborne surveillance coverage gaps

Indian's should ask its government and the IAF some tough questions. Was the IAF or MOD negligent to not address the above issues before a serious conflict. Surely these issues were known before Feb 27th.

Pakistan is manageable but if you get into a fight with China with these types of internal problems you will suffer serious consequences.

You fail to acknowledge that One F-16 went down and its pilot mistaken to be an Indian Pilot was beaten to death.

You Americans are so over confident that your prestige alone will not allow you to acknowledge that a high performing F-16 was shot down by antiquated MiG-21. Pakistan lied. They have extra F-16 obtained from Jordan and put that on display to confuse their own as well as American media.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

All three parachutes fell on the Pakistani side.

You do realize that 1 parachute does not equal 1 pilot, there are other parachutes on the aircraft.
A single ejection seat depending on make and origin can have up to three chutes. Then there is the drogue chute on the aircraft that is used for landing, these can be deployed when an aircraft is hit and the system is damaged.

The number of chutes is not evidence of anything...

 

[Neptune]

There are several Indian Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) reports that document reliability, serviceability and performance issues with Russian A2A missiles - its on the internet and easy to find. So I will not debate that point here,

The Performance “issue” is good to down dozens of super reliable western aircraft over Yemen including 9 American aircraft (mostly drones).

Actually here is photo proof of those losses if you narrow the search. Don’t believe me? Many of the photos have video too, F-16s, Apaches, Typhoons, Predators, and many more aircraft have been nailed by “unreliable” Soviet A2A missiles modified to be fired from the ground.


https://lostarmour.info/yemen/


Just recently:

The rest of your story about PAF F-16's flying in circles firing AMRAAM's is laughable.

Only you are laughable, even American pilots were amazed at how incompetent Pakistani F-16 pilots were. Here is a photo of those F-16 launching and running. Once again, this demonstrates that the lone SU-30 was in no position to fire back since it was evading constant AMRAAMS from a lower altitude were its own missiles didn’t have the range.

The PAF has a small inventory of AIM 120's its not going to waste these expensive missiles (1.7m$ per unit) taking pot shots at the IAF.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/294448977_Pakistan_joins_AMRAAM_club_in_biggest-ever_buy

Their last order was at least 500 units of the 120 C-5 variant and an unspecified number of AIM-9Ms, that does not take into account other types of missiles they had for their F-16s before this order. That’s a large quantity and your opinion means nothing. I have facts to prove my point.