Sukhoi PAK FA

[Defcon 1]

You do realize that 1 parachute does not equal 1 pilot, there are other parachutes on the aircraft.
A single ejection seat depending on make and origin can have up to three chutes. Then there is the drogue chute on the aircraft that is used for landing, these can be deployed when an aircraft is hit and the system is damaged.

The number of chutes is not evidence of anything...

During the entire incident, Pakistan has been caught lying multiple times with proofs. So their claims have no credibility. IAF on the other hand did manage to prove their claims. So naturally IAF is more reliable party here. This neutral viewpoint thing is nothing more than a hogwash.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

You fail to acknowledge that One F-16 went down and its pilot mistaken to be an Indian Pilot was beaten to death.

You Americans are so over confident that your prestige alone will not allow you to acknowledge that a high performing F-16 was shot down by antiquated MiG-21. Pakistan lied. They have extra F-16 obtained from Jordan and put that on display to confuse their own as well as American media.

The loss of a PAF F-16 cannot be covered up - its impossible, the US has eyes on every F-16 in Pakistan.

This isn't the first F-16 to be shot down in combat so the US is least concerned about the loss of "prestige" of a nearly 50 year old platform.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

The Performance “issue” is good to down dozens of super reliable western aircraft over Yemen including 9 American aircraft (mostly drones).

Actually here is photo proof of those losses if you narrow the search. Don’t believe me? Many of the photos have video too, F-16s, Apaches, Typhoons, Predators, and many more aircraft have been nailed by “unreliable” Soviet A2A missiles modified to be fired from the ground.

More spin and desperation, crediting Russian missiles for kills in Yemen because it suits your narrative. The Houthis more than likely used Iranian missiles to down Saudi aircraft.

Meanwhile the IAF are troubled by Russian missiles that explode as soon as it leaves the launch rails during routine testing. Read the CAG report it has more facts than your internet conspiracy theories.

Please don't take credit away from the Iranians and their Kebab 2 or Shabab 6 missile

In this incident many sides, even those not directly involved, want to spin to their advantage. The Saudis will only admit to losing one plane that day to a “technical failure,” with no mention of combat. The Houthis say they shot down one plane and damaged another, but are coy as to exactly how they did it. A conspiracy web site is pushing its own version of what happened, while some random person on YouTube muddies the waters by uploading a video that conflates the Yemen shootdown with a Russian-Turkish shootdown in 2015.

It’s war in the age of the Internet, and the truth takes some time to untangle.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a14929167/yemen-rebels-shot-down-f15-tornado/

Only you are laughable, even American pilots were amazed at how incompetent Pakistani F-16 pilots were. Here is a photo of those F-16 launching and running. Once again, this demonstrates that the lone SU-30 was in no position to fire back since it was evading constant AMRAAMS from a lower altitude were its own missiles didn’t have the range.

Vapor trails seriously - that's all you have? Evidence of the famous PAF "circus carousel" fighting technique.

You know that's not how AIM 120 C7's works right, the launching platform guides the missile with its radar and so cannot turn immediately after launching - if it does the missile goes dumb. The only scenario in which your argument makes sense is if the AIM 120 C7 was launched within visual range. Was the Su 30 in visual range? I don't think so....

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Yep , just like WMD's in iraq couldn't be left in saddams hand.

I sometimes wonder if Pakis picked up this habit of lying and hiding their failures from their time as allies with Americans.

Sure we were fooled then by our administration. If you love your country, I assume you do then you should hold your government accountable.

Ask them why the Pakistani's were able to listen in on IAF comms? Why were they able to jam IAF comms?
Why were IAF fighters forced into a defensive posture / retreat on Feb 27th? Neptune talks about F-16's firing random AIM 120 missiles from its perch at 40,000 ft. Did the F-16's get there by magic undetected? Of course not, then why were IAF fighters. the Su 30's and Mirage 2000 on patrol not directed into a position to negate that advantage?

It's not about internet prestige and bragging rights. If you want your country to progress you should make sure your institutions are held to a higher standard.

 

[Neptune]

More spin and desperation, crediting Russian missiles for kills in Yemen because it suits your narrative. The Houthis more than likely used Iranian missiles to down Saudi aircraft.

Wow, I’m stunned by your brazen denial. Both Yemen and Iranians have stockpiles of old Russian R-27s, those same missiles are seen in videos being fired. Yet you go into unfounded conspiracies.


Here is very credible sources with proof:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...h-r-27-air-to-air-missile-modified-into-a-sam


https://theaviationgeekclub.com/her...sams-against-saudi-led-coalition-aircraft/amp


https://amp.businessinsider.com/video-houthi-r-27t-russia-missile-attacking-saudi-fighter-jet-2018-3

Meanwhile the IAF are troubled by Russian missiles that explode as soon as it leaves the launch rails during routine testing. Read the CAG report it has more facts than your internet conspiracy theories.

Russian missiles are so terrible yet India just ordered a stockpiles of 700. The CAG report also dates back to 2009 and I couldn’t not find anything about missiles exploding. No systems are perfect, in the case of missiles they need to be stored in proper conditions, high humidity will obviously cause reliability issues which is the problem in many part of India.

But that is besides the point, you made an erroneous comment without any evidence to back your claim. If you want to talk above reliability we can do that all day, in combat US missiles have terrible track records, from Syria, to Indo Pakistani conflicts to the gulf and Vietnam the reliability is poor. I can also claim the F-35 have 800 flaws and defects.

But all this is irrelevant and a disingenuous attempt by you to link decades old reports to the February skirmish.You claimed Russian missiles were unreliable during the February skirmish. Now where is the proof? Based on Indian radar data, Air Marshal interviews and photographs the SU-30 was unable to fire because it was busy evading 8 F-16, the SU-30 was too low to get maximum range from its R-77s.

Here is radar data confirming to altitude of F-16s:

Radar data shows F-16s turning, very similarly to the “vapor trail” photo.

Please don't take credit away from the Iranians and their Kebab 2 or Shabab 6 missile

Wow, just when I thought you could not stoop any lower, fictional ballistic missiles can now shoot down aircraft



https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Shahab-6

Shahab-6 (Toqyān) is the designation of an alleged and possibly fictional Iranian long-range ballistic missile project alleged to exist by Israeli sources, and supposed to be an extension of the Shahab ("meteor") series of missiles, and first reported to the world by Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu in 1997.




Here is a clearly an R-27 being launched in Yemen.

Vapor trails seriously - that's all you have? Evidence of the famous PAF "circus carousel" fighting technique.

Considering the fact that you brought up fictional Iranian ballistic missiles and tried to claim that they were responsible for all the aircraft shot down over Yemen it would not surprise me if you will start claiming those vapor trails happen to be from airliners taking high G turns and launching missiles or Santa Claus and his rain deer dog fighting Indian aircraft


The photo in question clearly shows military aircraft turning and launching missiles at the exact place, time and day that Indian Pakistani aerial skirmishes were happening. Of course you will be in denial despite obvious and overwhelming evidence.

You know that's not how AIM 120 C7's works right, the launching platform guides the missile with its radar and so cannot turn immediately after launching - if it does the missile goes dumb. The only scenario in which your argument makes sense is if the AIM 120 C7 was launched within visual range. Was the Su 30 in visual range? I don't think so....

Do you know how AMMRAMS work? Data links between other aircraft including AWACS can guide the missile. Pakistani had plenty of other aircraft and AWACS airborne that day. We are also talking about Pakistanis here, Americans, Russian and Indians have basically stated Pakistan’s are morons. Even if Pakistanis had no AWACS or other aircraft to guide AMRAAMS they would still launch missiles, scream Allah Akbar, turn tail and claim victory as they always do. These are the same people claiming they intentionally hit trees so they could pound their chests, the excuse for the ‘intentional miss’ was because they didn’t want to “harm” anyone but had no problems launching AMRAAMS and shelling the LOC.

 

[Neptune]

Sure we were fooled then by our administration. If you love your country, I assume you do then you should hold your government accountable.

Ask them why the Pakistani's were able to listen in on IAF comms? Why were they able to jam IAF comms?
Why were IAF fighters forced into a defensive posture / retreat on Feb 27th? Neptune talks about F-16's firing random AIM 120 missiles from its perch at 40,000 ft. Did the F-16's get there by magic undetected? Of course not, then why were IAF fighters. the Su 30's and Mirage 2000 on patrol not directed into a position to negate that advantage?

It's not about internet prestige and bragging rights. If you want your country to progress you should make sure your institutions are held to a higher standard.

The Pakistanis launched a surprise attack with 24 aircraft at once including many AWACS. The Pakistanis according to their fake monuments actually had more then 24 aircraft that day. How did you expect the IAF to go on the offensive with only a handful of aircraft airborne at the time, some of which had to turn back because their fuel was depleted, how would the IAF go on the offense when the Pakistanis didn’t stick around long?

The IAF squadron commander also stated that she immediately detected Pakistani aircraft and vectored Mig-21s to confront them. Hence the Mig-21 that was shot down. You clearly don’t know anything about what happened that day. Clearly the IAF had poor judgement, they were caught off guard and not enough aircraft were launched on a timely manner to confront the PAF but you somehow are asking why the IAF did not go on the offensive?

 

[MiG-29SMT]

The loss of a PAF F-16 cannot be covered up - its impossible, the US has eyes on every F-16 in Pakistan.

This isn't the first F-16 to be shot down in combat so the US is least concerned about the loss of "prestige" of a nearly 50 year old platform.

the americans have close to 50 years denying any air to air loss since 1970, Israel does the same, Pakistan does the same.


To put a simple example in 1982 the Soviets and Syrians acknowledged their losses, Israel only admitted losses when their pilots were captured and paraded, the Americans in 1991 lost at least 30 aircraft according to their own account, they always claimed SAMs beat their aircraft, the reality is if Russian SAMs are so good why then their AAMs are not as good.



Today is the same, the americans denied the lose of the F-117 in 1999 but let us remember the Serbs showed the wreckage of the F-117 then they did not have other option that to admit the lose.


The cruel reality is the USAF will not be able to beat IAF, RuAF or PLAAF simply because these air forces are armed to the teeth, and even their aircraft carriers will not survive attacks by Tu-22Ms or Chinese Tu-16s, further more Indian and Chinese Su-30s are much newer and more advanced than their vintage F-15s, their F-18 while advanced lack range which will increase their vulnerability if Tu-22Ms or Su-30MKIs armed with Brahmos are available, the USAF will not win a conventional war against these air forces, despite their boasting.

The USAF is an imperial force to attack weak air forces like Iraq supported by NATO.


In 1991, MiG-31s were going to be able to down most aircraft and Syria once it had Russian SAMs has being able to stop cruise missiles launched by the USA.

Americans sadly like propaganda, but in true war the ability to win it is not as assured as they claim

 

[fire starter]

the americans have close to 50 years denying any air to air loss since 1970, Israel does the same, Pakistan does the same.


To put a simple example in 1982 the Soviets and Syrians acknowledged their losses, Israel only admitted losses when their pilots were captured and paraded, the Americans in 1991 lost at least 30 aircraft according to their own account, they always claimed SAMs beat their aircraft, the reality is if Russian SAMs are so good why then their AAMs are not as good.



Today is the same, the americans denied the lose of the F-117 in 1999 but let us remember the Serbs showed the wreckage of the F-117 then they did not have other option that to admit the lose.


The cruel reality is the USAF will not be able to beat IAF, RuAF or PLAAF simply because these air forces are armed to the teeth, and even their aircraft carriers will not survive attacks by Tu-22Ms or Chinese Tu-16s, further more Indian and Chinese Su-30s are much newer and more advanced than their vintage F-15s, their F-18 while advanced lack range which will increase their vulnerability if Tu-22Ms or Su-30MKIs armed with Brahmos are available, the USAF will not win a conventional war against these air forces, despite their boasting.

The USAF is an imperial force to attack weak air forces like Iraq supported by NATO.


In 1991, MiG-31s were going to be able to down most aircraft and Syria once it had Russian SAMs has being able to stop cruise missiles launched by the USA.

Americans sadly like propaganda, but in true war the ability to win it is not as assured as they claim

USAF is top air force in world what ever u say but they have best weapons,technology and pilots.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

USAF is top air force in world what ever u say but they have best weapons,technology and pilots.

you are right they have they best air force, but you have to see their F-15s are old as well many of their F-16s, they made the mistake of make F-35 a jack of all trades, and the F-22 are few and SAMs and radars also evolved, are they the most powerful air force? yes, but being the most powerful is not unbeatable, specially when they are so spread around the world, India has more Su-30s to beat a single aircraft carrier and the americans are in many countries, so contrary to the IAF they will not send all their aircraft, so an aircraft carrier is good to attack a nation like Venezuela, Iran or Sudan, but against an air force like PLAAF or IAF, no they do not enjoy the tactical or strategic advantage because remember submarines can hunt aircraft carriers and China, Russia and India also have nukes, so the sad reality is the USAF will not win local conflicts, only will beat weak air forces the Su-57 is mostly designed for small conflicts against China, India or Russia, big war is with hypersonic weapons and nukes, the USAF will not win such wars only small wars with weak countries

 

[fire starter]

you are right they have they best air force, but you have to see their F-15s are old as well many of their F-16s, they made the mistake of make F-35 a jack of all trades, and the F-22 are few and SAMs and radars also evolved, are they the most powerful air force? yes, but being the most powerful is not unbeatable, specially when they are so spread around the world, India has more Su-30s to beat a single aircraft carrier and the americans are in many countries, so contrary to the IAF they will not send all their aircraft, so an aircraft carrier is good to attack a nation like Venezuela, Iran or Sudan, but against an air force like PLAAF or IAF, no they do not enjoy the tactical or strategic advantage because remember submarines can hunt aircraft carriers and China, Russia and India also have nukes, so the sad reality is the USAF will not win local conflicts, only will beat weak air forces the Su-57 is mostly designed for small conflicts against China, India or Russia, big war is with hypersonic weapons and nukes, the USAF will not win such wars only small wars with weak countries

well f35 looks fat and clumsy like average American .they paid more attention on stealth than aerodynamics .

 

[Guest]

30 years minimum with routine maintenance so that is not a concern for the PAF.

They also obtain from black market.

You do realize that 1 parachute does not equal 1 pilot, there are other parachutes on the aircraft.
A single ejection seat depending on make and origin can have up to three chutes. Then there is the drogue chute on the aircraft that is used for landing, these can be deployed when an aircraft is hit and the system is damaged.

The number of chutes is not evidence of anything...

See you should go through the Mig21 shoot down F-16 thread, different videos posted there which strongly points out more than two jets crashing and more than one pilot getting caught.

In fact in one video they are claiming that they beat up the other pilot badly, the person claims him to be a Sikh due to beard, but clearly there was no Sikh pilot involved, he was one of Pakistani pilot.

Pakistan military spokes person also say that three pilots caught. The ground commanders also asking about the other pilot. So lots of evidence to point out that more than one jet crashed that day, and everything dropped on the Pakistani side.

So the onus is on Pakistan to come out clean, since everything fell on their side. IAF already showed AWACS data, where one F-16 disappeared from the track.

They also showed Aim120C-5 wreckage to support their side of the story.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

well f35 looks fat and clumsy like average American .they paid more attention on stealth than aerodynamics .

In order to understand Su-57 or F-35 we have to see their needs and niche.

For Russia, the ICBMs, SLBM and submarines and hypersonic weapons are priority, it does not matter China or the USA build more weapons, Russia just needs the one that assure these rivals will be highly mauled if they attack Russia.

PAKFA Su-57 is not that type of weapon, it is a tactical fighter, it is more to export and make money, why? well the USAF is an imperial air force to be used on weak nations.

F-35 has to deal with Su-30s or MiG-29s and S-300s or S-400s, so Russia designed the Su-57 as counterpart, pretty much Su-35 can deal with such threads, but it is getting old, so Su-57 assures export market share in conflicts like India had with Pakistan or Syria has now, and potentially Iran or Venezuela can have.

F-35 is basically built thinking Russia or China do not have real counterparts to sell to nations like Iran, Su-35 while it is a good aircraft, well it is an old platform first flown in 1977 and 1981.

J-10 is old a JAS-39 gripen type of thread, J-11 despite all the fanfair is old too, not better than the old F-15 and not a high performance aircraft like Rafale or Eurofighter.

F-35 is an attack aircraft, but really ill suited for replace the A-10, A-10 is a flying tank, so well it will not really be better it is too delicate, the F-16 is a better dogfighter in general terms and Su-35 is even better same Rafale.


F-35 is an stealth attack aircraft, Su-57 its main export rival to intercept it and down it.

J-31 is a copy of F-35 but much more limited than F-35 and J-20 too big to win the export market, Su-57 does not fill well its niche, because the engine is the main concern of Russia once they have something like f135, they will be able to make a F-35 type fighter to compete with it, J-31 might eventually compete but its size limit makes it less capable as dogfighter and it repeats the mistakes of F-35 with even more limited engines.

So F-35 indeed is a good export tool, Su-35, Su-57 or J-20 can not compete in reality, Russia will need a right engine and make a single engined fighter to compete or make their UCAV a machine to partially deal with F-35.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Russian missiles are so terrible yet India just ordered a stockpiles of 700. The CAG report also dates back to 2009 and I couldn’t not find anything about missiles exploding.
.

Shabab I think means young girl in Hindi ?
....and Kebab barbecued minced meat and not the names of actual Iranian missiles

Russian missiles are so terrible yet India just ordered a stockpiles of 700. The CAG report also dates back to 2009 and I couldn’t not find anything about missiles exploding.
.

III. Serviceability of Missiles is suspect A critical armament for the MiG 29K aircraft is a BVR missile, which augments the ‘Beyond Visual Range’ capability of the aircraft. The missile “X”, one such BVR missile was acquired by the Indian Air Force between 1999 and 2002. However, the serviceability status of the missile, in evidence prior to the Navy contract of March 2006, has been poor as brought out in paragraph No. 3.2 of the Report of the C&AG of India, No. CA 18 of 2008-09.

High rate of unserviceability was noticed by IAF since 1999 from the first lot of missiles received. By November 2005, IAF decided against refurbishing the missiles “X” after life expiry and started considering a suitable replacement for future procurements.

Excerpts from a 2011 CAG Report documenting no improvements in the performance or serviceability of Russian BVR missiles since the CAG report of 2009. The CAG report recommends 'alternatives to Russian missiles'. But since Russia will not let India integrate Israeli or French alternatives the IAF has no real options except may be a domestic variant (Astra?).

You can download the full report at the CAG website.

May be the IAF needs to sub contract the servicing of Russian missiles to the Houthis. May be they can get them damn things to work

 

[death.by.chocolate]

They also obtain from black market.


See you should go through the Mig21 shoot down F-16 thread, different videos posted there which strongly points out more than two jets crashing and more than one pilot getting caught.

In fact in one video they are claiming that they beat up the other pilot badly, the person claims him to be a Sikh due to beard, but clearly there was no Sikh pilot involved, he was one of Pakistani pilot.

Pakistan military spokes person also say that three pilots caught. The ground commanders also asking about the other pilot. So lots of evidence to point out that more than one jet crashed that day, and everything dropped on the Pakistani side.

So the onus is on Pakistan to come out clean, since everything fell on their side. IAF already showed AWACS data, where one F-16 disappeared from the track.

They also showed Aim120C-5 wreckage to support their side of the story.

None of what you say matters - on Feb 27th a serving officer of the IAF became an internet meme. The world saw the smoking remains of an IAF aircraft, an IAF officer in chains, held captive by Pakistan. The world did not see the burning wreak of an F-16, a captured PAF pilot etc... So in general the IAF did not come out smelling of roses on that day.
Claims of downing an F-16 just seems a desperate attempt at face saving.

Trust me when I say this Pakistan is much hated by current and former members of the US armed forces for its complicity in the loss of American lives over the last decade. The personnel monitoring PAF jets in Pakistan will be very pleased to report the downing of a PAF F-16. Finally, the US investigates every major incident involving a US made military aircraft type active in its own inventory. The loss of an F-16 cannot be hidden - just can't happen.

If Indians are assuaged by the shoot down of a Phantom F-16 then so be it. Lets all pretend ...
....the IAF is "fantastic"

 

[Neptune]

Shabab I think means young girl in Hindi ?
....and Kebab barbecued minced meat and not the names of actual Iranian missiles






Excerpts from a 2011 CAG Report documenting no improvements in the performance or serviceability of Russian BVR missiles since the CAG report of 2009. The CAG report recommends 'alternatives to Russian missiles'. But since Russia will not let India integrate Israeli or French alternatives the IAF has no real options except may be a domestic variant (Astra?).

You can download the full report at the CAG website.

May be the IAF needs to sub contract the servicing of Russian missiles to the Houthis. May be they can get them damn things to work

India is buying the Python-6 which is mostly political and higher over rated like all Israeli technical which inevitably performs poor in combat. India also integrated Russian missiles into Mirages without French permission so I’m not sure where you or the CAG get it’s knowledge from.


The funniest part is that US missiles in combat have performed like hot garbage. In Iraq dozens of US planes would fire off volleys of missiles at a single aircraft and still often come away with no kills so reliability and performance is relative.

 

[fire starter]

None of what you say matters - on Feb 27th a serving officer of the IAF became an internet meme. The world saw the smoking remains of an IAF aircraft, an IAF officer in chains, held captive by Pakistan. The world did not see the burning wreak of an F-16, a captured PAF pilot etc... So in general the IAF did not come out smelling of roses on that day.
Claims of downing an F-16 just seems a desperate attempt at face saving.

Trust me when I say this Pakistan is much hated by current and former members of the US armed forces for its complicity in the loss of American lives over the last decade. The personnel monitoring PAF jets in Pakistan will be very pleased to report the downing of a PAF F-16. Finally, the US investigates every major incident involving a US made military aircraft type active in its own inventory. The loss of an F-16 cannot be hidden - just can't happen.

If Indians are assuaged by the shoot down of a Phantom F-16 then so be it. Lets all pretend ...
....the IAF is "fantastic"

yeah we saw face saving attempt of foreign policy who claimed that no f16 was shot down but very next day this claim was refused by Pentagon.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Typical dumb american,
"None of what you say matters"
Only Murican propaganda matters
of course when US losers can't refute they cry like this ,
Just like your "WIN" in Afghanistan............How many Muricans you lost for poppy business?

Believing and propaganda is your forte, won't change the fact that Lockheed martin cried a river to us and begged us to buy F-18 or F-21 which another murican scam of just changing numbers and selling same crap (wolf of wall street)
We showed them radar data and simply said your crap lost to a mig 21 when mig was outnumbered .

We know F-16 export potential declined dramatically when it had actual combat facing a trained AF and Not abduls with Aks

Do you feel better now? Did venting you anger with insults help? :biggrin2:

By the way, LM continues to sell more F-16 "crap" to Bulgaria, Bahrain, Taiwan and Iraq in 2019 likely new sales to Morocco and Indonesia.
And if begging India results in more $'s then LM Execs will be more than happy to line up at Modi's doorsteps to cry or plead ..lick shoes if necessary.....

I don't consider the IAF to be a well "trained AF" - sorry just my honest opinion.

 

[Deathstar]

Do you feel better now? Did venting you anger with insults help? :biggrin2:

By the way, LM continues to sell more F-16 "crap" to Bulgaria, Bahrain, Taiwan and Iraq in 2019 likely new sales to Morocco and Indonesia.
And if begging India results in more $'s then LM Execs will be more than happy to line up at Modi's doorsteps to cry or plead ..lick shoes if necessary.....

I don't consider the IAF to be a well "trained AF" - sorry just my honest opinion.

The Taliban says high......also Viet Cong sags bye bye

 

[death.by.chocolate]

The Taliban says high......also Viet Cong sags bye bye

Vent away... :biggrin2:

Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milošević , Ossama Bin Laden and Hitler et al agree with you...

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Why do we get into slug fests with any foreigner that shows up to our forum? Indian members, if some foreign account says something stupid, just ignore it. If you want to debate, keep it civil. If it devolves into name calling and high school level rhetoric, move on and continue discussing with other Indian members. We're just making fools of ourselves by feeding the trolls.