Sukhoi PAK FA

[Armand2REP]

In full pitch (deflection) the nozzles of the F-22 are terrible in regards to RCS, even when they are not in full pitch they have far larger gaps and discontinuities, then that of the F-35, the nozzles even have 90 degree corners which is the biggest no..no in “stealth”. The thrust vectoring sacrifices a lot and as a result you see 90 degree corners, bolts, gaps, and mechanical parts.

The F-22 nozzles are better in IR, anyone arguing otherwise is a fool.

The F-22 does not use thrust vectoring except in a dog fight so your point is moot. Anyone making that argument is a fool.

 

[Neptune]

The F-22 does not use thrust vectoring except in a dog fight so your point is moot. Anyone making that argument is a fool.

So the aircraft just flies in a straight line? The nozzles are used for pitch to either climb or descent, as far as I know they are slaved to the horizontal stabilizers. Even if I was to take your statement at face value it still would not hide the fact that because of the consequence of thrust vectoring the F-22 has large gaps and discontinuities that allow the nozzles to move. Notice the underside of the fuselage. To have the smallest RCS you want as little discontinuities as possible, that includes minimizing or reducing gaps, bolts, rivets, divots and corner reflectors.

Why are you even in this thread? You have nothing to contribute and have a history or trolling.

 

[Steven Rogers]

The SU-57 recently made a second deployment to Syria. During the first deployment it already fired cruise missiles at real targets. These deployments are made to test, evaluate, improve and mature the aircraft. Weapons, radar, navigation and engines are all tested in unfamiliar environments with hostile aircraft never far away.








What did I say was questionable? I can only present facts, if you are implying that India can produce a better radar or avionics suit then Russia I don’t know what to tell you.


.




There was an Indian delegation looking at the SU-57 last month. The Indians were also unhappy with everything, be it Typhoons or Grippens, they will bicker at anything....At the time India was evaluating the SU-57 it was far from a finished product, it for instance, used the SU-35 cockpit and engines, since then they designed and installed the proper displays and new engine were tested, as were cruise missiles and many other avionics as well as integrating and testing the aircraft with the S-70.


The SU-57 has improved drastically since India got a ‘look’. The SU-57s engines and radar are far superior to anything in the Indian Air Force including the Rafale.

Only time will tell if the radar and the engines are superior in terms of technology...No one even knows what they have kept inside the nose and the development for the radar is kept under the blanket for others,the engines as of now is still Al41 and nowhere near to be replaced anytime soon unless you leaf for a decade. So do you have the reports(RuAF report and not the RT mouthpiece) about the target and the so called missiles it fired during the deployment(hilarious to even think that did so with an incomplete project)...
Dont be so ignorant,their are benchmarks kept for every requirement and if aircraft is unable to fill any of them,it is considered "incompetent" in that field by IAF,but Alas! INDIANS are very happy with the Rafale and consider it superior to anything in asia at current,that suggest the very state of others in terms of competency....
what time youre talking about,an year or what when IAF officially shelved to procure an highly incompetent jet at that time and it suddenly leapfrogged in an year.....Proper display is not even the major problem as your "highly" competent industry can design and validate it within the given space,the basis of rejection was the senors including everything it had it had many shortfalls,from data fusion to the defence(integrated EWsenors) it was questioned and "rejected".
As i said,the day RuAF deploys a squadron and flies it for considerable times then only the su be able to attract customers......mere lsp flying in a controlled environment is not even looked by others....

 

[Steven Rogers]

The F-22 does not use thrust vectoring except in a dog fight so your point is moot. Anyone making that argument is a fool.

The f22 thrust vector is slaved to the digital flight control unlike russians platforms which have manual controls.

 

[Neptune]

Only time will tell if the radar and the engines are superior in terms of technology...No one even knows what they have kept inside the nose and the development for the radar is kept under the blanket for others,the engines as of now is still Al41 and nowhere near to be replaced anytime soon unless you leaf for a decade. So do you have the reports(RuAF report and not the RT mouthpiece) about the target and the so called missiles it fired during the deployment(hilarious to even think that did so with an incomplete project)...
Dont be so ignorant,their are benchmarks kept for every requirement and if aircraft is unable to fill any of them,it is considered "incompetent" in that field by IAF,but Alas! INDIANS are very happy with the Rafale and consider it superior to anything in asia at current,that suggest the very state of others in terms of competency....
what time youre talking about,an year or what when IAF officially shelved to procure an highly incompetent jet at that time and it suddenly leapfrogged in an year.....Proper display is not even the major problem as your "highly" competent industry can design and validate it within the given space,the basis of rejection was the senors including everything it had it had many shortfalls,from data fusion to the defence(integrated EWsenors) it was questioned and "rejected".
As i said,the day RuAF deploys a squadron and flies it for considerable times then only the su be able to attract customers......mere lsp flying in a controlled environment is not even looked by others....

The SU-57 fired cruise missiles at targets in Syria. The defense ministry released the short video. You can believe whatever you wish of that. I’m not going to argue reality to someone that has made up his mind. The SU-34 was also tested in combat over Georgia too....
As for, radar and engines. It’s quite clearly better then any in the Indian inventory including the Rafale. Unless you believe the whopping 17,000lbs engines in the Rafale that limit its altitude to just 50,000 feet are better then 40,000lbs engines that, according to the chief SU-57 pilot thrash, the SU-35 in vertical performance. Is India even getting AESA with its Rafale? Does it have the TR modules of the N036? Does it have the side lobe radars? What about the combined TR modules of both radars? Does it have the range? Situational awareness? Can it manage to track 60 targets? Once anyone looks at these things, it’s clear the Rafale falls far behind at least on paper.



When the Indians were offered the SU-57 many systems were not even ready yet. It’s like looking at the YF-22 prototype in 1990 and expecting it to have the same performance of the final production aircraft. Do you believe the YF-22 of 1990 was in any way similar to the F-22 of today? You are arguing that basically Russia has not made progress and improvements.

During the development cycle of an aircraft, changes and improvements are always made, sometimes the results exceed expectations. As technology progresses with time, the results manifest from conceptual to reality. As for Rafale, I’m not sure why people keep dragging it into this thread and comparing it to the SU-57, they are not in the same league, although the Rafale is the most advanced aircraft to enter service in India, the SU-57 has superior all around performance, smaller RCS, supercruise, longer stand-off weapons, better situational awareness, better low speed performance, far greater acceleration and service ceiling, and greater range. None of this is a surprise, the engineers/test pilot revealed some of this.


Do you actually have anything to add about the SU-57 besides complaining about an aircraft you seem to not understand very well?

 

[Armand2REP]

The f22 thrust vector is slaved to the digital flight control unlike russians platforms which have manual controls.

To avoid added stress on the wings it is not activated until a high AoA or g limit is reached beyond the normal range of its control surfaces. To do so would greatly reduce the life of the airframe over time.

 

[Steven Rogers]

The SU-57 fired cruise missiles at targets in Syria. The defense ministry released the short video. You can believe whatever you wish of that. I’m not going to argue reality to someone that has made up his mind. The SU-34 was also tested in combat over Georgia too....
As for, radar and engines. It’s quite clearly better then any in the Indian inventory including the Rafale. Unless you believe the whopping 17,000lbs engines in the Rafale that limit its altitude to just 50,000 feet are better then 40,000lbs engines that, according to the chief SU-57 pilot thrash, the SU-35 in vertical performance. Is India even getting AESA with its Rafale? Does it have the TR modules of the N036? Does it have the side lobe radars? What about the combined TR modules of both radars? Does it have the range? Situational awareness? Can it manage to track 60 targets? Once anyone looks at these things, it’s clear the Rafale falls far behind at least on paper.



When the Indians were offered the SU-57 many systems were not even ready yet. It’s like looking at the YF-22 prototype in 1990 and expecting it to have the same performance of the final production aircraft. Do you believe the YF-22 of 1990 was in any way similar to the F-22 of today? You are arguing that basically Russia has not made progress and improvements.

During the development cycle of an aircraft, changes and improvements are always made, sometimes the results exceed expectations. As technology progresses with time, the results manifest from conceptual to reality. As for Rafale, I’m not sure why people keep dragging it into this thread and comparing it to the SU-57, they are not in the same league, although the Rafale is the most advanced aircraft to enter service in India, the SU-57 has superior all around performance, smaller RCS, supercruise, longer stand-off weapons, better situational awareness, better low speed performance, far greater acceleration and service ceiling, and greater range. None of this is a surprise, the engineers/test pilot revealed some of this.


Do you actually have anything to add about the SU-57 besides complaining about an aircraft you seem to not understand very well?

What mind youre talking about? do you want us to believe that the test planes were flown by the squadron level pilots to bomb a target in a combat zone(though not a threat to fighters anymore)as a part of proof of capability,give us a break,we will send a letter to mod and will ask to use tejas lsps to bomb next balakot type strikes for us.....
The Rafale's safran m88 is more modern in terms of modularity,life span,fuel efficiency and most probably the metallurgy,also the russian engines perform short of their claimed performance in ISP. The IR signature is "relatively" low compared to the russians and as far as i know ,Rafale has better IR supression measures than the AL41.
Su57 doesnt have any stealthy engines and it cant sustain supercruise(even if it achieves supercruise).
India is getting RBE2 AESA radar with the Rafale with the power output of around 10kW-12kW with each trm rated higher(15W)than the americans supplied. Does the su57 has AESA at current ,if it has then some one do supply the proper image of the same. Side lobe radars are not meant to get lock or increase the fov,with such small array it would be a miracle if they even get more gain to even track targets at distances,their best known feature is to maintain a continous lock after the front radar has locked the target and target is maneuvering to evade the lock.
Far as i know the published range is 220+kms for 5m2 and could track 100+ targets on air with 8+lock for missiles,what does N036 has and under developed product with numerous delays,will russians ever adopt their aesa on their fighter aircrafts,how many russian fighters are flying with russian made aesa radar,does russians have even matured the miniaturised trm. So by last year many systems were not developed but within an year they all are developed. Su57 is only superior in size wt and payload,it neither superior in situational awareness,nor in sensors(bulky underperforming senors doesnt make it superior)...Had it been in any the IAF officials who kept a watch on the program couldnt have dragged their feet in 2018 after the careful study of the program and risk... ....
By the way do answer why Russkies dont operate any fighter aircraft with AESA despite their tall claims in the same field.

 

[Neptune]

What mind youre talking about? do you want us to believe that the test planes were flown by the squadron level pilots to bomb a target in a combat zone(though not a threat to fighters anymore)as a part of proof of capability,give us a break,we will send a letter to mod and will ask to use tejas lsps to bomb next balakot type strikes for us.....

I will give you a break for being ignorant. Fact the SU-57 was filmed at Khmeimim Air Base. I will even go one step further and and show satellite images from a third party showing the aircraft was in-fact in Syria:

Here is the Russian MOD confirming the aircraft hit targets over Syria:

A close up:

The Rafale's safran m88 is more modern in terms of modularity,life span,fuel efficiency and most probably the metallurgy,also the russian engines perform short of their claimed performance in ISP.

You literally just made all that up. You have zero to proof of any kind to support your claim. All we know about the izdeliye 30 is that its far more efficient and powerful then the AL-41 or AL-31. The izdeliye 30 will be 3 decades newer then the M88, so its hard to believe it will have any advantage anywhere. Do you think the Russian are taking this long to develop an engine that will only be marginally better then an AL-31? Who needs to get real?

From a standpoints or thrust/by-pass ratio alone the izdeliye 30 will have many strategic advantages such as supercruise and higher altitude. This means the aircraft can stay in a fight longer, have the kinetic advantages of outrunning missiles without need for afterburners and operate high above enemy defenses which also allow the aircraft weapons to achieve greater range. India could have used these advantages against Pakistan earlier this year.

The IR signature is "relatively" low compared to the russians and as far as i know ,Rafale has better IR supression measures than the AL41.

Again do you have anything to back your claims with. You have literally just made claims without proof this entire time. What is this “better” IR suppression the M88 has? Don’t expect to make random claims and not be challenged.

Su57 doesnt have any stealthy engines and it cant sustain supercruise(even if it achieves supercruise).

The SU-57 can supercruise even with the current engine. As for you other claim:

India is getting RBE2 AESA radar with the Rafale with the power output of around 10kW-12kW with each trm rated higher(15W)than the americans supplied. Does the su57 has AESA at current ,if it has then some one do supply the proper image of the same.

The SU-57 has had an AESA since 2011 which was first installed on the T-50-3. There is no images with the random off, all we have is video/images of the radar being tested in labs; however are you suggesting that Russians have lied about having AESA or they sent an SU-57 into combat without radar? Amazing....

Side lobe radars are not meant to get lock or increase the fov,with such small array it would be a miracle if they even get more gain to even track targets at distances,their best known feature is to maintain a continous lock after the front radar has locked the target and target is maneuvering to evade the lock.

The SU-57 has the worlds first side lobe radars on a fighter. How would you of all people know what they can or cannot do? About radar size, active radar homing missiles have radar too but the side lobe radar of the SU-57 is too small? The side lobe radar which the prototypes have is around 358 TR modules are but are “small” according to you. Little is known about the radar but I do know one thing. The Rafale doesn’t have anything similar, and yes it is an advantage otherwise the Russians would not bother with the added cost, weight and development cost. Why wasn’t some much resources and money on something that won’t have large advantages?

Far as i know the published range is 220+kms for 5m2 and could track 100+ targets on air with 8+lock for missiles,what does N036 has and under developed product with numerous delays,will russians ever adopt their aesa on their fighter aircrafts,how many russian fighters are flying with russian made aesa radar,does russians have even matured the miniaturised trm.

I have not seen Thales publish any of the figures you posted and still they fall short of the N036 is 2/3 categories. At this point you are just throwing mud in hopes something sticks, you are randomly diverted the topic into delays and other such nonsense. Because we know the French have never had any delays in anything and their products have perfect reliably (sarcasm).

So by last year many systems were not developed but within an year they all are developed.

What do you know about the progress of those “systems”? You have some information that the public does not know?

Su57 is only superior in size wt and payload

And far superior in range, altitude, kinetic performance, low speed maneuvers, probably high speed maneuvers, longer range missiles, greater radar coverage and smaller RCS. It’s cute though that you think the little Rafale has a smaller RCS, range, altitude, etc. Very cute.

Let me pull the table out from underneath and ask you to name one thing the Rafale does better then the SU-57. Let’s not use speculation but known facts. Does it have any advantages? I can spare you the bandwith and say no.

,it neither superior in situational awareness,nor in sensors(bulky underperforming senors doesnt make it superior)...Had it been in any the IAF officials who kept a watch on the program couldnt have dragged their feet in 2018 after the careful study of the program and risk... ....

How do you know the those sensors “underperform”? Russia has been tight lipped about the performance of any of the sensors. The SU-57 appears to have 360 degree IR sensors. The Rafale has nothing comparable, nor does it have anything near the radar coverage of the SU-57. Even the SU-35 detected the F-22s IR signature over Syria. Russian electric warfare systems also jammed US electric warfare aircraft and drones over Syria so their avionics/electrics warfare capabilities are better then you give them credit for:


F-22 IR tracked by SU-35.

https://georgetownsecuritystudiesreview.org/2019/06/26/the-russian-edge-in-electronic-warfare/amp/


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna863931


https://amp.businessinsider.com/syria-electronic-warfare-us-planes-disabled-2018-4


Here are some of the functions and sensors. Many of these don’t exist on Rafale...sorry

By the way do answer why Russkies dont operate any fighter aircraft with AESA despite their tall claims in the same field.

What tall claims have they made? What specifically are you talking about? They have operational AESA in the SU-57 and they have many other land, sea and air platforms in which either have operational AESA or it’s under development. Again you have no arguments at all you just pivot the conversation and throw mud. You have only made erroneous claims.

 

[Armand2REP]

I will give you a break for being ignorant. Fact the SU-57 was filmed at Khmeimim Air Base. I will even go one step further and and show satellite images from a third party showing the aircraft was in-fact in Syria:

You do realise that they only sent them there for a few days and they only conducted 10 flights between two aircraft. It was a photo-op to say they are combat proven.

 

[Immanuel]

You do realise that they only sent them there for a few days and they only conducted 10 flights between two aircraft. It was a photo-op to say they are combat proven.

Much like what France did by sending Rafale to Afghan in the early days, came back with one Rafale missing in the sea

Niggas can't even be good hypocrites

 

[Neptune]

You do realise that they only sent them there for a few days and they only conducted 10 flights between two aircraft. It was a photo-op to say they are combat proven.

SU-57’s have been deployed to Syria at least two times. Russia has sent hundreds of weapons systems to Syria for testing to see how they operate in adverse climates and under heavy electric warfare conditions to improve systems and see how they work. They did the same thing in 2008 with the SU-34 over Georgia.

By your logic we can claim the same thing about the Rafale in any conflict.

 

[Neptune]

To avoid added stress on the wings it is not activated until a high AoA or g limit is reached beyond the normal range of its control surfaces. To do so would greatly reduce the life of the airframe over time.

Wrong. The TVC are an active flight control system. They keep the aircraft stable and airborne in the same way horizontal stabilizers do by using fly-by-wire. There is no more stress on the airframe using TVC as no TVC under normal flight conditions. TVC allow an aircraft to perform higher AOA, it allows for shorter takeoffs and landings and its generally safer.

 

[Armand2REP]

Much like what France did by sending Rafale to Afghan in the early days, came back with one Rafale missing in the sea

Niggas can't even be good hypocrites

10 sorties vs 1000s... not the same.

 

[Armand2REP]

Wrong. The TVC are an active flight control system. They keep the aircraft stable and airborne in the same way horizontal stabilizers do by using fly-by-wire. There is no more stress on the airframe using TVC as no TVC under normal flight conditions. TVC allow an aircraft to perform higher AOA, it allows for shorter takeoffs and landings and its generally safer.

Of course changing the direction of thrust increases stress on the wings. As you can see during afterburner take-off the TVC is not engaged.

 

[Neptune]

10 sorties vs 1000s... not the same.

It does not matter how many sorties it conducted compared to the Rafale. The only thing that matters is that it has performed combat missions.

 

[Armand2REP]

It does not matter how many sorties it conducted compared to the Rafale. The only thing that matters is that it has performed combat missions.

That statement just shows your bias... of course it matters.

 

[Neptune]

That statement just shows your bias... of course it matters.

You are one to talk. Is there a universal accepted amount of sorties that need to be flown to count as combat effective? And again this is an SU-57 thread, not sure why Rafale fanboys are here trying to convince everyone the Rafale is better then the SU-57.

Of course changing the direction of thrust increases stress on the wings. As you can see during afterburner take-off the TVC is not engaged.

This is just a poor attempt at trying to argue. The F-22 in the video did have its TVC working. It’s that it was just a very gradual smooth takeoff which you purposely chose because it would not show the dramatic authoritative yaw as one would see in and expect in a vertical climb.




In the video TVC are noticeably deflecting up, they are perfectly in line with the horizontal stabilizers.

 

[FGFAPilot1]

What is the road-map ahead for the Su-57 program with regards to the RuAF and the IAF?

 

[Neptune]

What is the road-map ahead for the Su-57 program with regards to the RuAF and the IAF?

An Indian delegation was inspecting an SU-57 at MAKS quite different and refined from the earlier models. The Indians will likely, in my opinion, order the SU-57 once the second stage engines are available. The fiasco with Pakistan just solidifies the need for an SU-57 type aircraft. It’s not that the SU-30 can’t handle the Pakistani Air Force but rather that the SU-57 would dominate the enemy much more effectively and the Rafale is too few in numbers and will take a while to fully fulfill the contract.

 

[Armand2REP]

What is the road-map ahead for the Su-57 program with regards to the RuAF and the IAF?

There is no road-map for the IAF. They ditched it years ago.