Sukhoi PAK FA

[asianobserve]

Birds of the same feathers...

 

[Lancer]

If Turkey gets its hands on the Su-57, that's pretty much it for India and stealth aircraft until the (hitherto imaginary) AMCA is delivered.

 

[ladder]

If Turkey gets its hands on the Su-57, that's pretty much it for India and stealth aircraft until the (hitherto imaginary) AMCA is delivered.

Turkey will most probably buy Su 57.
I would not like to equate Turkey's buy with India. I am not favouring that India should buy Su 57, but did Russia make the Su 57 to exclusively export to India? Or is Russia under obligation to not sell to countries which are not favorable to India.
Can include S 400 deal for comparison.

 

[IndianHawk]

If Turkey gets its hands on the Su-57, that's pretty much it for India and stealth aircraft until the (hitherto imaginary) AMCA is delivered.

If india ever bought su57 it will become su57mki .
The only thing common with other su57 will be frame and engine everything else will be changed from Russian to Indian and western.

Su57 MKI will have .
Indian aesa radar . Indian mission computer .
Indian aesa based ew suite with sensor fusion.
Indian rwr , Indian Maws , Indian irst .

All these things are already on su30mki or being developed for su30MKI and mwf/amca.

Whatever is not ready will probably be sourced from France / Israel etc.

Su57 MKI will be the most capable su57 just like su30 MKI was the most capable su30 untill su35 came years later.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Lancer]

If india ever bought su57 it will become su57mki .
The only thing common with other su57 will be frame and engine everything else will be changed from Russian to Indian and western.

Su57 MKI will have .
Indian aesa radar . Indian mission computer .
Indian aesa based ew suite with sensor fusion.
Indian rwr , Indian Maws , Indian irst .

All these things are already on su30mki or being developed for su30MKI and mwf/amca.

Whatever is not ready will probably be sourced from France / Israel etc.

Su57 MKI will be the most capable su57 just like su30 MKI was the most capable su30 untill su35 came years later.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

True, that would be the saving grace I guess; deal extensively with the Israelis (and French to an extent as well) to completely customize and tailor our SU-57's. Although I'm sure that (Espc dealing with Israelis) would ruffle a lot of feathers among the Russians. They don't even want us to integrate foreign BVR's on Su-30's.

 

[IndianHawk]

True, that would be the saving grace I guess; deal extensively with the Israelis (and French to an extent as well) to completely customize and tailor our SU-57's. Although I'm sure that (Espc dealing with Israelis) would ruffle a lot of feathers among the Russians. They don't even want us to integrate foreign BVR's on Su-30's.

Su30 deal was done in 1990s . It has Indian mission computer but Russian radar ( bars) hence Russia objection to foreign bvr but Indian missile are fine.

Su57 deal now India will demand Indian Uttam aesa ( if not available for initial batch then surely for following batches ) once radar and mission computer are both Indian India can add any weaponary be it Indian , Israeli or European.

Good thing is that once sfdr comes along in next 5-7 years India won't need any foreign bvr .

Also Russia will allow derby integration with su30mki eventually as objection by Russia only acts as a warning for India against su57.

If Russian are serious about selling su57 they must be flexible with Indian demands on su30mki upgrade.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[bhramos]

The Su-57 can carry 4 KH-59mk2 cruise missiles inside Weapons Bay. The first look gives me the impression that it can carry 4 Som-J.

 

[bhramos]

Su-57 in the dynamics.

Photo: Evgeny Biyatov.

 

[arya]

SU30 MKI is a old elephant , he cannot stand against J20 thats truth we have to understand , after
up grdation under super sukio su30 MKI will become close to J20 but still behind .

But few idiots still think su30 mki can beat j20 or f22 , f35 . Guys understand su30mki was good but now technology is far advance .

Our all airforce are asking from govt about new fighter planes from last 18+ years but get only 36 rafale .

We should go for at least 36- 72 su57 fighter planes under make in india deal

 

[IndianHawk]

SU30 MKI is a old elephant , he cannot stand against J20 thats truth we have to understand , after
up grdation under super sukio su30 MKI will become close to J20 but still behind .

But few idiots still think su30 mki can beat j20 or f22 , f35 . Guys understand su30mki was good but now technology is far advance .

Our all airforce are asking from govt about new fighter planes from last 18+ years but get only 36 rafale .

We should go for at least 36- 72 su57 fighter planes under make in india deal

What technology is there in j20 that is proven??
It's engine are inadequate and not stealth. It's aesa is useless and it's sensors which are heart and soul of Stealth are all decades behind western or even Russian tech.

Just answer one question why did Chinese buy su35 when they have j20 ?

 

[arya]

What technology is there in j20 that is proven??
It's engine are inadequate and not stealth. It's aesa is useless and it's sensors which are heart and soul of Stealth are all decades behind western or even Russian tech.

Just answer one question why did Chinese buy su35 when they have j20 ?

So we should sit down because j20 didn't got any certificate from you . i hope i am not talking with arvind kejriwal .

china bought su35 from Russia and did his reverse engg and made J20 and also a new more advance plane then j20 .

 

[arya]

@IndianHawk

the same question as per your logic if su30 mki is world best planes then why russia made su35 ,su57 ,etc

no matter we like or not but su30 mki is not abe to protect our current need of security threat from china

 

[IndianHawk]

@IndianHawk

the same question as per your logic if su30 mki is world best planes then why russia made su35 ,su57 ,etc

no matter we like or not but su30 mki is not abe to protect our current need of security threat from china

When did I say su30 is best? You are the one insisting j20 is a threat so please explain what are the actual tech in j20?

 

[arya]

When did I say su30 is best? You are the one insisting j20 is a threat so please explain what are the actual tech in j20?

You should do your homework by yourself , spend some time on j20 you will get your answer.

well i hope u know china moved further ahead j20 they are making new one while you are talking on j20 . China is moving step by step , they are making more then three AC & making his navy more strong .

 

[IndianHawk]

You should do your homework by yourself , spend some time on j20 you will get your answer.

well i hope u know china moved further ahead j20 they are making new one while you are talking on j20 . China is moving step by step , they are making more then three AC & making his navy more strong .

I think you should read up on how chinese naval jet keeps crashing. Lol

 

[IndianHawk]

So we should sit down because j20 didn't got any certificate from you . i hope i am not talking with arvind kejriwal .

china bought su35 from Russia and did his reverse engg and made J20 and also a new more advance plane then j20 .

Wrong su35 were brought after j20 was already designed. They bought su35 because j20 is way too premature.

You are talking like kejriwal . How are chinese making advance plane when j20 is immature.

J20 doesn't have adequate engine . Chinese themselves admit it. And in Avionics and sensors it's decades behind of Rafale. It's a lemon. It will be a Challenge in 15-20 years. Today it's just a huge target.

 

[Bleh]

We should go for at least 36- 72 su57 fighter planes under make in india deal

We should abusing do no such thing... even the import lover India armed forces rejected it. That's all I need to know about Su-57's tech & quality.

So we should sit down because j20 didn't got any certificate from you . i hope i am not talking with arvind kejriwal

No we should concentrate fully on AMCA & try to have first flight by planned 2025 without further delays...I hope I'm not talking with an import pimp.

 

[Frontrunner]

IAF is pretty much serious about SU57E considering the fact it is the only viable 5th gen choice sans AMCA (arrives untill 2030-2035).. however IAF will only consider SU57 when it's inducted in RusAF in considerable nos.. with izdeliye 180 engines incorporated and it's current specs are improved.. as depicted by IAF chief here

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...alth-jet-after-it-enters-russian-service.html

Considering advent of Chinese 5th gen aircrafts nd a possible sale of Shenyang J-31 to PAF (assuming soft loans aided sale of 2 sqaundrons of J-31 to PAF a la 8 S-20 submarines to pak navy) IAF will have to look for a 5th gen aircraft in same timeframe (2025) to maintain edge on adversary..

One can't simply scorn off or downplay Chinese 5th gen aircrafts blinded by patriotism.. Chinese have made serious headways in aircraft manufacturing nd required tech.. instead with only jey engine tech in limbo.. however with huge R&D nd thriving aerospace industry.. they will eventually master the tech of jet engines..

We can't act like porkies behaving like ostrich downplaying Chinese advancement in military tech front.. Chinese 5th gen threats are pretty much real.. nd i am sure IAF is well conscious of the challenges ahead..

 

[IndianHawk]

IAF is pretty much serious about SU57E considering the fact it is the only viable 5th gen choice sans AMCA (arrives untill 2030-2035).. however IAF will only consider SU57 when it's inducted in RusAF in considerable nos.. with izdeliye 180 engines incorporated and it's current specs are improved.. as depicted by IAF chief here

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...alth-jet-after-it-enters-russian-service.html

Considering advent of Chinese 5th gen aircrafts nd a possible sale of Shenyang J-31 to PAF (assuming soft loans aided sale of 2 sqaundrons of J-31 to PAF a la 8 S-20 submarines to pak navy) IAF will have to look for a 5th gen aircraft in same timeframe (2025) to maintain edge on adversary..

One can't simply scorn off or downplay Chinese 5th gen aircrafts blinded by patriotism.. Chinese have made serious headways in aircraft manufacturing nd required tech.. instead with only jey engine tech in limbo.. however with huge R&D nd thriving aerospace industry.. they will eventually master the tech of jet engines..

We can't act like porkies behaving like ostrich downplaying Chinese advancement in military tech front.. Chinese 5th gen threats are pretty much real.. nd i am sure IAF is well conscious of the challenges ahead..

Why don't you then trust the professionals of IAF when they say j20 is visible on su30 MKI radar.

Is it because iaf doesn't know about stealth ?

Similarly why don't you believe that rafale is leagues ahead of j20 when IAF believes it is enough to deal with j20.

Chinese have a huge manufacturing industry which is obviously ahead of India . So they build more airframes faster . But what goes inside airframe ? What is the sophistication of Chinese aesa which paki refused to use against IAF?

What is the actual performance of Chinese engine which paki again refuse to use in junk17?

What level is Chinese irst and Maws and rwr compared to Indian / Israeli and French systems which India uses/ will use?

How sophisticated are chinese missile compared to meteor / derby ER / asraam/ mica which India uses / will use and astra has to benchmark against?

What level is Chinese sensor fusion compared to rafale ? Or even su35?

How much infrared immission j20 Russian engine generat compared to m88 or gef404/ f414?
How will that immission impact j20 stealth when against powerful irst of rafale and su30 upgrade?

One must not underestimate enemy but one must never overestimate enemy either!

Unless Chinese close the gap on above questions j20 remains a dud. Why do you think the IAF which rejected su57 is going gaga for rafale ? Because just building a geometric airframe is not stealth.

Stealth is geomatric shape + powerful yet passive sensors + sensor fusion + long range bvr + maintainable coatings + network integration.

Rafale is far ahead of j20 on most of the matrix accept geomatric shape ( for which it compensate with active waveform cancellation)

It took USA 30-40 year to make stealth properly operational with f35. ( F22 was and is a maintenance nightmare) yet somehow Chinese will have it magically ready in few years? Nope it will take 2 decades for j20 to reach anywhere near f35 in terms of stealth.

Same goes for AMCA . That is why we are seeking western technology because on our own we will have to test everything again and it will take decades but if we can get Western sensors and weaponary including better engines we can mature AMCA faster.

Let's ask actual technical questions rather than throwing around words like stealth and advanced etc!

 

[IndianHawk]

IAF is pretty much serious about SU57E considering the fact it is the only viable 5th gen choice sans AMCA (arrives untill 2030-2035).. however IAF will only consider SU57 when it's inducted in RusAF in considerable nos.. with izdeliye 180 engines incorporated and it's current specs are improved.. as depicted by IAF chief here

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...alth-jet-after-it-enters-russian-service.html

Considering advent of Chinese 5th gen aircrafts nd a possible sale of Shenyang J-31 to PAF (assuming soft loans aided sale of 2 sqaundrons of J-31 to PAF a la 8 S-20 submarines to pak navy) IAF will have to look for a 5th gen aircraft in same timeframe (2025) to maintain edge on adversary..

One can't simply scorn off or downplay Chinese 5th gen aircrafts blinded by patriotism.. Chinese have made serious headways in aircraft manufacturing nd required tech.. instead with only jey engine tech in limbo.. however with huge R&D nd thriving aerospace industry.. they will eventually master the tech of jet engines..

We can't act like porkies behaving like ostrich downplaying Chinese advancement in military tech front.. Chinese 5th gen threats are pretty much real.. nd i am sure IAF is well conscious of the challenges ahead..

Regarding Pakistan getting stealth jet!

The most costly aspect of Stealth jet is not development but maintenance of jet. Ram coatings fall apart. Composite airframe with Sawtooth connection requires extensive care and overhaul. Not to mention the maintenance of an stealth engine ( which china doesn't even have)

The sheer maintenance cost of a true stealth fighter will bankrupt Pakistan. These costs are one of the reasons Russian didn't go full stealth on su57 and are ordering only 76 ( that too over a decade).

And if it's cheap to buy and operate it ain't stealth .