Sukhoi PAK FA

[IndianHawk]

#Myanmar Could Be the First Export Client for #Russia's New SU-57 Fighters - Reports

This seems desperate. Myanmar doesn't have money for something as expensive as su57.

 

[Neptune]

Su30mki has Indian mission computer. India won't rely on Russian mission computer no matter what it buys now. India also had own rwr in su30 with Israeli lightening pod you know why ? Because they were better than anything Russia could offer. What makes you think twenty years later india is behind when Indian economy has gone double the size of Russian??

Russian avionics have gone a long way in the past 10-15 years or so. Russia has much better avionics that are more favorable to its foreign counterparts today then it did when India was starting the SU-30mki program. Russia never even had a dedicated targeting pods until recently. With the SU-35 and SU-57 programs and the money that came with them, the avionics Russia has developed has made the SU-30MKI avionics, including some western systems look ancient. You are comparing Russian avionics of the 1990s and the disarray of its defense industries and poor military funding to its competitors. Things have changed vastly.


As for Israel, Israel does make good systems but are vastly overrated. One of their F-16 got blown out of the sky by a 50 year old Soviet missile over Syria. So all those uber avionics and jammers did not save the aircraft. Same thing happened to a Turkish F-4 over Syria equipped with Israel avionics. There is a reason Israeli aircraft fly low and far from SAMs to avoid getting shot down and usually use very long standoff munitions to avoid another embarrassment. The case with the Israel F-16, it climbed too high and payed the price. Case in point you put too much faith in Israel systems while understanding Russian ones.

Russia has been behind in Avionics and electronics and India is catching up to western tech. It might be a shock to you but not to anybody else who is watching the growth trajectory of India. Russian have been talking about aesa without a single operational aircraft with it for years in the meantime Indian have caught up to testing indegenios aesa on an lsp and a business jet simultaneously .

India makes better radars then Russia? Get real you are delusional. Russia has two AESA radars for fighters, at least one for AWACS, and many ground and sea bases AESA radars as well as hundreds of sophisticated weapons programs. India can’t complete nor can even France for that matter. If Russian electrics were so poor Turkey, China and India would not buy aircraft and air defenses from Russia, all the while the US has threatened those countries not to buy Russian systems because they pose such a threat. I don’t see the US threatening countries not to purchase the might JF-17 blunder do you?

Why would India copy Russian sensor fusion when India has access to much more capable sensors ( aesa radar , irst , Maws from France , Israel and Indian products) and can develop superior sensor fusion based on superior more capable sensors.

What makes you think anything India has including technology from France and Israel is better then what Russia has on the SU-57? And just because India has access to something doesn’t mean it can make even an equivalent, by that token Pakistan must be able to make an F-16 and all the technology that comes with it if they pray hard enough. Moreover, Russia has been using its own avionics on Israeli searcher UAVs and have been using their own HUDs instead of French ones on their latest Sukhois. According to your logic since Russia uses its own systems instead of the westerns ones which they replaced they must be better then Israeli and French ones right? Or does that logic only work for your arguments?

Let’s talk the S-70 since it’s part of the SU-57 program and relevant to the topic. It relays information back to the SU-57 for greater situational awareness. Not France nor Israel has this kind of sensor sharing or capabilities. Only the US is working on a similar program which is considered as close as ‘6th generation’ as today’s technology allows.



The level of sensor fusion, data sharing as well as weapons delivery and autonomy integrated between the S-70 and SU-57 is like nothing France or Israeli or India have.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-vehicle-fly-with-an-su-57-for-the-first-time

As the Russian Ministry of Defense itself has said, the UCAVs could operate ahead of their manned counterparts, feeding the pilots information from their sensors to give them a broader and more complete picture of the battlespace.


That information could be used to cue very long-range weapons, allowing the Su-57s to engage targets, in the air and on the ground, while still staying as far as possible from enemy air defenses and hostile fighters.


........The S-70 will be a "universal baseline platform for carrying advanced air-launched weapons, onboard reconnaissance systems and other equipment, which will allow constantly expanding the drone’s functional capabilities

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-70.htm

The drone is highly autonomous thanks to its AI brain. What’s more, some of its technology and ammunition have been borrowed from the Su-57 fifth-generation fighter. “The Okhotnik’s arsenal includes air-to-surface missiles and an array of bombs (glide and operator-controlled) that will not be suspended from the wings, but hidden inside the body to reduce visibility on enemy radar,” Professor Vadim Kozyulin of the Russian Academy of Military Sciences told Russia Beyond. They potentially include the OFZAB-500 high-fragmentation high-explosive incendiary bomb and the ODAB-500PMV fuel-air-explosive bomb, which were used during the campaign in Syria.

“This is not just one of the first strike drones built in Russia, but a platform for testing sixth-generation fighter technologies

You do realise India is far ahead in computing , algorithms and coding than Russia which are necessary for sensor fusion!!

You do realize that...no it’s not. And actually Russia has some of the best programmers in the world. Russia is ranked #2 while India is not even on the list:



https://www.freelancinggig.com/blog...tries-with-the-best-computer-programmers/amp/





Russia has jammed the latest US electrics warfare aircraft over Syria including drones and broke encrypted links. They have done the same to Ukrainians. Did India do anything similar to Pakistan in February? Must be those shit Russian electrics right?



https://amp.businessinsider.com/syria-electronic-warfare-us-planes-disabled-2018-4

General Raymond Thomas, the commander of US Special Operations Command (USSOCOM), revealed that Syria has become the frontline of electronic warfare and US planes are being disabled.

"Right now in Syria we are operating in the most aggressive EW environment on the planet from our adversaries," Thomas told a crowd of some 2,000 "intelligence professionals" at the GEOINT Symposium on Tuesday, according to Breaking Defense.

"They are testing us everyday, knocking our communications down, disabling our EC-130s, etcetera," he added.

https://georgetownsecuritystudiesreview.org/2019/06/26/the-russian-edge-in-electronic-warfare/amp/

Remarkably, it is Russia that presents some of the stiffest competition, with increasing agreement among experts in the field that Russia has taken a huge, and somewhat unexpected, leap forward in its EW capabilities.

Just for fun:


https://thenextweb.com/insider/2017...mputers-based-indigenous-elbrus-8s-processor/

Russian state-owned technology Ruselectronics has demonstrated the first computers running its own domestic Elbrus-8S silicon.

The Elbrus-8S packs eight cores, and is manufactured using a 28 nanometer process. In comparison, the current-generation Intel Kaby Lake processors use a 14-nanometer process

This is what fanboyism does . Blinds one to development happening all around . Perhaps that is one reason why Russia is stagnant in economy.

Indian domestic r&d spending is probably already surpassing what Russia could spend on its research but India has advantages of open collaboration and competition from western system pushing it further ahead.

No wonder iaf didn't bite the su57 hype.

Exactly correct, you yourself are a fanboy, a western one. You are also spouting a bunch of nonsense not related to the topic. Russia still has a large economy and why does that matter? How on earth does.....I don’t know, Israel develop good avionics if it’s economy is so small? By that token Mexico should be a powerhouse of technology

 

[IndianHawk]

Russian avionics have gone a long way in the past 10-15 years or so. Russia has much better avionics that are more favorable to its foreign counterparts today then it did when India was starting the SU-30mki program. Russia never even had a dedicated targeting pods until recently. With the SU-35 and SU-57 programs and the money that came with them, the avionics Russia has developed has made the SU-30MKI avionics, including some western systems look ancient. You are comparing Russian avionics of the 1990s and the disarray of its defense industries and poor military funding to its competitors. Things have changed vastly.


As for Israel, Israel does make good systems but are vastly overrated. One of their F-16 got blown out of the sky by a 50 year old Soviet missile over Syria. So all those uber avionics and jammers did not save the aircraft. Same thing happened to a Turkish F-4 over Syria equipped with Israel avionics. There is a reason Israeli aircraft fly low and far from SAMs to avoid getting shot down and usually use very long standoff munitions to avoid another embarrassment. The case with the Israel F-16, it climbed too high and payed the price. Case in point you put too much faith in Israel systems while understanding Russian ones.










India makes better radars then Russia? Get real you are delusional. Russia has two AESA radars for fighters, at least one for AWACS, and many ground and sea bases AESA radars as well as hundreds of sophisticated weapons programs. India can’t complete nor can even France for that matter. If Russian electrics were so poor Turkey, China and India would not buy aircraft and air defenses from Russia, all the while the US has threatened those countries not to buy Russian systems because they pose such a threat. I don’t see the US threatening countries not to purchase the might JF-17 blunder do you?









What makes you think anything India has including technology from France and Israel is better then what Russia has on the SU-57? And just because India has access to something doesn’t mean it can make even an equivalent, by that token Pakistan must be able to make an F-16 and all the technology that comes with it if they pray hard enough. Moreover, Russia has been using its own avionics on Israeli searcher UAVs and have been using their own HUDs instead of French ones on their latest Sukhois. According to your logic since Russia uses its own systems instead of the westerns ones which they replaced they must be better then Israeli and French ones right? Or does that logic only work for your arguments?

Let’s talk the S-70 since it’s part of the SU-57 program and relevant to the topic. It relays information back to the SU-57 for greater situational awareness. Not France nor Israel has this kind of sensor sharing or capabilities. Only the US is working on a similar program which is considered as close as ‘6th generation’ as today’s technology allows.



The level of sensor fusion, data sharing as well as weapons delivery and autonomy integrated between the S-70 and SU-57 is like nothing France or Israeli or India have.


View attachment 39273

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-vehicle-fly-with-an-su-57-for-the-first-time









https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-70.htm













You do realize that...no it’s not. And actually Russia has some of the best programmers in the world. Russia is ranked #2 while India is not even on the list:



https://www.freelancinggig.com/blog...tries-with-the-best-computer-programmers/amp/





Russia has jammed the latest US electrics warfare aircraft over Syria including drones and broke encrypted links. They have done the same to Ukrainians. Did India do anything similar to Pakistan in February? Must be those shit Russian electrics right?



https://amp.businessinsider.com/syria-electronic-warfare-us-planes-disabled-2018-4








https://georgetownsecuritystudiesreview.org/2019/06/26/the-russian-edge-in-electronic-warfare/amp/






Just for fun:


https://thenextweb.com/insider/2017...mputers-based-indigenous-elbrus-8s-processor/











Exactly correct, you yourself are a fanboy, a western one. You are also spouting a bunch of nonsense not related to the topic. Russia still has a large economy and why does that matter? How on earth does.....I don’t know, Israel develop good avionics if it’s economy is so small? By that token Mexico should be a powerhouse of technology

True to your form. You didn't read any point and just ranted. Where is an operational Russian aesa?? Why doesn't Russian su30 upgrade consists of an aesa if aesa is ready??

When did I say India made better radars I said Russia hasn't operationalized any aesa while India caught up to aesa prototype stage!!

Don't they teach comprehensive skills at Russian fanboy schools. Lol. Btw India has gan based ground radars in the advanced stages of development and soon will follow with airborne models.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Russian avionics have gone a long way in the past 10-15 years or so. Russia has much better avionics that are more favorable to its foreign counterparts today then it did when India was starting the SU-30mki program. Russia never even had a dedicated targeting pods until recently. With the SU-35 and SU-57 programs and the money that came with them, the avionics Russia has developed has made the SU-30MKI avionics, including some western systems look ancient. You are comparing Russian avionics of the 1990s and the disarray of its defense industries and poor military funding to its competitors. Things have changed vastly.


As for Israel, Israel does make good systems but are vastly overrated. One of their F-16 got blown out of the sky by a 50 year old Soviet missile over Syria. So all those uber avionics and jammers did not save the aircraft. Same thing happened to a Turkish F-4 over Syria equipped with Israel avionics. There is a reason Israeli aircraft fly low and far from SAMs to avoid getting shot down and usually use very long standoff munitions to avoid another embarrassment. The case with the Israel F-16, it climbed too high and payed the price. Case in point you put too much faith in Israel systems while understanding Russian ones.










India makes better radars then Russia? Get real you are delusional. Russia has two AESA radars for fighters, at least one for AWACS, and many ground and sea bases AESA radars as well as hundreds of sophisticated weapons programs. India can’t complete nor can even France for that matter. If Russian electrics were so poor Turkey, China and India would not buy aircraft and air defenses from Russia, all the while the US has threatened those countries not to buy Russian systems because they pose such a threat. I don’t see the US threatening countries not to purchase the might JF-17 blunder do you?









What makes you think anything India has including technology from France and Israel is better then what Russia has on the SU-57? And just because India has access to something doesn’t mean it can make even an equivalent, by that token Pakistan must be able to make an F-16 and all the technology that comes with it if they pray hard enough. Moreover, Russia has been using its own avionics on Israeli searcher UAVs and have been using their own HUDs instead of French ones on their latest Sukhois. According to your logic since Russia uses its own systems instead of the westerns ones which they replaced they must be better then Israeli and French ones right? Or does that logic only work for your arguments?

Let’s talk the S-70 since it’s part of the SU-57 program and relevant to the topic. It relays information back to the SU-57 for greater situational awareness. Not France nor Israel has this kind of sensor sharing or capabilities. Only the US is working on a similar program which is considered as close as ‘6th generation’ as today’s technology allows.



The level of sensor fusion, data sharing as well as weapons delivery and autonomy integrated between the S-70 and SU-57 is like nothing France or Israeli or India have.


View attachment 39273

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-vehicle-fly-with-an-su-57-for-the-first-time









https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-70.htm













You do realize that...no it’s not. And actually Russia has some of the best programmers in the world. Russia is ranked #2 while India is not even on the list:



https://www.freelancinggig.com/blog...tries-with-the-best-computer-programmers/amp/





Russia has jammed the latest US electrics warfare aircraft over Syria including drones and broke encrypted links. They have done the same to Ukrainians. Did India do anything similar to Pakistan in February? Must be those shit Russian electrics right?



https://amp.businessinsider.com/syria-electronic-warfare-us-planes-disabled-2018-4








https://georgetownsecuritystudiesreview.org/2019/06/26/the-russian-edge-in-electronic-warfare/amp/






Just for fun:


https://thenextweb.com/insider/2017...mputers-based-indigenous-elbrus-8s-processor/











Exactly correct, you yourself are a fanboy, a western one. You are also spouting a bunch of nonsense not related to the topic. Russia still has a large economy and why does that matter? How on earth does.....I don’t know, Israel develop good avionics if it’s economy is so small? By that token Mexico should be a powerhouse of technology

Just simple question
Why india replaced sonar of kilo class if Russians sonars were good?
Although I do respect Russia weapons and they are proven but still seekers of russia origin are being replaced and they are good OTHERWISE OUR IAF would not had taken interest in astra weapon.
Regarding Israelis I don't know what happened.

 

[Neptune]

Just simple question
Why india replaced sonar of kilo class if Russians sonars were good?
Although I do respect Russia weapons and they are proven but still seekers of russia origin are being replaced and they are good OTHERWISE OUR IAF would not had taken interest in astra weapon.
Regarding Israelis I don't know what happened.

Don’t know. Never hear of it, Kilo is an old design. All of India’s Kilos are from the early to mid 1980s. All of their systems are outdated.

 

[Neptune]

True to your form. You didn't read any point and just ranted.

I literally quoted every claim you had by replying to it individually and then giving multiple sources. You, on the other hand, have conveniently, ignored many of my rebuttals that rebuked your claims. The only one ranting was you.

Where is an operational Russian aesa?? Why doesn't Russian su30 upgrade consists of an aesa if aesa is ready??

The NO36 of the SU-57

The MRK-411 of the TU-214R

Vega Primier A-100

Nebo


And may more including from Phazatron. Fighter sized AESA were also just recently ready so there naturally would be no SU-30s with the radar. They are also more expensive.

When did I say India made better radars I said Russia hasn't operationalized any aesa while India caught up to aesa prototype stage!!

What does that even mean? India made a prototype AESA? Okay, Russia has been operating AESAs for years just not in fighters, up until recently. They also have hundreds of other projects and programs.

Don't they teach comprehensive skills at Russian fanboy schools. Lol. Btw India has gan based ground radars in the advanced stages of development and soon will follow with airborne models.

And so what? You were raving Russian systems suck, I posted links were Russia jammed US electrics warfare aircraft, furthermore I showed how Russian missiles, some of which were old, downed modern Israeli and Turkish aircraft over Syria. I then pointed out the high degree of sensor fusion in the SU-57 and you simply insulted me multiple times and accused me having compression problems when you can’t compile a comprehensive argument or articulate your point with facts.

It’s also comical how you ignored the fact that Russia is throwing out Israeli avionics in its seacher drones and using its own HUD in newer Sukhois. They also are not using French thermals anymore on there newer tanks. What’s with people like you derailing the thread? We get it, you don’t like the SU-57, you also know virtual nothing about it either.

 

[IndianHawk]

I literally quoted every claim you had by replying to it individually and then giving multiple sources. You, on the other hand, have conveniently, ignored many of my rebuttals that rebuked your claims. The only one ranting was you.







The NO36 of the SU-57

The MRK-411 of the TU-214R

Vega Primier A-100

Nebo


And may more including from Phazatron. Fighter sized AESA were also just recently ready so there naturally would be no SU-30s with the radar. They are also more expensive.







What does that even mean? India made a prototype AESA? Okay, Russia has been operating AESAs for years just not in fighters, up until recently. They also have hundreds of other projects and programs.








And so what? You were raving Russian systems suck, I posted links were Russia jammed US electrics warfare aircraft, furthermore I showed how Russian missiles, some of which were old, downed modern Israeli and Turkish aircraft over Syria. I then pointed out the high degree of sensor fusion in the SU-57 and you simply insulted me multiple times and accused me having compression problems when you can’t compile a comprehensive argument or articulate your point with facts.

It’s also comical how you ignored the fact that Russia is throwing out Israeli avionics in its seacher drones and using its own HUD in newer Sukhois. They also are not using French thermals anymore on there newer tanks. What’s with people like you derailing the thread? We get it, you don’t like the SU-57, you also know virtual nothing about it either.

Again ranting without facts. No operational Russian fighter jets have an aesa. Su30 upgrade that Russia did and is offering India has no aesa because it is simply not ready.

India also have a whole lot of aesa ground radars operating . And even more programs in development than what you could count.

Yes a lot of Russian systems suck . India was forced to develop own jammer pods for su30 because Russian one sap518 cuts through aerodynamic performance. India is forced to develop rwr , Maws and irst for su30mki because Russian offered immature/ inadequate solutions than what India could develop locally.

Why is su30 aesa more expensive than su57 aesa?? Your just bullshiting.:bs:

Yeah right Russia is throwing out older Israeli and French gear because only now Russia can match avionics that Russia and Israel fielded 10-15 years ago. You think that is a bragging point lmao.

You still don't get . Su57 sensor don't match the capabilities of Western sensors. So how will it's sensor fusion beat that!!

You think I'm criticizing su57 lmao. If I were to do that I won't need Avionics I would. Start with lack of geomatric stealth , exposed rivets and underpowered engine.

I'm only pointing out avionics is not strong suit of Russia that why India always tried to source asuch as western Avionics as it could and now rely more and more on Indian Avionics .

But you can't accept simple facts because you have a chip on your shoulder. You probably won't accept that even Russian engine are inferior to western engine in both efficiency , service life and maintainance despite a whole lot of literature out there to prove just that with countless evidence and testimonials. Live within your lunacy but don't expect an Indian forum to accept your bullshit .

 

[Flying Dagger]

Again ranting without facts. No operational Russian fighter jets have an aesa. Su30 upgrade that Russia did and is offering India has no aesa because it is simply not ready.

India also have a whole lot of aesa ground radars operating . And even more programs in development than what you could count.

Yes a lot of Russian systems suck . India was forced to develop own jammer pods for su30 because Russian one sap518 cuts through aerodynamic performance. India is forced to develop rwr , Maws and irst for su30mki because Russian offered immature/ inadequate solutions than what India could develop locally.

Why is su30 aesa more expensive than su57 aesa?? Your just bullshiting.:bs:

Yeah right Russia is throwing out older Israeli and French gear because only now Russia can match avionics that Russia and Israel fielded 10-15 years ago. You think that is a bragging point lmao.

You still don't get . Su57 sensor don't match the capabilities of Western sensors. So how will it's sensor fusion beat that!!

You think I'm criticizing su57 lmao. If I were to do that I won't need Avionics I would. Start with lack of geomatric stealth , exposed rivets and underpowered engine.

I'm only pointing out avionics is not strong suit of Russia that why India always tried to source asuch as western Avionics as it could and now rely more and more on Indian Avionics .

But you can't accept simple facts because you have a chip on your shoulder. You probably won't accept that even Russian engine are inferior to western engine in both efficiency , service life and maintainance despite a whole lot of literature out there to prove just that with countless evidence and testimonials. Live within your lunacy but don't expect an Indian forum to accept your bullshit .

One of the reason Russia isn't going with AESA on Sukhoi is they don't have funds to upgrade their own. And they aren't willing to part away with Su 57 AESA yet and may be it isn't mature enough either. Their plan is simple let IAF pay for another pesa and then later offer them AESA making them pay twice. Here we need to bargain and news like Uttam AESA may be fielded on Sukhoi is all about giving weight to our bargaining power.

Su 57 is indeed better than any flanker but Rafale has several other benefits apart from being technologically superior to it.

We can only speculate if we are going with our general chitter chatter. IAF is pretty professional AF and they evaluated and dumped Su 57 based FGFA project. That I think is the best judgement we can get about the capability of that platform.

 

[Neptune]

Again ranting without facts. No operational Russian fighter jets have an aesa.

Read my entire responses. I’m tired of arguing with someone that clearly refuses to read. Back to the above quote, what did I just say? This is what I said, exact quote:


“Fighter sized AESA were also just recently ready so there naturally would be no SU-30s with the radar”.



Looks like you are the one that has no facts, and obvious reading comprehension problems. You have done this multiple times, I say one thing, you don’t read, repeat the same thing I previously said and then call me names. You should reserve the insults for yourself.

India also have a whole lot of aesa ground radars operating . And even more programs in development than what you could count.

Why do care how many ground AESA India is operating? This is an SU-57 thread. You mentioned Russians had no AESA, I corrected you by providing many examples including ground based ones, now you are trying to do a dick measuring content in which case you will lose.

Yes a lot of Russian systems suck . India was forced to develop own jammer pods for su30 because Russian one sap518 cuts through aerodynamic performance. India is forced to develop rwr , Maws and irst for su30mki because Russian offered immature/ inadequate solutions than what India could develop locally.

The SU-30s Russia offered India was 1990s technology, at the time Russian avionics were not as good compared to western avionics verses Russian avionics today. For you to boast that India improved on a 15+ to 20+ year old technology of 1990s heritage is silly.



India had older Russian avionics, they of course can build something better if they just replace ancient microprocessors with modern, faster and more reliable ones. This is nothing new, some of the western systems Russia also has are obsolete, and Russia started using its own systems.

I am also confused, if Russia systems suck so badly why is everyone from India to NATO members buying crap Russian technology? Even the Chinese despite emerging as one of the powerhouses of computers and microprocessors are buying Russian aircraft such as SU-35.

Why is su30 aesa more expensive than su57 aesa?? Your just bullshiting.:bs:

When did mention the price difference between the two? I never did, I only said AESA is more expensive then PESA. You again have reading comprehension problems and are so hell bent on arguing that you fail to read my responses.

Yeah right Russia is throwing out older Israeli and French gear because only now Russia can match avionics that Russia and Israel fielded 10-15 years ago. You think that is a bragging point lmao.

The irony is that, I can and have said the same thing. You are bragging about India replacing 1990s vintage systems-hence that is your reasoning for poor Russian aviation. Your precious Israeli system are also overrated. They don’t seem to work as well in real life as advertised, like I said all those avionics didn’t help that Israeli F-16 or F-4 Terminator get knocked out of the sky with inferior Russian garbage. Russia Is just struggling trying to complete with this super Israeli propeller driven technology.

You still don't get . Su57 sensor don't match the capabilities of Western sensors. So how will it's sensor fusion beat that!!

Russia has said almost nothing about the SU-57 sensors so you have nothing but hot air. The SU-57 and S-70 autonomy and ‘wingman’ roles shows a very high level of sensor fusion and data-sharing. Nothing that France or Israelis have, only the Americans have a similar project.

You think I'm criticizing su57 lmao. If I were to do that I won't need Avionics I would. Start with lack of geomatric stealth , exposed rivets and underpowered engine.

We have another stealth expert here. All aircraft have rivets, the latest SU-57 have far fewer then the earlier prototypes. But of course you don’t care, you have a constant habit of taking the oldest of whatever Russia made and pandering it as the latest thing they made. As for engines, the current engines have around 33,000lbs thrust, the final variant will have around 40,000lbs thrust. The Rafale has 16,000lbs thrust but of course you rave about how great Rafale is

As for rivets, plenty of them:

I'm only pointing out avionics is not strong suit of Russia that why India always tried to source asuch as western Avionics as it could and now rely more and more on Indian Avionics .

As I said the SU-30 avionics were an old design, there was a lot that could have been improved, and at the time (1990s) Russian avionics were not the best. You seem to be stuck in the past. Even Americans admit Russia’s electronic warfare has caught them off guard. The latest US electrics warfare aircraft have been “disabled” and jammed over Syria. Russia has even jammed GPS signals and broken encryptions. Apart from that the S-70 is borderline ‘6th’ generation technology. For as technology inferior as you claim Russia to be they somehow seem to do well.

 

[AVAST]

Read my entire responses. I’m tired of arguing with someone that clearly refuses to read. Back to the above quote, what did I just say? This is what I said, exact quote:


“Fighter sized AESA were also just recently ready so there naturally would be no SU-30s with the radar”.



Looks like you are the one that has no facts, and obvious reading comprehension problems. You have done this multiple times, I say one thing, you don’t read, repeat the same thing I previously said and then call me names. You should reserve the insults for yourself.









Why do care how many ground AESA India is operating? This is an SU-57 thread. You mentioned Russians had no AESA, I corrected you by providing many examples including ground based ones, now you are trying to do a dick measuring content in which case you will lose.










The SU-30s Russia offered India was 1990s technology, at the time Russian avionics were not as good compared to western avionics verses Russian avionics today. For you to boast that India improved on a 15+ to 20+ year old technology of 1990s heritage is silly.



India had older Russian avionics, they of course can build something better if they just replace ancient microprocessors with modern, faster and more reliable ones. This is nothing new, some of the western systems Russia also has are obsolete, and Russia started using its own systems.

I am also confused, if Russia systems suck so badly why is everyone from India to NATO members buying crap Russian technology? Even the Chinese despite emerging as one of the powerhouses of computers and microprocessors are buying Russian aircraft such as SU-35.











When did mention the price difference between the two? I never did, I only said AESA is more expensive then PESA. You again have reading comprehension problems and are so hell bent on arguing that you fail to read my responses.











The irony is that, I can and have said the same thing. You are bragging about India replacing 1990s vintage systems-hence that is your reasoning for poor Russian aviation. Your precious Israeli system are also overrated. They don’t seem to work as well in real life as advertised, like I said all those avionics didn’t help that Israeli F-16 or F-4 Terminator get knocked out of the sky with inferior Russian garbage. Russia Is just struggling trying to complete with this super Israeli propeller driven technology.












Russia has said almost nothing about the SU-57 sensors so you have nothing but hot air. The SU-57 and S-70 autonomy and ‘wingman’ roles shows a very high level of sensor fusion and data-sharing. Nothing that France or Israelis have, only the Americans have a similar project.








We have another stealth expert here. All aircraft have rivets, the latest SU-57 have far fewer then the earlier prototypes. But of course you don’t care, you have a constant habit of taking the oldest of whatever Russia made and pandering it as the latest thing they made. As for engines, the current engines have around 33,000lbs thrust, the final variant will have around 40,000lbs thrust. The Rafale has 16,000lbs thrust but of course you rave about how great Rafale is

As for rivets, plenty of them:

View attachment 39277








As I said the SU-30 avionics were an old design, there was a lot that could have been improved, and at the time (1990s) Russian avionics were not the best. You seem to be stuck in the past. Even Americans admit Russia’s electronic warfare has caught them off guard. The latest US electrics warfare aircraft have been “disabled” and jammed over Syria. Russia has even jammed GPS signals and broken encryptions. Apart from that the S-70 is borderline ‘6th’ generation technology. For as technology inferior as you claim Russia to be they somehow seem to do well.

That pic shows removable panels with torx screws . Composite structures are being bonded now a days.

 

[Neptune]

One of the reason Russia isn't going with AESA on Sukhoi is they don't have funds to upgrade their own. And they aren't willing to part away with Su 57 AESA yet and may be it isn't mature enough either. Their plan is simple let IAF pay for another pesa and then later offer them AESA making them pay twice. Here we need to bargain and news like Uttam AESA may be fielded on Sukhoi is all about giving weight to our bargaining power.

Su 57 is indeed better than any flanker but Rafale has several other benefits apart from being technologically superior to it.

We can only speculate if we are going with our general chitter chatter. IAF is pretty professional AF and they evaluated and dumped Su 57 based FGFA project. That I think is the best judgement we can get about the capability of that platform.

The Rafale is a very advanced and capable air but how is Rafale technologically superior to SU-57? Did you carefully inspect and test both aircraft? The Rafale literally doesn’t have half the sensors or capabilities of the SU-57 and is far inferior in many respects. It’s avionics is also about a decade older. The French have nothing equivalent to the S-70 which is a ‘stealth’ and ‘wingman’ to SU-57, the drone is capable of penetrating heavily defended airspace while autonomously feeding battlefield information back to the SU-57 as well as aiding with reconnaissance and strike missions.


As for Indian evaluations, they evaluated an unfinished product that was evolving. It’s not even clear how much access India got due to security concerns. The problem with the SU-57 at the time of Indian ‘evaluations’ was that the SU-57 and its engines were still years away and that the Indians had little to offer and Russia was not willing to reinvent to wheel for India’s needs or wants.

As for India “dumping” yes it dumped a lot of aircraft such as Typhoon and Super Hornets which have some of the best radars on earth. Those aircraft were obviously very capable, more capable then the Tejas but India is developing Tejas instead so your argument is invalid. The problem with India is bureaucracy and a monopoly by HAL, cost is also a factor so to say India turned down the SU-57 therefore its bad or Rafale is better is silly.

 

[Neptune]

That pic shows removable panels with torx screws . Composite structures are being bonded now a days.

I used to work in the defense industry. I worked with engineers that designed carbon composites for certain craft. I know very well what those are and how everything works.

 

[AVAST]

I used to work in the defense industry. I worked with engineers that designed carbon composites for certain craft. I know very well what those are and how everything works.

Doesn't seem like it. You can't even differentiate between screws and rivets. If you know everything so let me ask you a question. What type of torx screws are they ?
Google won't help btw.

 

[Flying Dagger]

How is Rafale technologically superior to SU-57? Did you carefully inspect and test both aircraft? The Rafale literally doesn’t have half the sensors or capabilities of the SU-57 and is far inferior in many respects. It’s avionics is also about a decade older. The French have nothing equivalent to the S-70 which is a ‘stealth’ and ‘wingman’ to SU-57, the drone is capable of penetrating heavily defended airspace while autonomously feeding battlefield information back to the SU-57 as well as aiding with reconnaissance and strike missions.


As for Indian evaluations, they evaluated an unfinished product that was evolving. It’s not even clear how much access India got due to security concerns. The problem with the SU-57 at the time of Indian ‘evaluations’ was that the SU-57 and its engines were still years away and that the Indians had little to offer and Russia was not willing to reinvent to wheel for India’s needs or wants.

As for India “dumping” yes it dumped a lot of aircraft such as Typhoon and Super Hornets which have some of the best radars on earth. Those aircraft were obviously very capable, more capable then the Tejas but India is developing Tejas instead so your argument is invalid. The problem with India is bureaucracy and a monopoly by HAL, cost is also a factor so to say India turned down the SU-57 therefore its bad or Rafale is better is silly.

So you inspected both of them ?

IAF didnt said we are going to induct Tejas because it's the best fighter in the world nor they proclaim it as raptor killer like Russia does with its mig 29/35 fighter jet. Infact they refused to get it in for a very long time until it became refined with time.

Now that drone isn't out yet and you have declared it as James bond in the sky . and So you think Rafale isn't capable of having two way communication and data can't be fed to it via another aircraft? Wake up a drone pass on information similar to another aircraft can .

Su 57 is a plane that may become good in future while Rafale is The plane which is best among its peers right now.

IAF has used both French and Russian products and the reason they wanted more Mirage instead of Mig 29s tells the whole tale .

And about the cost factor. Well the reason we buy Russian equipments is they are less costly to acquire and quantity have its own quality . So we didn't went for su 57 due to cost is absurd.

You can continue with your shagufas.

 

[Neptune]

Doesn't seem like it. You can't even differentiate between screws and rivets. If you know everything so let me ask you a question. What type of torx screws are they ?
Google won't help btw.

Those are hex screws. SU-57 does not have rivets that I can spot, another member here claimed that it did. I simply posted a picture of an F-22 showing its access panel and for simplicity sake I called it rivets. Obviously it’s impossible to not have access panels on an aircraft since maintenance and basic servicing is inevitable.

As for F-22, I never worked on it or was involved in any aircraft but I did work for a company that built military equipment that used composites for other none conventional craft. Every company has its secrets and uses different types of composite. As well as different bonding methods.


The screws and fasteners we used were more simple then you may make it out to be. A counter sink drilled through the composite and a flat hex screw with epoxy was inserted if it was a permanent seal, if not there was an adapter that fit plush with the countersink cavity, hex screw were then tightened.

 

[Neptune]

So you inspected both of them ?

No but I’m not the one claims the SU-57 has technologically superior avionics, you however and a few on here have claimed the Rafale is technology super pawa. I simply said that the SU-57 has newer avionics and that the Rafale lacks many of the features the has SU-57 and is far inferior in situational awareness and battles pace integration since the Rafale does not have side lobe radar or get battles pace informed fed from a low observable drone that is autonomous and can carry out strikes.


I’m not seeing where the Rafale is superior, even if, for arguments sake Rafale has technologically better radar, its size, lack of other sensors and larger RCS would not make it the superior aircraft.

IAF didnt said we are going to induct Tejas because it's the best fighter in the world nor they proclaim it as raptor killer like Russia does with its mig 29/35 fighter jet. Infact they refused to get it in for a very long time until it became refined with time.

That is what I said. The SU-57/pak-fa had a long way to go when India was offered into the program. It’s still an evolving program. There are many other reasons why India may have opted out, it could have been bureaucracy, pressure from HAL or outside companies, it could have been different requirements or disputes with work-share or technology transfer.

You said India evaluated the SU-57 and “dumped it”, you then continued and said: “That I think is the best judgement we can get about the capability of that platform.”



Very rash and blank statement without knowing the facts. India has dumped many of the best aircraft in the world, there are many reasons in which we will never fully know why. Just because for the time being India opted out of the FGFA program does not make the SU-57 a bad aircraft.

Now that drone isn't out yet and you have declared it as James bond in the sky . and So you think Rafale isn't capable of having two way communication and data can't be fed to it via another aircraft? Wake up a drone pass on information similar to another aircraft can .

Of course data can be fed to the Rafale through other aircraft and AWACS. The SU-57 is different in that the S-70 will sent battle pace information autonomously and fully digitally while the S-70 will perform reconnaissance and deep strike while remaining undetected. This gives the SU-57 an unmatched level of the battle-space while remaining undetected and having better odds of survivability. An AWACS can’t do any of those things besides feed information.

Su 57 is a plane that may become good in future while Rafale is The plane which is best among its peers right now.

That is what I said. The Rafale is an excellent fighter and has better avionics then the SU-30MKI. Both aircraft compliment each other and with the future upgrades to MKI the Indian Air Force will have a quantum advantage over Pakistan. The SU-57 as I said is evolving and the only real peers it has is the F-35, J-20 and F-22 all those aircraft are unique compared to legacy aircraft. There is a very good reason Typhoon operators now want the F-35.

IAF has used both French and Russian products and the reason they wanted more Mirage instead of Mig 29s tells the whole tale .

No it doesn’t again, you keep using numbers at your convenience. First SU-57 bad because India order zero, then Mig-29 bad because India have more Mirage, then Rafale is amazing but we only ordered 36. If capability was the case India would not order so many Tejas. There are a lot of reasons why one aircraft is chosen over the other in larger numbers such as purchase price, maintenance costs, parts availability, weapons availability, and capabilities just to name a few.

You can continue with your shagufas.

I don’t know what a “shagufas” but you need to calm down. You and a few other member have came into the SU-57 thread and derailed it. You guys can get your fancy off for the Rafale in its own thread.

 

[Steven Rogers]

The Rafale is a very advanced and capable air but how is Rafale technologically superior to SU-57? Did you carefully inspect and test both aircraft? The Rafale literally doesn’t have half the sensors or capabilities of the SU-57 and is far inferior in many respects. It’s avionics is also about a decade older. The French have nothing equivalent to the S-70 which is a ‘stealth’ and ‘wingman’ to SU-57, the drone is capable of penetrating heavily defended airspace while autonomously feeding battlefield information back to the SU-57 as well as aiding with reconnaissance and strike missions.


As for Indian evaluations, they evaluated an unfinished product that was evolving. It’s not even clear how much access India got due to security concerns. The problem with the SU-57 at the time of Indian ‘evaluations’ was that the SU-57 and its engines were still years away and that the Indians had little to offer and Russia was not willing to reinvent to wheel for India’s needs or wants.

As for India “dumping” yes it dumped a lot of aircraft such as Typhoon and Super Hornets which have some of the best radars on earth. Those aircraft were obviously very capable, more capable then the Tejas but India is developing Tejas instead so your argument is invalid. The problem with India is bureaucracy and a monopoly by HAL, cost is also a factor so to say India turned down the SU-57 therefore its bad or Rafale is better is silly.

I have already responded regarding all things you repeated and as far as s70 goes, french have nEURON.

 

[Neptune]

I have already responded regarding all things you repeated and as far as s70 goes, french have nEURON.

Neuron is a dead project. It’s small size was also a very limiting factor in its capabilities and range. Keep this thread related to the SU-57.

Neuron and S-70 size comparison:

 

[Steven Rogers]

Neuron is a dead project. It’s small size was also a very limiting factor in its capabilities and range. Keep this thread related to the SU-57.

Neuron and S-70 size comparison:

View attachment 39297

nEURON is a part of FCAS program which is based on integration of sensors though its a TD and the original FCAS will be bigger ...comparing size is not call....

 

[WolfPack86]

#Nigeria is discussing with #Russia the possibility of buying Su-57 fighters, and is also interested in helicopters, tanks and reconnaissance equipment, said Nigerian Ambassador to Russia Steve Davis Ugba.