Sukhoi PAK FA

gadeshi

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Any update on FGFA deal anyone.
@gadeshi
Also given the usa latest sanctions might make Russia more accommodating to Indian demands maybe???
Those sanctions are not against Russia, but against EU to force them buy more slow, low quality and quadruple more expensive US LNG in favour of Russian cheap and high quality gas :)
So no accomodations.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk
 

Prashant12

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Indo-Russian Gen-5 fighter gets green light; experts find “no conflict with indigenous AMCA fighter”

The decks are clear for the ministry of defence (MoD) to sanction the long-delayed Indo-Russian project to jointly develop a cutting-edge “Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft” (FGFA).

Business Standard learns that an Experts Group, headed by Air Marshal (Retired) S Varthaman, has submitted a report on July 7, finding that the FGFA project would be beneficial to India.

After MoD bureaucrats objected to the FGFA project on the grounds that it might duplicate, or hinder, the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), former defence minister Manohar Parrikar set up the five-person Experts Committee to consider this question.

After deliberating for six months, the Expert Committee has ruled there are no conflict lines between the FGFA and AMCA. In fact, the technological expertise that Indian engineers and designers would gain from working with Russian experts would feed positively into the AMCA project.

Meanwhile, the Defence R&D Organisation, through its subordinate Aeronautical Development Agency, can continue designing the entirely indigenous AMCA – based on its experience in developing the Tejas light fighter.

New Delhi and Moscow signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) a decade ago, in October 2007 for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to partner Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau in developing and manufacturing the FGFA. Between 2010-23, HAL and Sukhoi spent $295 million each on a “Preliminary Design” phase.

Now, the two sides are required to sign an “R&D Contract”, which the MoD told parliament on July 5, 2013, would “define the total scope; the work share and responsibilities of each side; and the financial implications of the programme.”

Reliable sources tell Business Standard that India and Russia have negotiated a draft R&D Contract, which commits both sides to spending $6.1 billion on the project –$3.05 billion each.

While India has dragged its heels for a decade since signing the IGA, Sukhoi Design Bureau has already designed the basic flying platform, named Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or “Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation” (PAK-FA).

At least six PAK-FA prototypes are already participating in flight-testing and flying displays, such as at the recent Paris Air Show. The draft R&D Contract commits Sukhoi to build the eighth, ninth and tenth prototypes for flight-testing in HAL, by Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots.

That means that, if the R&D Contract is signed this year, IAF pilots could be testing FGFA prototypes in Indian skies by 2020.

HAL chief, T Suvarna Raju, declined to comment on the Experts Group report, but told Business Standard that an early conclusion of the R&D Contract would allow HAL to play an important role in developing the PAK-FA flying platform into a combat effective FGFA for the IAF.

“If we join now, we will still get a significant part of the work share, thanks to delays in the PAK-FA project. HAL would co-design the avionics, including navigation systems, radars and weapon aiming devices. This is the heart of the fighter’s combat ability”, says Raju.

Delays in the PAK-FA’s development are attributable partly to hitches in designing a new, powerful engine that would let the fighter “super-cruise”, or travel at supersonic speeds on “dry thrust”, without engaging its fuel-guzzling afterburners. While engine-maker NPO Saturn has struggled to perfect a secretive new engine, dubbed the Izdeliye 30, the PAK-FA has been flying with the relatively underpowered AL-41FI engine – an uprated version of the Sukhoi-30MKI’s AL-31 engine.

However, at the Paris Air Show in July, Russian designers have claimed that the PAK-FA’s new engine would be ready to fly by December.

For the IAF, the FGFA project opens up the assured development of heavy fighters that will succeed the Sukhoi-30MKI, many of which have already completed 15-17 years in operational service. In the medium fighter category, the IAF would have two Rafale squadrons, possibly three if a follow up contract is signed for an extra squadron; and also three upgraded Mirage-2000 squadrons. In the light fighter category, there will be four squadrons of Tejas Mark 1A, and another light fighter for which procurement has been initiated. Amongst the contenders are the Swedish Saab Gripen E, and Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Block 70.


The FGFA is equally crucial for HAL’s Nashik plant, which is now building the last 35 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters of the 272 fighters contracted by the IAF. At a build rate of 12 fighters per year, the Sukhoi-30MKI production line will be idle by 2020. It remains unclear how many FGFA units the IAF will eventually buy, but for HAL Nashik, a production order is essential.
 

IndianHawk

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Indo-Russian Gen-5 fighter gets green light; experts find “no conflict with indigenous AMCA fighter”

The decks are clear for the ministry of defence (MoD) to sanction the long-delayed Indo-Russian project to jointly develop a cutting-edge “Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft” (FGFA).

Business Standard learns that an Experts Group, headed by Air Marshal (Retired) S Varthaman, has submitted a report on July 7, finding that the FGFA project would be beneficial to India.

After MoD bureaucrats objected to the FGFA project on the grounds that it might duplicate, or hinder, the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), former defence minister Manohar Parrikar set up the five-person Experts Committee to consider this question.

After deliberating for six months, the Expert Committee has ruled there are no conflict lines between the FGFA and AMCA. In fact, the technological expertise that Indian engineers and designers would gain from working with Russian experts would feed positively into the AMCA project.

Meanwhile, the Defence R&D Organisation, through its subordinate Aeronautical Development Agency, can continue designing the entirely indigenous AMCA – based on its experience in developing the Tejas light fighter.

New Delhi and Moscow signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) a decade ago, in October 2007 for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to partner Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau in developing and manufacturing the FGFA. Between 2010-23, HAL and Sukhoi spent $295 million each on a “Preliminary Design” phase.

Now, the two sides are required to sign an “R&D Contract”, which the MoD told parliament on July 5, 2013, would “define the total scope; the work share and responsibilities of each side; and the financial implications of the programme.”

Reliable sources tell Business Standard that India and Russia have negotiated a draft R&D Contract, which commits both sides to spending $6.1 billion on the project –$3.05 billion each.

While India has dragged its heels for a decade since signing the IGA, Sukhoi Design Bureau has already designed the basic flying platform, named Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or “Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation” (PAK-FA).

At least six PAK-FA prototypes are already participating in flight-testing and flying displays, such as at the recent Paris Air Show. The draft R&D Contract commits Sukhoi to build the eighth, ninth and tenth prototypes for flight-testing in HAL, by Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots.

That means that, if the R&D Contract is signed this year, IAF pilots could be testing FGFA prototypes in Indian skies by 2020.

HAL chief, T Suvarna Raju, declined to comment on the Experts Group report, but told Business Standard that an early conclusion of the R&D Contract would allow HAL to play an important role in developing the PAK-FA flying platform into a combat effective FGFA for the IAF.

“If we join now, we will still get a significant part of the work share, thanks to delays in the PAK-FA project. HAL would co-design the avionics, including navigation systems, radars and weapon aiming devices. This is the heart of the fighter’s combat ability”, says Raju.

Delays in the PAK-FA’s development are attributable partly to hitches in designing a new, powerful engine that would let the fighter “super-cruise”, or travel at supersonic speeds on “dry thrust”, without engaging its fuel-guzzling afterburners. While engine-maker NPO Saturn has struggled to perfect a secretive new engine, dubbed the Izdeliye 30, the PAK-FA has been flying with the relatively underpowered AL-41FI engine – an uprated version of the Sukhoi-30MKI’s AL-31 engine.

However, at the Paris Air Show in July, Russian designers have claimed that the PAK-FA’s new engine would be ready to fly by December.

For the IAF, the FGFA project opens up the assured development of heavy fighters that will succeed the Sukhoi-30MKI, many of which have already completed 15-17 years in operational service. In the medium fighter category, the IAF would have two Rafale squadrons, possibly three if a follow up contract is signed for an extra squadron; and also three upgraded Mirage-2000 squadrons. In the light fighter category, there will be four squadrons of Tejas Mark 1A, and another light fighter for which procurement has been initiated. Amongst the contenders are the Swedish Saab Gripen E, and Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Block 70.


The FGFA is equally crucial for HAL’s Nashik plant, which is now building the last 35 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters of the 272 fighters contracted by the IAF. At a build rate of 12 fighters per year, the Sukhoi-30MKI production line will be idle by 2020. It remains unclear how many FGFA units the IAF will eventually buy, but for HAL Nashik, a production order is essential.
No details on tech transfer. No numbers. No cost analysis. HAL dreaming on co-development :hehe:

Another screwdriver giri project. There goes 3 billion $$. Shame.
 

Khagesh

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Reliable sources tell Business Standard that India and Russia have negotiated a draft R&D Contract, which commits both sides to spending $6.1 billion on the project –$3.05 billion each.
First it was 6 billion then it was 4.7 billion now it is 3 billion. Soon it will be nothing.

Instead we will Faking In India the vaunted F-35s and Rafales.

Just when the chinese would be perfecting their J-20s and J-31s.
 

Vijyes

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First it was 6 billion then it was 4.7 billion now it is 3 billion. Soon it will be nothing.

Instead we will Faking In India the vaunted F-35s and Rafales.

Just when the chinese would be perfecting their J-20s and J-31s.
We would rather make an indigenous AMCA than invest wasteful money in FGFA. Modi is against FGFA. I felt it since the beginning. Unless Russia agrees to share high end technology, India is unlikely to go for FGFA. We simply don't need it. For war, especially nuclear ones or major wars, what we need are tens of thousands of aircrafts, not mere 100-200

Unless there is any major news, don't go gaga and jump around. Don't think of anything other than AMCA for now
 

Khagesh

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We would rather make an indigenous AMCA than invest wasteful money in FGFA. Modi is against FGFA. I felt it since the beginning. Unless Russia agrees to share high end technology, India is unlikely to go for FGFA. We simply don't need it. For war, especially nuclear ones or major wars, what we need are tens of thousands of aircrafts, not mere 100-200

Unless there is any major news, don't go gaga and jump around. Don't think of anything other than AMCA for now
Kya NATO ko bhi attack karna hai Modi ji ney?
 

Vijyes

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Kya NATO ko bhi attack karna hai Modi ji ney?
Hohoho! If you have nothing to speak, don't speak. NATO is a piece if junk. Just see how they fall apart in next 20 years. I can't tell more.
 

Est22SF

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My humble request to all please ignore please ignore people like vijyes. Just don't reply if they keep on spamming without facts. I come here daily to get news. It's painful and sheer time waste to scroll through bullshit posts of 3 pages with no actual information. It degrades the quality of the forum.
 

TPFscopes

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No details on tech transfer. No numbers. No cost analysis. HAL dreaming on co-development :hehe:

Another screwdriver giri project. There goes 3 billion $$. Shame.
Nothing will go in vain.
Screw-driving done in the past gives the ability and Capability to produce a jet on its own.
I can understand that it takes more time than usual but I also know that Something is better than nothing.
Right now, HAL is skilled enough and have facilities to absorb the ToT more precisely than they done in their past.
 

TPFscopes

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We simply don't need it.
FGFA will not going to replace any squadrons but just to fit in raised (new) squadrons from 33 to 45.
And IAF will go for up 125 number until Government won't intervene.
Also, more accurate numbers will be only disclosed only after the evaluation of FGFA.

For war, especially nuclear ones or major wars, what we need are tens of thousands of aircrafts, not mere 100-200
Bro, kabhi to thande dimag ka istemal Kiya kar.

10s of 1000s ?
Plz arrange funds for it ....
Good luck
 

IndianHawk

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Nothing will go in vain.
Screw-driving done in the past gives the ability and Capability to produce a jet on its own.
I can understand that it takes more time than usual but I also know that Something is better than nothing.
Right now, HAL is skilled enough and have facilities to absorb the ToT more precisely than they done in their past.
Depends upon what Russian might actually transfer in the name of tot. Previous history is not encouraging. Just 3-4 years ago they dismissed to allow more work share to HAL sighting HAL incapability. So what has changed in just 4 years .

Other than oil and sanctions drowning Russian economy nothing much is changed.
 

TPFscopes

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Depends upon what Russian might actually transfer in the name of tot. Previous history is not encouraging. Just 3-4 years ago they dismissed to allow more work share to HAL sighting HAL incapability. So what has changed in just 4 years .

Other than oil and sanctions drowning Russian economy nothing much is changed.
This is actually termed as stretegic discussions. And the present Indian government is quite good in strategic talks.

Moreover, oil &gas and Defense equipments are the main source of Russian income. And India is the top russian Defense equipments buyer.
 

TPFscopes

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PAK FA expected to have Su-57 as the official designation of the aircraft in service.

Citing an Air&Cosmos International Article by renowned aviation journalists Piotr Butowski and Antony Angrand, covering the MAKS 2017 Air Show, the PAK FA was stated to be designated as the Su-57 instead of the widely speculated Su-50.
 

IndianHawk

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And India is the top russian Defense equipments buyer.
And that is exactly what Russia wants it to remain. Hence we must not rely on this elusive TOT . Buy some planes outright and put rest of the budget in AMCA development. It is better to feed r&d in India now otherwise we will loose two decades again and will be looking for Russian TOT for 6th gen plane!!!

Let's poach Russian experts that will be significantly cheaper. Also poach some french too . And get them all to work with local talent to develop local solution for 5th gen technologies from shaping to radars to engines.
 

TPFscopes

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And that is exactly what Russia wants it to remain. Hence we must not rely on this elusive TOT . Buy some planes outright and put rest of the budget in AMCA development. It is better to feed r&d in India now otherwise we will loose two decades again and will be looking for Russian TOT for 6th gen plane!!!

Let's poach Russian experts that will be significantly cheaper. Also poach some french too . And get them all to work with local talent to develop local solution for 5th gen technologies from shaping to radars to engines.
In previous era, India didn't have wide range of options that is why we depend on russia but for now, India has a wide range of choices.
Hence, if Russia now have very limited friends in the region and India is at the top which has enormous amount of power ( skips China because it's also one of the contender of international power).
India already proved its friendship in the past . So now , if Russia want further friendship it has to favour India more than India's other friends ( like France, US, Sweden etc)
 

IndianHawk

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In previous era, India didn't have wide range of options that is why we depend on russia but for now, India has a wide range of choices.
Hence, if Russia now have very limited friends in the region and India is at the top which has enormous amount of power ( skips China because it's also one of the contender of international power).
India already proved its friendship in the past . So now , if Russia want further friendship it has to favour India more than India's other friends ( like France, US, Sweden etc)
Russia will share old technology not it's crown Jewel. Russian defense export value per year is about 12-15 billion dollars. India contributes about 1/3 of it. For 4-5 billion dollars annual revenue ( earnings might be 20%of this ) Russia won't share 5th gen technologies or s-400 type technology.

They would gladly keep us in the loop with more frigates, submarines , and permission to screw indegenious bolts in su30mki.
 

TPFscopes

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Russia will share old technology not it's crown Jewel. Russian defense export value per year is about 12-15 billion dollars. India contributes about 1/3 of it. For 4-5 billion dollars annual revenue ( earnings might be 20%of this ) Russia won't share 5th gen technologies or s-400 type technology.

They would gladly keep us in the loop with more frigates, submarines , and permission to screw indegenious bolts in su30mki.
I can't say more about s-400 but for FGFA , we will have good amount of ToT.
But it'll further depend on us that how much of ToT we scan absorb.

Su-30MKI is very badly negotiated deal but I think this will not be followed further specially under present Government.
 

IndianHawk

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https://sputniknews.com/military/201703101051455656-russian-indian-fifth-gen-fighter-dispute/

Here is gems from Russia.

Of course, this is a very delicate issue – both from the diplomatic and the military-technical perspective. If these are today's technologies, and we have next generation technologies in the wings, then it may be advisable to consider their transfer." Otherwise, the logic is that perhaps Moscow should hold off making the transfer.
prominent Russian military observer Viktor Litovkin is convinced that Delhi's ultimatum is just a bargaining tactic. India, he noted, "simply doesn't want to pay for a fifth-generation aircraft, and is coming up with all sorts of excuses. In fact, they are demanding that Russia give them all the technology for the plane, which can then be built in India's own plants. That is, they want ultra-modern equipment and technology for a hill of beans."

Litovkin stressed that Sukhoi need not concern themselves too much with the Indian side's demands, pointing out that Russia's Indian partners have always held to the tactic of bargaining for the lowest-possible price.

"Some time ago, they bought our aircraft carrier [the Baku, now known as the INS Vikramaditya] for the price of scrap metal," the expert recalled. They wanted us to make it into a super battle-ready warship. We explained that an aircraft carrier is an expensive combat system, and that it was impossible to acquire it for a red cent. They made a lot of noise about it, but ultimately ended up paying."
 

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