Sukhoi PAK FA

Krusty

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No man, it is not what you are thinking. My personal experience is that it is very frustrating when one does not read what one responds to and goes off on a tangent. It is very bad when it escalates to gratuitous slug-fest.
I had read what the post in its entirety. it was a semantic slip. I try consciously to stick to the topic and I think I still think I am on topic as far as the stealth discussion is concerned.

:daru:
 

Sunstersun

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If i were sitting in an f-22 which costs that much,i expect much more,if i am charged 6x-7x more then i expect more than that jet than a 50mn usd one like f-16.
F-16 can carry out the same mission as f-22 in an enemy airspace while still costing way less than that.

Plus the f-35(which is being called the best thing after raptor-i dont know how when it is running into so many problems with even as small issues like weight of pilot) loses to the f-16,i start to doubt it.

Well russian and chinese jets are more like improved and very much better versions of their past jets like mig-29's and su-27/30's.

A jet with a long range radar,LO design an ECM systems with data linking can carry out the same mission with same efficiency as the F-22 while still costing way less.

A su-pak-fa can be taken out by a rafale or EFT or an improved f-16,you dont need an F-22 raptor to do that.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way. The air missions in Syria are asymmetrical warfare. There aren't any modern air defenses or fighters so naturally the F-16 can do the job reasonably well compared to the F-22 or the F-35. The USA did not build the F-22 so it could bomb Syria.

Every single plane runs into small issues, delays and cost overruns, earlier I pointed to how everyone thought the F-16 was a disaster while it was still in development phase.

I've already gone over why dogfighting is a completely useless metric of measuring which plane would win in modern air combat, but the main reason the F-35 lost is the same as what happened with the F-4. The pilots were stuck in old way of thinking.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-vs-f-16-15-18-lost-beaten-flatley-comeback-2017-4

>A jet with a long range radar,LO design an ECM systems with data linking can carry out the same mission with same efficiency as the F-22 while still costing way less.

depends on the mission. f-16's will get destroyed en masse against the f-35 or f-22 as shown at red flag.

>A su-pak-fa can be taken out by a rafale or EFT or an improved f-16,you dont need an F-22 raptor to do that.

well we don't actually know that do we? and just because it "can," be taken out doesn't mean the efficiency is good.
 

Krusty

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I took your word on the syria mission thing because I assumed you did you research alas, you did not.

The F-22 was escorted because it wasn't performing an air superiority role, it was performing a ground strike.

>Speaking at a Pentagon press briefing, Army Lt. Gen. William Mayville, director of operations for the Joint Chiefs, confirmed the F-22 was used to strike an IS command-and-control facility on the ground in Raqqah using precision-guided munitions.

>Depending on loadout, the jet can carry six AIM-120 advanced, medium-range, air-to-air missiles or two AIM-120s and two GBU-32 joint direct-attack munitions for air-to-ground strikes. It also carries an internal 20mm gun and two AIM-9 Sidewinders in internal weapons bays.

So the F-22 without any anti air weapons was escorted. CALL THE PRESS THE F-22 SUCKS!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/23/syria-air-strikes-f-22-raptor/16105291/
You assume wrong. Although finally you are coming closer to the point....
F22 has pathetic payload capacity for a strike role compared to, say an F15 strike eagle... why, do you think the F22 despite being an air superiority platform (remember there are no F22s equivalent of 'strike eagle') was made to take a ground strike role despite the USAF having dedicated strike aircrafts stationed that could have been used? The USN also has their carrier stationed close with strike aircrafts. Or atleast, why weren't dedicated strike aircrafts used for the Mission leaving the F22 to perform the fighter escort role to which it is more suitable and indeed for the role which it was primarily developed? Again, the military planners surely didn't roll the dice to decide if the F22 would take the strike role or the fighter escort role.There should be a reason. What do you think it is?
 
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Sunstersun

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You assume wrong. Although finally you are coming closer to the point....
F22 has pathetic payload capacity for a strike role compared to, say an F15 strike eagle... why, do you think the F22 despite being an air superiority platform (remember there are no F22s equivalent of 'strike eagle') was made to take a ground strike role despite the USAF having dedicated strike aircrafts stationed that could have been used? Or atleast, why weren't dedicated strike aircrafts used for the Mission leaving the F22 to perform the fighter escort role to which it is more suitable and indeed for the role which it was primarily developed? Again, the military planners surely didn't roll the dice to decide if the F22 would take the strike role or the fighter escort role despite being more expensive tonrun There should be a reason. What do you think it is?
Because the F-22 has stealth and thus are capable of dealing with missile systems like the s-400 and s-300. Of course the F-22 has a pathetic payload, it's an air superiority fighter. Once the F-35 is fully operational the F-22 will never do ground missions again.

>The stealthy supersonically cruising air superiority fighters are the only fighters in the U.S. inventory that can safely fly within the engagement envelope of Russian S-400 and S300V4 surface-to-air missiles defense

>“The Russian missile systems are a big issue for our fourth gen platforms,” a senior U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor pilot told The National Interest. “We'd use our fifth gen assets to include fighters, bombers and missiles if required to penetrate and strike targets as required.”

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...over-syria-lockheed-martin-f-22-stealth-20110

But no, we have to believe a conspiracy theories.
 

pmaitra

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Apples and oranges.

Traditional aerodynamic designs have a lot of curves and are designed so as to reduce drag. This increases the signature.
upload_2017-6-7_2-18-9.jpeg


Stealth designs have a lot of straight lines so as to redirect reflected rays in some specific direction thus reducing signature, usually in the frontal direction. This increases drag, hence reduces payload.
upload_2017-6-7_2-19-5.jpeg
upload_2017-6-7_2-19-28.jpeg


One cannot have both.
 

Krusty

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Because the F-22 has stealth and thus are capable of dealing with missile systems like the s-400 and s-300. Of course the F-22 has a pathetic payload, it's an air superiority fighter. Once the F-35 is fully operational the F-22 will never do ground missions again.

>The stealthy supersonically cruising air superiority fighters are the only fighters in the U.S. inventory that can safely fly within the engagement envelope of Russian S-400 and S300V4 surface-to-air missiles defense

>“The Russian missile systems are a big issue for our fourth gen platforms,” a senior U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor pilot told The National Interest. “We'd use our fifth gen assets to include fighters, bombers and missiles if required to penetrate and strike targets as required.”

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...over-syria-lockheed-martin-f-22-stealth-20110

But no, we have to believe a conspiracy theories.
:doh: There were 4/4.5 gen aircrafts which flew alongside the F22 into the same airspace on escort role against the same air Defence you quote. That alone defeats the point of your entire post.
 

Krusty

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Apples and oranges.

Traditional aerodynamic designs have a lot of curves and are designed so as to reduce drag. This increases the signature.
View attachment 16534


Stealth designs have a lot of straight lines so as to redirect reflected rays in some specific direction thus reducing signature, usually in the frontal direction. This increases drag, hence reduces payload.
View attachment 16535 View attachment 16536

One cannot have both.
Sorry but who is this post directed to ? I'm confused
 

Sunstersun

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:doh: There were 4/4.5 gen aircrafts which flew alongside the F22 into the same airspace on escort role against the same air Defence you quote. That alone defeats the point of your entire post.
You actually make no sense at all. The F-22 was used on a strike mission, essentially it was a bomber. Even stealth bombers like the f-117 need escorts and those escorts are often fourth generation planes.

Just because you say something defeats the entire post doesn't actually make it reality.

Anyways this is getting off topic, the F-22 was used in a strike mission because it can safely deal with SAM sites that F-16/F-15 would struggle with, as a result it had no AA weapons, thus needed escorts.

The end.

Anymore analysis beyond that is reaching.
 

pmaitra

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Sorry but who is this post directed to ? I'm confused
Just for a perspective, not anyone in particular. Many of us have come to expect payloads like in traditional fighters.

Also, if one compares F-35 with PAK-FA, it is easy too notice that PAK-FA is more aerodynamic and less stealthier, and this shows that the Russians don't take stealth too seriously.

IMHO, F-35 is a misnomer. It is not really a fighter. It is a bomb truck. It should have been named A-35, A for Attack. It is sold as F-35, F for Fighter, for political reasons. F-35 is a political white elephant.
 

Krusty

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Just for a perspective, not anyone in particular. Many of us have come to expect payloads like in traditional fighters.

Also, if one compares F-35 with PAK-FA, it is easy too notice that PAK-FA is more aerodynamic and less stealthier, and this shows that the Russians don't take stealth too seriously.

IMHO, F-35 is a misnomer. It is not really a fighter. It is a bomb truck. It should have been named A-35, A for Attack. It is sold as F-35, F for Fighter, for political reasons. F-35 is a political white elephant.
Absolutely. Russians always say their machines are built to win wars, not beauty contests. Knowing Russians, you can say for sure PAK-FA will be atleast as agile as the agility kings SU-30/35. Which IMHO is what the Russians are going for. The Sukhoi design team aren't a bunch of newbies. So if they aren't taking stealth too seriously, I would be willing to bet there would be sound reasoning behind it. We already see that NATO/US aren't willing to mess with SU30/35s the way they used to in the early days of the Syrian crisis when RuAF was flying SU25s alone. In some cases, I read that NATO fighters were being harassed with lockons by SU35s over Syria. Don't know how far that's true though. One thing is for sure, USAF is extremely reluctant to pitch the F22 against Russian flankers over Syria... people are free to draw their own conclusions.

This was the point in my other discussion. USAF is extremely reluctant to put the F22 on a fighter Mission. Especially when going up against flankers. They trust their F15 a whole lot more than they do the F22. All the rest of the propaganda is hogwash. You can't spend billions of $ on a program and at the end of it say it doesn't work.
 

aditya10r

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Absolutely. Russians always say their machines are built to win wars, not beauty contests. Knowing Russians, you can say for sure PAK-FA will be atleast as agile as the agility kings SU-30/35. Which IMHO is what the Russians are going for. The Sukhoi design team aren't a bunch of newbies. So if they aren't taking stealth too seriously, I would be willing to bet there would be sound reasoning behind it. We already see that NATO/US aren't willing to mess with SU30/35s the way they used to in the early days of the Syrian crisis when RuAF was flying SU25s alone. In some cases, I read that NATO fighters were being harassed with lockons by SU35s over Syria. Don't know how far that's true though. One thing is for sure, USAF is extremely reluctant to pitch the F22 against Russian flankers over Syria... people are free to draw their own conclusions.

This was the point in my other discussion. USAF is extremely reluctant to put the F22 on a fighter Mission. Especially when going up against flankers. They trust their F15 a whole lot more than they do the F22. All the rest of the propaganda is hogwash. You can't spend billions of $ on a program and at the end of it say it doesn't work.
Since the arrival of S-400 ADS and su-34's flying with AAM's(mind you su-34 is a dedicated strike fighter),the turks have flown very few missions over syrian airspace.
 

Khagesh

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Not getting to within 20 miles of F-22 without being targeted implies that Typhoons can get till about 20 miles.

May be with some difficulty but still with certainty enough that both the USAF and the German Air Force feel like exercising for WVR combat.

On the flip side if you can get to within 20 miles then you just have to ensure it that your sensors work till that range on the higher side and your problem is solved. May be give and take somethings but largely that is what is already happening.

Besides the chinese, japanese, russians, Indians are all aiming for a vectored thrust in their 5th Gen fighters. Europeans too are going to put vectored thrust in their 4.5 Gen fighters. So it would be safe to believe that they all believe that this vectoring would be a very important component of future air space dominance.

More importantly in future F-22 would also be datalinked to F-35, which is a definite climb down from the earlier stand where F-22 VLO was considered so sacrosanct that even sharing of data was considered to be an avoidable risk.

Moreover the 15:1 or 20:1 kill ratios in Red Flags have the following commentary from the operators, one Lieutenant Colonel George Watkins:
“Before where we would have one advanced threat and we would put everything we had—F-16s, F-15s, F-18s, missiles, we would shoot everything we had at that one threat just to take it out—now we are seeing three or four of those threats at a time. Just between [the F-35] and the [F-22] Raptor we are able to geolocate them, precision-target them, and then we are able to bring the fourth-generation assets in behind us after those threats are neutralized. It’s a whole different world out there for us now...When you pair the F-22 and the F-35 like together with the fourth-generation strikers behind us, we’re really able to dominate the airspace over the Nellis test and training range.”

What escaped the Lt. Col. is that if a real Gen 5 machine helps out then even a Gen-4 can easily do whatever is being done by the F-35 which is supposed to be the latest standard in the Gen-5. Again they also never said anything about how the F-16C came up for the air combat exercise, Was it without LPI support, without AWACS, without IRST and with MTOW or otherwise.

So there is a lot to be said and heard, right now.
 

aditya10r

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STraight from the horses mouth. f
Pierre was the codesigner of the F16 and A10 platforms busting some myths.


Longer version and comments on the F35 by the same person.

It's simple af,a jet with lo design,ecm,long range radar,good enough payload, multi-role can do anything......
 

Sunstersun

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STraight from the horses mouth. f
Pierre was the codesigner of the F16 and A10 platforms busting some myths.


Longer version and comments on the F35 by the same person.


@pmaitra
Copied and pasted but you get the idea.


Here we go again (first I'll address Sprey, then his arguments)...

Alright; so first up, I would like to acknowledge that Pierre Sprey did help to guide the development of the F-16, F-15 and A-10.

However, Sprey was not the only voice in the development of these aircraft and represents an extreme in the varying opinions on how these aircraft were to fight.

For those unaware, there was / is a group of analysts and generals called the "Fighter Mafia"; who believe that that John Boyd's / Thomas Christie's Energy-Maneuverability theory should be the defining tool in the design of a fighter aircraft. This theory basically was a method of comparing aircraft based on thrust, weight, drag, wing area, etc, into a model that can provide a numeric value of how fighters would compare against one another.

However, one thing that the E-M theory (note E-M, not EM [electromagnetic]) did not consider at all however was technology such as radar, stealth, missile performance, etc. It was basically a method that took the means of comparing WW2 aircraft and applied it to 1970's jet fighters.

Naturally though, these guys weren't stupid; the group as a whole did support putting a radar in the nose and providing aircraft like the F-15 the ability to use missiles. Pierre Sprey however, while he would accept the use of basic technologies, was a "true luddite" (person who doesn't believe in the use of technology), even according to retired General Mike Loh who was another member of the fighter mafia.

Due to his beliefs and flaws in character, Sprey doesn't really keep up with technology or care to hear what it has to offer.

So, as for his arguments:

  1. He doesn't believe in multi-mission aircraft; he believes that you should have an an air-supremacy fighter with no A2G, etc. In the modern world, that's not something that can be afforded or easily managed logistically.

  2. "It's fat"; "it has tiny wings" - it's convenient then that there exists such a concept as the lifting body; the F-35 is draggy no doubt, but you can't say it's wide and then say it has no lifting surfaces. The F-15 for example has been able to make it home ripping off a wing, thanks to the same phenomenon.

  3. "Astonishingly unmaneuverable" - despite it being depicted as being roughly equal to the F-16 and F/A-18. Sprey has no more access to the F-35's performance data as the vast majority of anyone here. At the time of that interview, even less-so.

  4. "108lb/ft2" - I would like to point out here that "wing loading" is misconceiving. If you want to see / read why, I've done an analysis here: http://pastebin.com/k0AsgH6A

  5. There is no way in hell that a Mig-21 with a sustained turn rate of 12.9 deg/s is going to be able to compare with the sustained turn rate the F-35; what that value is, is currently unknown or classified, but considering that an F-16 does 23 deg/s and even the F-4; a pretty terrible dogfighter, does 13.7 means that the statement is laughable.

  6. Ground support; Pierre says you need to be able to turn slowly, have a large gun and be on station for 4-6 hours. First up; if you can see through your aircraft, using 360 degree thermal (IR) imagery, as well as receive realtime footage of the fight from UAVs, friendly air and ground assets, why do you need to have the pilot flying slowly over the dangerous target area, gawking through through his canopy?

    And as for the gun; when the A-10's GAU-8 fires; 80% of it's rounds will land within a 12m diameter circle. That assumes that you're not trying to hit a moving target and are firing from 1.2km away. With a SDB II (GBU-53), an F-35 or other fighter with the right sensors, can hit within 1m of a target from up to 72km away and will will destroy or disable vehicles within a 10m radius. It's kill radius will naturally differ based on environment, but you could easily expect soldiers to be incapacitated or killed at twice that.

    Furthermore, on the topic of CAS; one issue that soldiers face when ordering air support is that when they order it, they need to retire or take cover. In Afghanistan, the Taliban have learned to recognise this, and in response, will go into hiding / take cover, only to strike again later. By being able to have CAS available at least 3 times faster (even more so considering how the F-35 is going to saturate future airspace), you can cut down or eliminate the problem. If you need endurance or overwatch, get a UCAV and have it supply CAS for a couple of days at a time.

  7. "A tank is not visible from even maybe a quarter mile or less" - really? Well at least SAR & 360 degree EO/IR will help out pilots with poor vision.

  8. "The first thing to know about stealth is that it's a scam!" - I bet all those Iraqi AAA & SAM operators totally thought it was a scam when F-117's wrecked havoc too. All those pilots that go up against F-22's and get decimated time after time too.

  9. "Radars that were built in 1942 could detect every stealth aircraft today" - sure; hence why we've lost so many stealth aircraft to SAMs. He references low-frequency radar, but the issue is, while you might perhaps see stealth aircraft coming into the country, that doesn't particularly help when that target is jittering among background noise and is a single 'pixel'. There's a reason that all terminal radar guidance systems use higher frequencies.

  10. "If Canada is still buying it, it'll cost $200 million+" - we'll see in the next few weeks, but it looks like Lockheed and Canada are going to be proving Sprey dead wrong pretty soon.

  11. "I'm predicting that in the US, we'll never buy more than 500 airplanes" - considering more than 100 have been made, his prediction is running out of time. Considering that the US has no real alternatives too, I highly doubt they're going to let the order drop below 2000; in the mean time, orders have increased, with Congress approving extra aircraft for 2015 and new nations like Singapore and Japan jumping aboard the JSF program.

  12. "[If there had been a proper competition for Canada, the Gripen or Eurofighter would have won, as they have in other countries]" - except the Gripen would have been worse in every way, and the Eurofighter is significantly more expensive than the F-35 or pretty much any other option.


Quite honestly you are repeating every F-35 bingo card point out there.


upload_2017-6-7_6-14-56.png


How the fuck would Sprey know what the Russian radar can and cannot spot?

First of all he doesn't know any more about the F-35 than you or I do, and he certainly doesn't know what the Russian radars can or cannot do.

Stealth is not overrated, that is an asinine statement given that literally every new plane is trying to incorporate stealth characteristics.

Also note this video was produced in 2013. Most of his criticisms aren't valid anymore.
 
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Krusty

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Copied and pasted but you get the idea.


Here we go again (first I'll address Sprey, then his arguments)...

Alright; so first up, I would like to acknowledge that Pierre Sprey did help to guide the development of the F-16, F-15 and A-10.

However, Sprey was not the only voice in the development of these aircraft and represents an extreme in the varying opinions on how these aircraft were to fight.

For those unaware, there was / is a group of analysts and generals called the "Fighter Mafia"; who believe that that John Boyd's / Thomas Christie's Energy-Maneuverability theory should be the defining tool in the design of a fighter aircraft. This theory basically was a method of comparing aircraft based on thrust, weight, drag, wing area, etc, into a model that can provide a numeric value of how fighters would compare against one another.

However, one thing that the E-M theory (note E-M, not EM [electromagnetic]) did not consider at all however was technology such as radar, stealth, missile performance, etc. It was basically a method that took the means of comparing WW2 aircraft and applied it to 1970's jet fighters.

Naturally though, these guys weren't stupid; the group as a whole did support putting a radar in the nose and providing aircraft like the F-15 the ability to use missiles. Pierre Sprey however, while he would accept the use of basic technologies, was a "true luddite" (person who doesn't believe in the use of technology), even according to retired General Mike Loh who was another member of the fighter mafia.

Due to his beliefs and flaws in character, Sprey doesn't really keep up with technology or care to hear what it has to offer.

So, as for his arguments:

  1. He doesn't believe in multi-mission aircraft; he believes that you should have an an air-supremacy fighter with no A2G, etc. In the modern world, that's not something that can be afforded or easily managed logistically.

  2. "It's fat"; "it has tiny wings" - it's convenient then that there exists such a concept as the lifting body; the F-35 is draggy no doubt, but you can't say it's wide and then say it has no lifting surfaces. The F-15 for example has been able to make it home ripping off a wing, thanks to the same phenomenon.

  3. "Astonishingly unmaneuverable" - despite it being depicted as being roughly equal to the F-16 and F/A-18. Sprey has no more access to the F-35's performance data as the vast majority of anyone here. At the time of that interview, even less-so.

  4. "108lb/ft2" - I would like to point out here that "wing loading" is misconceiving. If you want to see / read why, I've done an analysis here: http://pastebin.com/k0AsgH6A

  5. There is no way in hell that a Mig-21 with a sustained turn rate of 12.9 deg/s is going to be able to compare with the sustained turn rate the F-35; what that value is, is currently unknown or classified, but considering that an F-16 does 23 deg/s and even the F-4; a pretty terrible dogfighter, does 13.7 means that the statement is laughable.

  6. Ground support; Pierre says you need to be able to turn slowly, have a large gun and be on station for 4-6 hours. First up; if you can see through your aircraft, using 360 degree thermal (IR) imagery, as well as receive realtime footage of the fight from UAVs, friendly air and ground assets, why do you need to have the pilot flying slowly over the dangerous target area, gawking through through his canopy?

    And as for the gun; when the A-10's GAU-8 fires; 80% of it's rounds will land within a 12m diameter circle. That assumes that you're not trying to hit a moving target and are firing from 1.2km away. With a SDB II (GBU-53), an F-35 or other fighter with the right sensors, can hit within 1m of a target from up to 72km away and will will destroy or disable vehicles within a 10m radius. It's kill radius will naturally differ based on environment, but you could easily expect soldiers to be incapacitated or killed at twice that.

    Furthermore, on the topic of CAS; one issue that soldiers face when ordering air support is that when they order it, they need to retire or take cover. In Afghanistan, the Taliban have learned to recognise this, and in response, will go into hiding / take cover, only to strike again later. By being able to have CAS available at least 3 times faster (even more so considering how the F-35 is going to saturate future airspace), you can cut down or eliminate the problem. If you need endurance or overwatch, get a UCAV and have it supply CAS for a couple of days at a time.

  7. "A tank is not visible from even maybe a quarter mile or less" - really? Well at least SAR & 360 degree EO/IR will help out pilots with poor vision.

  8. "The first thing to know about stealth is that it's a scam!" - I bet all those Iraqi AAA & SAM operators totally thought it was a scam when F-117's wrecked havoc too. All those pilots that go up against F-22's and get decimated time after time too.

  9. "Radars that were built in 1942 could detect every stealth aircraft today" - sure; hence why we've lost so many stealth aircraft to SAMs. He references low-frequency radar, but the issue is, while you might perhaps see stealth aircraft coming into the country, that doesn't particularly help when that target is jittering among background noise and is a single 'pixel'. There's a reason that all terminal radar guidance systems use higher frequencies.

  10. "If Canada is still buying it, it'll cost $200 million+" - we'll see in the next few weeks, but it looks like Lockheed and Canada are going to be proving Sprey dead wrong pretty soon.

  11. "I'm predicting that in the US, we'll never buy more than 500 airplanes" - considering more than 100 have been made, his prediction is running out of time. Considering that the US has no real alternatives too, I highly doubt they're going to let the order drop below 2000; in the mean time, orders have increased, with Congress approving extra aircraft for 2015 and new nations like Singapore and Japan jumping aboard the JSF program.

  12. "[If there had been a proper competition for Canada, the Gripen or Eurofighter would have won, as they have in other countries]" - except the Gripen would have been worse in every way, and the Eurofighter is significantly more expensive than the F-35 or pretty much any other option.


Quite honestly you are repeating every F-35 bingo card point out there.


View attachment 16542

How the fuck would Sprey know what the Russian radar can and cannot spot?

First of all he doesn't know any more about the F-35 than you or I do, and he certainly doesn't know what the Russian radars can or cannot do.

Stealth is not overrated, that is an asinine statement given that literally every new plane is trying to incorporate stealth characteristics.

Also note this video was produced in 2013. Most of his criticisms aren't valid anymore.
Sorry but I have read this before. And there are counters for this as well. I will let people draw their own conclusions though. We are going to have to agree to disagree. You can do better than to read the RAND report on the F22 and research on the new GaN radars. Also there is the Australian report and the simulated war game between F35 and SU35 which I'll try to find. Just because the Australians and Canadians are complaining, doesn't mean the US will just let them get out of the program. No way in hell.
 

TPFscopes

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Nothing is stealthy in the world but at present time , there is a lot to do in STEALTH evading Tech.
 

Sam Biswas

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Absolutely. Russians always say their machines are built to win wars, not beauty contests. Knowing Russians, you can say for sure PAK-FA will be atleast as agile as the agility kings SU-30/35. Which IMHO is what the Russians are going for. The Sukhoi design team aren't a bunch of newbies. So if they aren't taking stealth too seriously, I would be willing to bet there would be sound reasoning behind it. We already see that NATO/US aren't willing to mess with SU30/35s the way they used to in the early days of the Syrian crisis when RuAF was flying SU25s alone. In some cases, I read that NATO fighters were being harassed with lockons by SU35s over Syria. Don't know how far that's true though. One thing is for sure, USAF is extremely reluctant to pitch the F22 against Russian flankers over Syria... people are free to draw their own conclusions.

This was the point in my other discussion. USAF is extremely reluctant to put the F22 on a fighter Mission. Especially when going up against flankers. They trust their F15 a whole lot more than they do the F22. All the rest of the propaganda is hogwash. You can't spend billions of $ on a program and at the end of it say it doesn't work.

You can sing all the praise of Su30/35 you want, but you don't have the facts. Israel has only five F-35s; three of those went inside Syria, evading Su30/35 and S-300 missiles. and bombed Baghdad.

Regardless of how great Su30/35s really are, Russia already gave these fighters to China. If you analyze Russia's dealing with arms over last thirty years, it behaves like a prostitute, lack of a better term. Whatever it sells India, Russia gives the same to China. Thus, anything India is buying from Russia is useless against China and in a way against Pakistan also. I do not understand the logic, if there is one, of buying Russian weapons.
 

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