Sukhoi PAK FA

[Krusty]

You can sing all the praise of Su30/35 you want, but you don't have the facts. Israel has only five F-35s; three of those went inside Syria, evading Su30/35 and S-300 missiles. and bombed Baghdad.

Regardless of how great Su30/35s really are, Russia already gave these fighters to China. If you analyze Russia's dealing with arms over last thirty years, it behaves like a prostitute, lack of a better term. Whatever it sells India, Russia gives the same to China. Thus, anything India is buying from Russia is useless against China and in a way against Pakistan also. I do not understand the logic, if there is one, of buying Russian weapons.

F35 evaded S300 and bombed Baghdad? Donald trump, is that you??

 

[Bahamut]

"It's fat"; "it has tiny wings" - it's convenient then that there exists such a concept as the lifting body; the F-35 is draggy no doubt, but you can't say it's wide and then say it has no lifting surfaces. The F-15 for example has been able to make it home ripping off a wing, thanks to the same phenomenon.

If F 35 has a flying body design where are the wing and lift body integrated ,plus F 15 landed with one wing because of the trust was enough for F 15 to act as a rocket

"Radars that were built in 1942 could detect every stealth aircraft today" - sure; hence why we've lost so many stealth aircraft to SAMs. He references low-frequency radar, but the issue is, while you might perhaps see stealth aircraft coming into the country, that doesn't particularly help when that target is jittering among background noise and is a single 'pixel'. There's a reason that all terminal radar guidance systems use higher frequencies.

With advances in machine learning and Infred imaging the missile just need to be guided in general area and it will identify,lock and destroy the target on its own. Such system are less then 5 years away with both Russia and China testing the algorithm for such systems.

 

[Sunstersun]

If F 35 has a flying body design where are the wing and lift body integrated ,plus F 15 landed with one wing because of the trust was enough for F 15 to act as a rocket

With advances in machine learning and Infred imaging the missile just need to be guided in general area and it will identify,lock and destroy the target on its own. Such system are less then 5 years away with both Russia and China testing the algorithm for such systems.

India, Russia and China should cancel all stealth tech on their future planes and leave USA to wallow in the dying stealth tech. Of course military planners aren't going to do that because they actually know what's up. Even if you can detect stealth aircraft, it still offers advantages.

 

[Sunstersun]

F35 evaded S300 and bombed Baghdad? Donald trump, is that you??

It's a rumour based on French intel.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-combat-mission-syria-2017-4

>Malbrunot reported that on January 12, Israeli F-35s took out a Russian-made S-300 air defense system around Syrian President Bashar Assad's palace in Damascus and a Russian-made Pantsir-S1 mobile surface-to-air missile system set for delivery to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

 

[StealthFlanker]

When it's actual combat, it's extremely different. F117 shot down over Serbia was one of the first instances where showing off stealth and eating too much propaganda actually led to the American pilot ending up in an embarrassing interview in front of his captors

F-117 flown thousands of sorties and got shot down once, Once in its entire service time. How embarrassing having a 0.0001% shot down rate despite having no RWR, ECM?.

to even the mighty F22 when flying in Syria for combat runs are escorted by F15s and F16s... why? So called F22 can kill 20-30 EFTs and Rafales right? The USAF is so afraid that the F22s will run into outdated Syrian aircrafts?

Please shows evidence that F-22 was "escorted" by F-15, F-16 in Syrian. How do you know it wasn't the other way round?. F-15, F-16 were escorted by F-22?

The advent of GaN radars have further dented the so called supaa stealth features. Yes. Stealth is overrated. Stealth doesn't mean invisibility. It was just Low observable. New types of radars are already in which are capable of picking up these birds. Yes, the F22 has been tracked by radars. It isn't something new.

Stealth never mean invisible, it always means lower detection range. F-22 can be tracked by radar but the main questions are at what distance? and from what aspect?. How far can the same radar detect legacy aircraft?

GaN help radar improve detection range due to better transmitting power, but they can be used on ECM system too and jammers have much better synergy with low RCS aircraft.

And don't even go into WVR. Even the agile F22 got whupped by German EFTs. Just Google 'raptor salad for lunch'. And have you seen how tiny the wing area is in comparison to the body size isnfor the J20? Can you tell me what does that say?

British Eurofighter get whipped by Pakistan F-16
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/eurofighter_beaten_by_f16/
Rafale get whipped by F-4 in Frisian flag

Do you want to tell us what does that say?

 

[Armand2REP]

Do you want to tell us what does that say?

It looks like a photoshop once you blow it up. Does it say Rafale Cater? I never seen an E drawn like that. The drawn aircraft is clearly a Eurofighter.

 

[StealthFlanker]

It looks like a photoshop once you blow it up. Does it say Rafale Cater? I never seen an E drawn like that. The drawn aircraft is clearly a Eurofighter.

Rafale joined Frisian flag 2008 while Eurofighter didn't.

 

[StealthFlanker]

STraight from the horses mouth. f
Pierre was the codesigner of the F16 and A10 platforms busting some myths.

Very low frequency radar render stealth shaping less effective as the majority of the return when the aircraft in Mie region came from traveling wave and surface diffraction rather than specular return

However, this effect is reduced on newer stealth aircraft due to the use of many continuous curves rather than full facet design like on F-117. Lesser sharp edge mean less diffraction.

No stealth aircraft uses full tube body so the effect of traveling wave return are minimal

That with the invention of CNT-RAM by LM that have effective bandwidth between 0.1 Mhz and 60 Ghz, suddenly, low frequency is not much of silver bullet anymore
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US20100271253.pdf

And we haven't talked about how horrendously inaccurate low-frequency radar are with the massive beamwidth, they are pretty much useful for early warning only.

 

[gadeshi]

To anyone who thinks stealth is overrated or useless.

Nobody in a sane mind say this, but...
As American generals say:
Stealth is Recon, Recon, Recon, Planning, Planning, Planning, Tactics, Tactics, Tactics and only then - low RCS.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[StealthFlanker]

the simulated war game between F35 and SU35 which I'll try to find

this one ?
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/does-the-f-35-really-suck-in-air-combat/

 

[Bahamut]

It's a rumour based on French intel.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-combat-mission-syria-2017-4

>Malbrunot reported that on January 12, Israeli F-35s took out a Russian-made S-300 air defense system around Syrian President Bashar Assad's palace in Damascus and a Russian-made Pantsir-S1 mobile surface-to-air missile system set for delivery to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Israel and share the details of their military operations to avoid casualties
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.679528?v=C826EF87A38E40449824AEE64826B873

 

[Sam Biswas]

F35 evaded S300 and bombed Baghdad? Donald trump, is that you??

Here you go:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...ted-near-damascus-international-airport-syria

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-combat-mission-syria-2017-4

Keep your eyes closed and ears plugged; then you don't have to face the reality or stupidity!

 

[Bahamut]

And we haven't talked about how horrendously inaccurate low-frequency radar are with the massive beamwidth, they are pretty much useful for early warning only.

What if we have missile with dual band IR seeker which lead to the area by data link with a low frequency radar and when it comes to that area it automatically finds and locks to the target

 

[Kay]

Here you go:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...ted-near-damascus-international-airport-syria

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-combat-mission-syria-2017-4

Keep your eyes closed and ears plugged; then you don't have to face the reality or stupidity!

Damascus is not Baghdad ....you don't bomb allies..:biggrin2:..and the strikes probably had Putin's tacit approval..though it will not be acknowledged.. there was a reason Bibi met Putin when Russian planes arrived in Lakatia.

 

[Sunstersun]

J-20 = Stealth

J-31 = Stealth

T-50 = Stealth

FGFA= Stealth

F-22 = Stealth

F-35 = Stealth

H-20 = Stealth

B-21 = Stealth

AMCA = Stealth

LSA = Stealth

yet stealth is overrated. Literally every new plane is incorporating this technology. I do wish India good luck in fighting these stealth planes with Rafales, should be interesting. (not really)

 

[Kay]

Do we need a stealth plane? - Yes. Stealth is a unique capability and a dominating one today.

Do all future planes need to be stealthy? - No.There are talks of non-stealthy arsenal planes and stealth is costly and unsuitable for roles like CAS. Also, future air war would be network centric with capabilities shared across platforms.

Will stealth become obsolete? - Not in the near future, even though anti stealth radars are gaining ground and stealth may not be as dominating as it is today. The nature of stealth technology may change to electronic stealth.

Does India need F-35? No.
F-35 airframe sacrifices maneuverability to achieve commonality. It will dominate against a fourth generation fighter in BVR combat, but will be at disadvantage against another fifth generation aircraft (with similar stealth andh a avionics) which is maneuverable. There is a reason US is looking for sixth generation fighters.

F-35 is still under development, while it is being inducted. Many of its touted technologies don't work yet, e.g. sensor fusion, HMD, network centricity. The software has problems and increases pilot workload. It can't fly in lightening yet (this may have been corrected).

The problem is it is technologically too ambitious and uses too many unproven technologies - which never works out well.

But the biggest criticism of F35 is that it is politically unstoppable. It has plants in 50 US states so that no US senator opposes it. Since Lockheed has roped in so many countries as partners, there is tremendous pressure on any country trying to leave, as it will increase cost on others. US has already bought around 200 planes with development still on going - this is acquisition malpractice. Delays and issues still plague the programme. Cost has ballooned.

F35 has Level1 , 2 and 3 partner countries. India joining the program will put us at the end of the queue. We will neither get TOT, nor will be able to properly customize it as per our need.

F-35 has effectively killed all European fighter programs and will do the same to us. We will surrender our foreign policy and become an American vassal just as Pakistan is to China.

 

[Sunstersun]

Do we need a stealth plane? - Yes. Stealth is a unique capability and a dominating one today.

Do all future planes need to be stealthy? - No.There are talks of non-stealthy arsenal planes and stealth is costly and unsuitable for roles like CAS. Also, future air war would be network centric with capabilities shared across platforms.

Will stealth become obsolete? - Not in the near future, even though anti stealth radars are gaining ground and stealth may not be as dominating as it is today. The nature of stealth technology may change to electronic stealth.

Does India need F-35? No.
F-35 airframe sacrifices maneuverability to achieve commonality. It will dominate against a fourth generation fighter in BVR combat, but will be at disadvantage against another fifth generation aircraft (with similar stealth andh a avionics) which is maneuverable. There is a reason US is looking for sixth generation fighters.

F-35 is still under development, while it is being inducted. Many of its touted technologies don't work yet, e.g. sensor fusion, HMD, network centricity. The software has problems and increases pilot workload. It can't fly in lightening yet (this may have been corrected).

The problem is it is technologically too ambitious and uses too many unproven technologies - which never works out well.

But the biggest criticism of F35 is that it is politically unstoppable. It has plants in 50 US states so that no US senator opposes it. Since Lockheed has roped in so many countries as partners, there is tremendous pressure on any country trying to leave, as it will increase cost on others. US has already bought around 200 planes with development still on going - this is acquisition malpractice. Delays and issues still plague the programme. Cost has ballooned.

F35 has Level1 , 2 and 3 partner countries. India joining the program will put us at the end of the queue. We will neither get TOT, nor will be able to properly customize it as per our need.

F-35 has effectively killed all European fighter programs and will do the same to us. We will surrender our foreign policy and become an American vassal just as Pakistan is to China.

I never said India needed the F-35, I just reject the claim that stealth is overrated.


I won't get into why 90% of your information on the F-35 is outdated, this isn't a thread about that plane.

suffice to say cost overruns and delays are nothing new.


yet the f-16 turned out to be an all time great plane.

 

[Kay]

I never said India needed the F-35, I just reject the claim that stealth is overrated.


I won't get into why 90% of your information on the F-35 is outdated, this isn't a thread about that plane.

I agree that stealth is a dominating capability today, but importance will diminish in coming years. My post was directed mostly to proponents of F35.

Please do tell where I am wrong on F35.

 

[Sunstersun]

Do we need a stealth plane? - Yes. Stealth is a unique capability and a dominating one today.

Do all future planes need to be stealthy? - No.There are talks of non-stealthy arsenal planes and stealth is costly and unsuitable for roles like CAS. Also, future air war would be network centric with capabilities shared across platforms.

Will stealth become obsolete? - Not in the near future, even though anti stealth radars are gaining ground and stealth may not be as dominating as it is today. The nature of stealth technology may change to electronic stealth.

Does India need F-35? No.
F-35 airframe sacrifices maneuverability to achieve commonality. It will dominate against a fourth generation fighter in BVR combat, but will be at disadvantage against another fifth generation aircraft (with similar stealth andh a avionics) which is maneuverable. There is a reason US is looking for sixth generation fighters.

F-35 is still under development, while it is being inducted.Many of its touted technologies don't work yet, e.g. sensor fusion, HMD, network centricity. The software has problems and increases pilot workload. It can't fly in lightening yet (this may have been corrected).

The problem is it is technologically too ambitious and uses too many unproven technologies - which never works out well.

But the biggest criticism of F35 is that it is politically unstoppable. It has plants in 50 US states so that no US senator opposes it. Since Lockheed has roped in so many countries as partners, there is tremendous pressure on any country trying to leave, as it will increase cost on others. US has already bought around 200 planes with development still on going - this is acquisition malpractice. Delays and issues still plague the programme. Cost has ballooned.

F35 has Level1 , 2 and 3 partner countries. India joining the program will put us at the end of the queue. We will neither get TOT, nor will be able to properly customize it as per our need.

F-35 has effectively killed all European fighter programs and will do the same to us. We will surrender our foreign policy and become an American vassal just as Pakistan is to China.

Well you insisted.
>Do all future planes need to be stealthy? - No.There are talks of non-stealthy arsenal planes and stealth is costly and unsuitable for roles like CAS.

The biggest threat to airplanes besides another fighter are integrated missile defenses. Things like the patriot, or the s-400. Sure Stealth is unnecessary when bombing Iraq or Afghanistan, but against countries like Russia and China, any non stealth plane isn't actually going to be able to perform CAS because it will be shot down. Stealth increases survivability, which is pretty important. Stealth planes will be able to perform strike and CAS missions that non stealth planes could never dream.


Listen to the topic on SAMs.

also a good section on CAS.

>Also, future air war would be network centric with capabilities shared across platforms.

Yes this is one of the biggest features of the F-35. If it runs out of missiles it can get a ship from 1000 KM away to fire a missile at a plane based on the information gathered by the F-35 sensors.

>Will stealth become obsolete? - Not in the near future, even though anti stealth radars are gaining ground and stealth may not be as dominating as it is today.

This is true, although no matter how good the radar is, stealth planes will still offer significant advantages over non stealth planes.


>Does India need F-35? No.

Fair enough, India decides what India wants.

>F-35 airframe sacrifices maneuverability to achieve commonality. It will dominate against a fourth generation fighter in BVR combat, but will be at disadvantage against another fifth generation aircraft (with similar stealth andh a avionics) which is maneuverable.

I'm sorry but isn't this a bit of a nothing statement? If everything is the same, except for a plane being better at something the F-35 will lose. Isn't that a universal truth? Not unique to the F-35 I'd imagine. T-50 is more maneuverable apparently because it sacrifices stealth to a degree. Maneuverability in modern air combat is overrated anyways.

>There is a reason US is looking for sixth generation fighters.

What? The USA is always looking for new fighters and tech. So because the US looked for a fifth generation plane the F-16 and F-15 are junk? Nah, the battle cry is forward.

>F-35 is still under development, while it is being inducted. Many of its touted technologies don't work yet, e.g. sensor fusion, HMD, network centricity.

Outdated information.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...-f-35s-third-generation-magic-helmet-is-here/ since then the weight has dropped to below 4.8.

:
Refer to the above red flag video where the general talks about the F-35 being the "quarterback."

Your point about sensor fusion is a bit vague, I can't really comment on it unless you specify a specific problem with the sensors.

>The software has problems and increases pilot workload.

The software issues were only a really big deal 3 years ago. Flew fine in red flag training. Also keep in mind this plane is still in development, so it makes sense it has software issues.

>It can't fly in lightening yet (this may have been corrected).

This isn't specifically directed at you, but this is an example of how outdated information is recycled to repeat a point. The F-35 lifted all weather restrictions July 2015. Very common for planes to have weather restrictions while still in development.

>The problem is it is technologically too ambitious and uses too many unproven technologies - which never works out well.

Not really, it worked out fine for the F-22. Stealth is a proven concept since the F-117, advanced sensors and networking are all apart of the F-22 package. People just think there's a problem with having too much shit because temporarily the F-35 had a lot of problems.

>But the biggest criticism of F35 is that it is politically unstoppable. It has plants in 50 US states so that no US senator opposes it.

I'd say this is a good thing, politicians have no business in military procurement. If Senators managed the military we'd have nothing because a universal truth is 95% of military projects have cost overruns and delays. Point in case the F-16. Also the f-22 was axed even though it was a 44 state job program.


> Since Lockheed has roped in so many countries as partners, there is tremendous pressure on any country trying to leave, as it will increase cost on others.

But countries voluntarily signed up as partners because they would get cheaper planes and a share of the work in producing and maintenance. No one is forced to sign up to be a partner, South Korea will purchase F-35's and they're not a tiered partner.

>US has already bought around 200 planes with development still on going - this is acquisition malpractice.

Says who? Concurrency common tactic the USA uses.


Near the end explains it way better than I could possibly explain it. But basically the whole point is when the plane is at IOC, the production has already matured.

>Delays and issues still plague the programme. Cost has ballooned.

Cost ballooning is more outdated information.

For example, the F-22 ballooned in cost much greater than the F-35.

People are just taking 3000 planes increasing in cost to deliver a big scary number.

Furthermore the F-35 is rapidly dropping in price.

Projected to eventually be 85mil a pop, which is cheaper than the Rafale. (it is already cheaper than the eurotyphoon).

https://www.reddit.com/r/F35Lightni...the_f35_development_and_testing_time/d0q1ur0/

Here is a good post about the "cost," of the F-35.

>F35 has Level1 , 2 and 3 partner countries. India joining the program will put us at the end of the queue. We will neither get TOT, nor will be able to properly customize it as per our need.

Fair enough, these are issues not related to the performance of the fighter. Although in all fairness, India won't receive Rafales until 2021 either. It's a big difference but not that much. TOT is a big thing I agree, customization sure.


>F-35 has effectively killed all European fighter programs and will do the same to us. We will surrender our foreign policy and become an American vassal just as Pakistan is to China.

Not related to the F-35 performance either.


Just some information about the performances of the F-35.

Here is Saab's opinion on planes.

Here is Denmark's findings on the F-35.

http://www.fmn.dk/temaer/kampfly/Do...-kommende-kampfly-reduceret-vers-20160509.pdf

I can't read Danish either, but the charts are easy to understand.

https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/...nce-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/

F-35 scores 20.7 KDA in red flag.

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/does-the-f-35-really-suck-in-air-combat/

simulation against the SU-35.

https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/...ng-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account

pilots talking about fighting the f-35.

https://np.reddit.com/r/politics/co...eing_for_f18_pitch_citing_tremendous/dbixlo6/

super hornet pilot talking about the f-35.

 

[StealthFlanker]

What if we have missile with dual band IR seeker which lead to the area by data link with a low frequency radar and when it comes to that area it automatically finds and locks to the target

It works if the distance is very short. It won't work at long distance because the ambiguous physical volume will be too big for coasting missiles to intercept target.
You can theoretically put the IR seeker on a ramjet missile, but here come the second problem: heating of the nose, long-range air to air missiles need to be very fast, the faster you go, the more air will heat the nose up. At altitude of 10 km, standard day, the stagnation temperature at the cone tip will be around
268K for missiles moving at Mach 1
400K for missiles moving at Mach 2
930K for missiles moving at Mach 4

the heat from the nose will reduce signal noise ratio => reduce detection range

So going at Mach 2 is fine but at Mach 4 the detection range of the seeker will reduce quite a bit.
Technically you can do it, but it is super inefficient

There are very fast missiles with IR seeker such as the SM-3,THAAD but their seeker aren't exposed until they are out of atmosphere. You can't do the same for missiles intended to attack aircraft though