Sukhoi PAK FA

[Dharmapalas]

Lets just say stealth is overrated(which it isnt), how would you know? China, Russia and India are racing to build stealth fighters.

Literally we've never seen stealth fighters in combat except at red flag where they dominate like 20-1.

Also literally every military program has delays and cost overruns, the only reason the f-35 gets so much heat is because no one understands why it's a great plane and social media.

Here is the f-16 news report back then when it was still developing.


yet it turned out to be the greatest fighter ever created.

Stealth is good, it is an upgrade over G4 jets.

But at what cost?

The F-22 is a great plane, much better than the F15 in penetrating enemy radars and just as good or better in combat, it is better then the F-35 in combat (F-35 is to replace the F-16).

But the F-22 not only costs lots of money, it also costs lots of money to operate. That has been the greatest problem for the F-22, it is much more expensive to operate per flying hour than the F-15, this is putting stress on the United States Air Force budget, just imagine what those costs will do to smaller countries operating budgets.

 

[Sunstersun]

Stealth is good, it is an upgrade over G4 jets.

But at what cost?

The F-22 is a great plane, much better than the F15 in penetrating enemy radars and just as good or better in combat, it is better then the F-35 in combat (F-35 is to replace the F-16).

But the F-22 not only costs lots of money, it also costs lots of money to operate. That has been the greatest problem for the F-22, it is much more expensive to operate per flying hour than the F-15, this is putting stress on the United States Air Force budget, just imagine what those costs will do to smaller countries operating budgets.

Refer to my post above about misleading F-35 costs. The F-35 is cheaper than the Eurotyphoon and will be cheaper than the Rafale/Superhornet.

The F-22 costing so much was why it was canceled along with a couple of other valid reasons.

 

[Dharmapalas]

It's a rumour based on French intel.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-combat-mission-syria-2017-4

>Malbrunot reported that on January 12, Israeli F-35s took out a Russian-made S-300 air defense system around Syrian President Bashar Assad's palace in Damascus and a Russian-made Pantsir-S1 mobile surface-to-air missile system set for delivery to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

ok but Baghdad is not in Syria.

 

[Dharmapalas]

Refer to my post above about misleading F-35 costs. The F-35 is cheaper than the Eurotyphoon and will be cheaper than the Rafale/Superhornet.

The F-22 costing so much was why it was canceled along with a couple of other valid reasons.

The chart would indicate that the Grippen would be the smartest buy.

 

[Sunstersun]

The chart would indicate that the Grippen would be the smartest buy.

That chart is also hilariously biased in favour of the Gripen, I posted it because it's a decent reference point for the eurotyphoon, rafales, and superhornets. So the Gripen N/G will cost the same as the Gripen C/D yet have double the capability? Nah that was there early attempt at estimating costs.

The Gripen E will cost 60 mil or more based on current estimates. Is it cheaper than the F-35? Yes, but nowhere near what Saab is advertising.

Anyways beyond that one chart there was also information about the dropping F-35 unit costs and the cheaper year usage fews that are comparable to the F-16.

Brazil paid 4.68 billion for for 36 Gripens. Yes that includes a lot of things like weapons etc and munitions, but for example the Netherlands which won't have facilities built to share the work jacking up the cost will pay 150mi per F-35 for the entire package.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/brazil-finalises-468bn-gripen-ng-deal-416586/

https://www.reddit.com/r/F35Lightning/comments/3c68tl/table_aircraft_cost_comparison/

https://translate.google.com/transl..._motor/flygplan/article3601869.ece&edit-text=

 

[Sunstersun]

ok but Baghdad is not in Syria.

Never claimed it was, someone else did.

 

[Krusty]

Here you go:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...ted-near-damascus-international-airport-syria

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-combat-mission-syria-2017-4

Keep your eyes closed and ears plugged; then you don't have to face the reality or stupidity!

Did you even read the article? So much of 'might have', 'could be' and 'may have'. This is nothing more than a Rumour based on some unnamed Journalists claim based on an Unreferenced intelligence report by an unnamed intelligence official. Seriously?

How do you think military planners and air forces work? It's not a case of 'hey guys, I just took delivery of my new car! Let's go on a road trip!'.. no. Israelis have taken delivery of only 5 so far out of 50. Pilots will first fly and evaluate the performance parameters and capabilities, .flight crews must train. Ground support crew must train. Pilots will train on bombing runs. Based on performance evacuations engagement tactics will be formed, evasion tactics will be formed. New combat doctrines will be formulated and This will be incorporated into the current doctrine of the Israeli forces. Only then will the aircrafts go on combat missions. Do you think everything will be wrapped up in one month? Jeez man. It might be cliched but are you 12?

BTW Israelis already flew a bombing Mission in Syria last march using F15 and F16 inside an area covered by Russian AD. Check Syrian crisis thread.

Yes, I still think you are Donald trump

 

[Krusty]

F-117 flown thousands of sorties and got shot down once, Once in its entire service time. How embarrassing having a 0.0001% shot down rate despite having no RWR, ECM?.

It means that the latest and most advanced aircraft (at that time) was taken out by an obsolete Soviet era S125 and its radar that's in service from 1961. The same rhetoric that people now brag about stealth and advanced tech was also said then, by the US. How is it not embarrassing for the US to have the most modern suppaa supaa stealth aircrafts remains sitting in the Belgrade Museum? Please explain. I do not imagine then armed forces of Yugoslavia were even remotely matched in capability to the mighty USAF.

Please shows evidence that F-22 was "escorted" by F-15, F-16 in Syrian. How do you know it wasn't the other way round?. F-15, F-16 were escorted by F-22?

link already posted by @Sunstersun. There is also an LM representative talking about combat sorties over Syria by the F22. Let me try to find it.

Stealth never mean invisible, it always means lower detection range. F-22 can be tracked by radar but the main questions are at what distance? and from what aspect?. How far can the same radar detect legacy aircraft?

GaN help radar improve detection range due to better transmitting power, but they can be used on ECM system too and jammers have much better synergy with low RCS aircraft.

You are not wrong. I never said stealth meant invisible. It's just a lower RCS. And works better in Some angles than others. The last part remains to be seen when the 'fifth gen' aircrafts starts flying regular combat sorties.

Do you want to tell us what does that say?

I will tell you, but isn't it rude not to answer my question first before you put one forward?

 

[Krusty]

All said and done, the F22 was intended to replace the F15. That was the goal. That's what it was developed for. And yet Not only the F15s are still here, the USAF plans to extend the service life of their F-15 fleet. Upgrades are being rolled out to this effect. Why? Why are their service life being extended with comprehensive upgrades instead of them being phased out? Do people think military and financial planners just roll the dice and take these decisions without any reasons?

Mark my words, the F35 was intended to replace the F18 and F16 but they will take the same path as the F15 mentioned above.

There is the worth of the entire F22 program in a paragraph.

@pmaitra this thread might require a clean up. Also is there any thread to discuss fifth gen aircrafts and stealth capability? I suggest we can have one If there isn't already

 

[StealthFlanker]

It means that the latest and most advanced aircraft (at that time)

The most advanced aircraft at that time was the B-2 not F-117. The use of continuous curve on B-2 help reduce RCS at low frequency, it can fly longer and carry more bomb than F-117, and the B-2 carry a RWR as well.

was taken out by an obsolete Soviet era S125 and its radar that's in service from 1961. The same rhetoric that people now brag about stealth and advanced tech was also said then, by the US. How is it not embarrassing for the US to have the most modern suppaa supaa stealth aircrafts remains sitting in the Belgrade Museum? Please explain. I do not imagine then armed forces of Yugoslavia were even remotely matched in capability to the mighty USAF.

There is absolutely nothing embarrassing about it. Nothing have 100% reliability, achieving 100% efficiency all the time, especially in a war, stealth is no exception. There are many cases where an older weapon beat a newer one given the right circumstance.

For example: in Vietnam war, the propeller-driven Skyraider shot down Mig-17, not once but twice.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-last-piston-engine-plane-to-shoot-down-a-fighter-jet-2015-1

On 8 August 1952 during the Korean war, Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael, of 802 Squadron, flying a Sea Fury from HMS Ocean, shot a MiG-15 down
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Carmichael

During Indo-Pakistani War in 1971, there was an incident when there was a battle between two Sabres and four MiG-21s results in one MiG was shot down, without any Sabres lost.

Then there are also hundreds of jet aircraft that got shot down by AA cannons which are for all intent and purpose are WW I level technology.


On a more practical note, let imagine you have a gun to defend yourself, one day you go down a dark street and someone stabs you from behind. Would it be a wise choice to switch your gun for a knife because of that incident?. Stealth technology is studied and invested by many countries simply because it works.

link already posted by @Sunstersun. There is also an LM representative talking about combat sorties over Syria by the F22. Let me try to find it.

Did it specifically say F-22 was escorted by F-15 and F-16?

You are not wrong. I never said stealth meant invisible. It's just a lower RCS. And works better in Some angles than others. The last part remains to be seen when the 'fifth gen' aircrafts starts flying regular combat sorties.

But you are wrong about GaN T/R modules being counter to stealth. If anything, it make stealth even more valuable

I will tell you, but isn't it rude not to answer my question first before you put one forward?

I think i made my point pretty clear. New generation aircraft can be shot down by older generation in dogfight, depending on the pilots and tactic used. Big body and small wing generally mean higher wing loading, however, without knowing exact lift coefficient, you cannot estimate ITR, without knowing dynamic thrust and drag coefficient, you cannot estimate STR. In the end comparing two aircraft with different aerodynamic shape using wing loading and T/W is meaningless, you can make a nice powerpoint with it but that all. The F-16 for example has much worse wing loading than F-4 and F-15 but can turn better than both.

 

[StealthFlanker]

All said and done, the F22 was intended to replace the F15. That was the goal. That's what it was developed for. And yet Not only the F15s are still here, the USAF plans to extend the service life of their F-15 fleet. Upgrades are being rolled out to this effect. Why? Why are their service life being extended with comprehensive upgrades instead of them being phased out? Do people think military and financial planners just roll the dice and take these decisions without any reasons?

Because of cost.The same reason China still have loads of J-7, J-8. Why throw aways usable aircraft?. They may not be useful for the most dangerous mission but perfectly capable for low threat environment.

 

[Krusty]

Because of cost.The same reason China still have loads of J-7, J-8. Why throw aways usable aircraft?. They may not be useful for the most dangerous mission but perfectly capable for low threat environment.

USA isn't China. Both countries handle financial matters very differently. So you are saying USA will willingly maintain a fleet of two or more types front line air superiority fighter if it can be helped? OK. I should say that is a very wise analysis. Anyway, I have said what I had to say. People can draw their own conclusion. I do not want to derail this thread anymore. I am already in the crosshairs of mods .

 

[Bahamut]

It works if the distance is very short. It won't work at long distance because the ambiguous physical volume will be too big for coasting missiles to intercept target.
You can theoretically put the IR seeker on a ramjet missile, but here come the second problem: heating of the nose, long-range air to air missiles need to be very fast, the faster you go, the more air will heat the nose up. At altitude of 10 km, standard day, the stagnation temperature at the cone tip will be around
268K for missiles moving at Mach 1
400K for missiles moving at Mach 2
930K for missiles moving at Mach 4

the heat from the nose will reduce signal noise ratio => reduce detection range

So going at Mach 2 is fine but at Mach 4 the detection range of the seeker will reduce quite a bit.
Technically you can do it, but it is super inefficient

There are very fast missiles with IR seeker such as the SM-3,THAAD but their seeker aren't exposed until they are out of atmosphere. You can't do the same for missiles intended to attack aircraft though

That why we use a dual band sensor so we can separate the noise with machine learning and also make it more immune to jamming

 

[StealthFlanker]

That why we use a dual band sensor so we can separate the noise with machine learning and also make it more immune to jamming

RF sensor isn't that effective against VLO target.
Noise here is IR radiation from the dome itself when it got heated making it much harder for the IR detector to see the target, it is different from noise in radio frequency.

 

[Kchontha]

Is this American F35 or F22 thread? Everybody is posting and quoting 2nd hand ideas about these American toys for the past few days. What is this? This total b*llsh**t. Nothing about T 50 or FGFA.

 

[Bahamut]

RF sensor isn't that effective against VLO target.
Noise here is IR radiation from the dome itself when it got heated making it much harder for the IR detector to see the target, it is different from noise in radio frequency.

We can use cocktail party algorithm, by comparing the radiation from the dome in two bands we will know the temperature and the distribution of radiation from the dome and we can separate the noise

 

[TPFscopes]

Guys, Stick with the topic.
If anybody like to discuss anything other than PAK FA and FGFA, must goto another thread.
@StealthFlanker @Krusty @Sunstersun @Dharmapalas @Kay @Armand2REP @Bahamut @Sam Biswas

 

[StealthFlanker]

We can use cocktail party algorithm, by comparing the radiation from the dome in two bands we will know the temperature and the distribution of radiation from the dome and we can separate the noise

Knowing the dome temperature doesn't help achieve anything because the dome will also emit radiation at wavelength similar to aircraft so you can't really distinguish photon to know which one to let interact detector and which one to block.Unlike radar that can use frequency hopping, pulse compression, doppler to separate noise. Anyway, PAK-FA thread is not the best place to discuss this.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Rafale non stealth is out. IAF and IN air wing should stick with LCA, FGFA, AMCA and MIG 29K (IN) during the interim for FOCs to be issued for the three types.

 

[sjmaverick]

Fantastic video absolutely must see (Published in 2016)...analysis from so called Russian expert on various aspects of 5 th gen fighter. Throwing light on why F-35 is not a sitting turkey, where does T-50 stands ..some sort of in-house capability analysis of Russia Vs america in Aircrafts /avionics and weapons. He sounds logical and somewhat informed on the topics he spoke but i am just a layman.

People who have already seen this can ignore, new Joiners for sure should watch as it may answer some of their questions.

@gadeshi is this person a reasonable analyst ?