Sukhoi PAK FA

[BON PLAN]

Only bon plan ?

There are a few under Indian flag also

They are not wrong for that reason.

 

[Superdefender]

@gadeshi , I too don't have any idea how CEO is saying the missiles will be on board the aircraft! I had somewhere read that MKI could barely carry 5 Brohmos-NG, so FGFA can carry safely 4. But all of them will be attached underwings, won't they?

 

[gadeshi]

@gadeshi , I too don't have any idea how CEO is saying the missiles will be on board the aircraft! I had somewhere read that MKI could barely carry 5 Brohmos-NG, so FGFA can carry safely 4. But all of them will be attached underwings, won't they?

MKI can carry only 3 Brahmos - 1 centerline and 2 on the wing roots hardpoints - they are too big and heavy for the other hardpoints and of course it cannot carry 4 of them.
T-50 can carry 3 as well (externally centerline and on wing root points) but the most probably they both can carry 1 Brahmos centerline to not to kill airframe and undercarriage lifetime and plane range / combat radius.
As for Brahmos Mini, it is almost twice smaller and lighter, so MKI and T-50 can carry 5 of them under wings and centerline. However both will carry only 3 for the same reason as I've described above.

 

[Superdefender]

MKI can carry only 3 Brahmos - 1 centerline and 2 on the wing roots hardpoints - they are too big and heavy for the other hardpoints and of course it cannot carry 4 of them.
T-50 can carry 3 as well (externally centerline and on wing root points) but the most probably they both can carry 1 Brahmos centerline to not to kill airframe and undercarriage lifetime and plane range / combat radius.
As for Brahmos Mini, it is almost twice smaller and lighter, so MKI and T-50 can carry 5 of them under wings and centerline. However both will carry only 3 for the same reason as I've described above.

Believe me, I saw an article. I am not saying the article is right. MKI can carry 3 Brahmos!! Are you out of your mind? Each one weighs 3tns! MKI can carry only 1 Brahmos-A (2.5tns) undercarraige and probably 3 Brahmos-NG (1.5tns).

 

[gadeshi]

Believe me, I saw an article. I am not saying the article is right. MKI can carry 3 Brahmos!! Are you out of your mind? Each one weighs 3tns! MKI can carry only 1 Brahmos-A (2.5tns) undercarraige and probably 3 Brahmos-NG (1.5tns).

Just believe me, MKI can carry 12500kg for the cost of some airframe and vast undercarriage lifetime shortage (only 4 flights with such a load to change carriage legs to check and repair them).
But normally 8000kg is absolute maximum, yes.
So it can carry 3 Brahmos-A, but nobody in sane mind will do this without life or death need.
And of course MKI will suffer combat radius shortage and speed/maneurability losses in this case.

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[PaliwalWarrior]

Looking at the strike mission or uses of brahmos I don't think it will be a regular or routine part of any aircrafts weapons package

They will be carried on only particular missions

But it's always nice to have capability built In

 

[gadeshi]

Looking at the strike mission or uses of brahmos I don't think it will be a regular or routine part of any aircrafts weapons package

They will be carried on only particular missions

But it's always nice to have capability built In

Depends on in what cost.

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[SajeevJino]

Why India should dump FGFA project? ​

Like most other Russian projects the FGFA or the PAK-FA is one which is high on promise but low on delivery. The specs for this aircraft promises a lot in terms of technology where the Russians are known to be lacking in capability and even they are unsure about their capacity to deliver. Lets look at specs of the T-50 aircraft which is available in Wikipedia.

Length: 19.8 m (65.0 ft)
Wingspan: 13.95 m (45.8 ft)
Height: 4.74 m (15.6 ft)
Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,680 lb)
Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × NPO Saturn izdeliye 117 (AL-41F1)or initial production, izdeliye 30 for later production thrust vectoring turbofan
Dry thrust: 93.1 kN / 110 kN (21,000 lbf / 24,300 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 147 kN / 176 kN (33,067 lbf / 39,600 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 10,300 kg (22,700 lb)

Engine

The T-50 uses the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 engine with a dry thrust of 93kN.This is quite inadequate. Typically a 5th Generation aircraft with Supercruise as one of the main features should have a engine with a dry thrust of 110 – 120 kN.Such aircraft should not use afterburners because use of afterburners would give away the stealth. The Russians do not possess any proven design for such an engine and even if they come out with one, the result could be similar to that of Su – 30 MKI which has a track record of frequent burn-outs.

Stealth Badly Engineered

There is no clear vision as to how stealth will be achieved, neither does it make heavy use of sloped angles as in F-22 Raptor nor does it make use of composites. The air frame contains a lot of joins which is symbolic of poor construction techniques. Out of 12 weapon hard points 6 are internal and 6 are on the wings. The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered.

India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.

Avionics

The avionics suite as known in public domain is:

Sh121 multi-functional integrated radio electronic system (MIRES)

N079 AESA radar
L402 Himalayas ECM suite built by KNIRTI institute
101KS Atoll electro-optical suite
101KS-O: Laser-based counter-measures against infrared missiles
101KS-V: IRST for airborne targets
101KS-U: Ultraviolet warning sensors
101KS-N: Targeting pod

This looks pretty ordinary and there is nothing which stands out as being uncommon or not available in aircraft of similar nature.

AESA Radar

The N079 is based on the N036 Byelka model, different versions of which were displayed at the MAKS airshow in 2009 and 2013.The radar system developed by Tikhomirov NIIP Institute consists of both X-band and L-band arrays but its performance against leading US models, especially the APG-77(V)2 of F-22A Raptor is unknown and kept secret for obvious reasons.

Russian Trial & Error at India’s Cost

The T-50 is the prototype developed for the Russian Air Force under the PAK-FA project. The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customizations are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.

On 25 January 2016, it was reported that Russia and India have agreed to develop FGFA and lower investment cost to $4 billion for each nation, down from $5.5 billion earlier.

Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks…

Should it cost $4 billion to make some customizations? Informed sources say that it is the cost of development of the entire model and Russia will not invest a single rubble.

In other words Russia is fooling India to fund the development of its 5th Generation fighter aircraft base model i.e.T-50 which will be further developed by them as per their needs.

What will India get?

India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.

Transfer of Technology problems

If we were to assume that Russia would develop a new powerful engine for this aircraft, re-engineer stealth and do every other thing to make it a world-class 5th Generation fighter jet one question still remains. Would it transfer technology to India?

Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks even though India purchased those in large numbers. In the case of Su -30 India placed the first order in 1996 for 50 Russian made Su-30′s.Thereafter several upgrades happened till 2012. On 24 December 2012, India ordered assembly kits for 42 Su-30MKIs by signing a deal during President Putin’s visit to India. This increases India’s order total to 272 Su-30MKIs. Russia didn’t transfer the Engine technology and HAL is dependent on Russia for components to assemble the engine and some spare parts. All this after India paid a whopping $15 Billion to Russia for design, development, CKD’s and SKD’s.

At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.

So it is likely that Russia won’t transfer crucial technology of the new fighter jet making India ever dependent on it for components, spares etc even after spending a hefty $4 Billion on so called” design and development”.

In short the Russians plan is to milk India for the next 30 years, knowing fully well that she needs a 5th Generation fighter jet. The offer of “joint design and development” is just the entry point in their diabolical gameplan.

Conclusion

Recent news suggest that the talks between India and Russia failed to decide on the S-400 surface-to-air missile system. India has stated that it wants to buy the next-generation air and missiles defense system but Russia wants to link the potential purchase to the PAK-FA deal.

This suggests that Russia is aware that its bear hug with respect to the PAK-FA deal may not work, so it is trying to coerce India into it using another deal.

According to India Today, New Delhi has lost confidence in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA effort after Moscow truncated its buy to about a squadron’s worth of jets. The prevailing view within the Indian air force is that if Russia—which is the senior partner—is backing out of the program, then it will be left as the sole operator of an aircraft that largely fails to meet its requirements. Instead of buying PAK-FA, Russia is planning to continue production of advanced Su-30 and Su-35 Flanker variants.

India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA.

In other words, the above is a Russian no-confidence vote against their own product.

If the Russians are not confident about their own product should we repose confidence in it.The answer is a simple no.

At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.

India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA.

Its always better that we spend billions of dollars in training our own scientists and engineers in developing 5th Generation stealth fighter jet technology as it will not only strengthen our defence but also provide jobs to millions of our countrymen.

Quite rightly the Indian MoD, IAF has expressed reservations over this deal and they should now go one step further to dump it.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/why-india-should-dump-fgfa-project/

 

[garg_bharat]

Interesting tirade against FGFA!

The article should contain a line by line comparison with F-22 including costs and also mention if F-22 is available to India at all.

AMCA - where is AMCA. AMCA design? Where is AMCA design? Not even a prototype is there. How can author count the rivets of AMCA?

HAL production technology better than Russians? There is no empirical evidence to suggest this.

Transfer of technology:

India was not ready for Su30 production when HAL started localization. It has taken HAL several years to come up. Blaming a foreign party is very easy but the fact is basic ecosystem of aircraft production is not there in India. Create this ecosystem, then sure localization rate will go up.

HAL likes Western aircraft because it is low-risk. You get kits. You only assemble and test. Poor HAL has to actually build components for Russian models, and these components can fail in service.

The level of FGFA technology transfer can be negotiated. The contract is not yet signed. But the localization will clearly depend on expertise of HAL.

Russia linking S400 to FGFA:

Why not. You want Russian crown jewels. You got to make the deal sweet.

Four billion for development of Fifth generation fighter:

Oh really! We will see how much AMCA costs when it is done? Which fifth generation fighter is developed for four billion dollars?

If IAF bats for AMCA, it will be funny as IAF never bats for an Indian product. So I am very happy that FGFA is around.

 

[garg_bharat]

It is logical to compare F-22 to PAK-FA. But when you make such comparison, you have to include costs, not only capability. Russian goods cost less for less capability.

Sure Russians do not have industrial maturity of the Americans. But this fact is well known. Any surprise?

Is PAK-FA at the level of F-22. No. Is Pak-FA better than Su-30. Yes. Pak-FA is somewhere between Su-35 and F-22.

The plane is under development. Everything is not fixed yet. The first thing is to test the aerodynamics. The stealth comes later.

Engine - sure 50kn of Rafale is good, 93KN of Pak-FA is bad. How?

Hardpoints - the usage depends on mission. It is good that there are extra hardpoints. Why you want to limit to only internal hardpoints?

 

[garg_bharat]

@gadeshi , I too don't have any idea how CEO is saying the missiles will be on board the aircraft! I had somewhere read that MKI could barely carry 5 Brohmos-NG, so FGFA can carry safely 4. But all of them will be attached underwings, won't they?

Is it a bad thing? Does F-22 carry Brahmos NG or equivalent missiles?
A maritime attack with big missiles is a different use.

 

[Superdefender]

@SajeevJino, dry thrust of F-22 is 104-110kN. After izdeliye-30, T-50's thrust will be uprated to 110kN. So no problem in supercruise as it is lighter than F-22. And wet thrust of PAK-FA is much more than that of Raptor.

I know final Su-50's stealth will be still less than Raptor. But stealth fig. of PAK-FA is based on 1st proto T-50-1. West experts are now worried after watching T-50-5R. Please be patience. I bet you will be confused which to select (in stealthiness) between F-22 and T-50-11. Behold.

 

[Superdefender]

Is it a bad thing? Does F-22 carry Brahmos NG or equivalent missiles?
A maritime attack with big missiles is a different use.

No, that CEO is talking about integrating Brahmos-NG in weapon bay (which length is not sufficient). FGFA can carry 5 NGs max. (for demonstration), but that will hamper its performance badly. So in non-stealth missions, it will normally carry 3. So 2 will be attatched each underwing. And one more have to accomodate in int. weapon bay. But how??

 

[garg_bharat]

No, that CEO is talking about integrating Brahmos-NG in weapon bay (which length is not sufficient). FGFA can carry 5 NGs max. (for demonstration), but that will hamper its performance badly. So in non-stealth missions, it will normally carry 3. So 2 will be attatched each underwing. And one more have to accomodate in int. weapon bay. But how??

Weapon can be redesigned to fit the bay. I do not think it is a big issue.

The article quoted is full of mistakes.

Let me make it very clear again. If IAF wants F-22 badly, it should get it. Pak-FA is not F-22. It is very obvious.

Russia is happy with its version of Pak-FA. This will get into RuAF. Even if it is not one-to-one with F-22, it does not matter. Russia has taken the approach of upgrading its existing Su and Mig fleet. Russian factories have reached the limits of their capacity. I doubt Indian order for FGFA will upset the applecart.

Let us consider the alternative. India can buy F-22 and Patriot missile system in place of FGFA and S-400.

Can somebody please work out the cost?
Is it politically feasible in addition to cost?
Can India depend fully on USA?

 

[Superdefender]

Weapon can be redesigned to fit the bay. I do not think it is a big issue.

The article quoted is full of mistakes.

Let me make it very clear again. If IAF wants F-22 badly, it should get it. Pak-FA is not F-22. It is very obvious.

Russia is happy with its version of Pak-FA. This will get into RuAF. Even if it is not one-to-one with F-22, it does not matter. Russia has taken the approach of upgrading its existing Su and Mig fleet. Russian factories have reached the limits of their capacity. I doubt Indian order for FGFA will upset the applecart.

Huh, not a big issue!! Length of Brahmos-NG is 6m and it is not even developed yet. How more smaller can they make it? 5.5m? 5m? But the weapon bay's length is determined by the BVRAAMs it will carry. They can't make more modication to NG. They have to increase the bay and it's not an easy task.

 

[garg_bharat]

Huh, not a big issue!! Length of Brahmos-NG is 6m and it is not even developed yet. How more smaller can they make it? 5.5m? 5m? But the weapon bay's length is determined by the BVRAAMs it will carry. They can't make more modication to NG. They have to increase the bay and it's not an easy task.

The aircraft cannot be redesigned.
So let us say it will not carry Brahmos NG in the bay. Now get F-22 to carry it.
Happy now!
Or ask Dassault to make a bay in Rafale for you.

 

[gadeshi]

Huh, not a big issue!! Length of Brahmos-NG is 6m and it is not even developed yet. How more smaller can they make it? 5.5m? 5m? But the weapon bay's length is determined by the BVRAAMs it will carry. They can't make more modication to NG. They have to increase the bay and it's not an easy task.

Come down guys.
Any weapon designed for PAK FA MWBs cannot be heavier than 755kg according to "heavy" UVKU-50U catapult launcher specs.
Max length must not be more than 4,5m.

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[Neelkanth]

@SajeevJino, dry thrust of F-22 is 104-110kN. After izdeliye-30, T-50's thrust will be uprated to 110kN. So no problem in supercruise as it is lighter than F-22. And wet thrust of PAK-FA is much more than that of Raptor.

I know final Su-50's stealth will be still less than Raptor. But stealth fig. of PAK-FA is based on 1st proto T-50-1. West experts are now worried after watching T-50-5R. Please be patience. I bet you will be confused which to select (in stealthiness) between F-22 and T-50-11. Behold.

That new engine is nowhere near fruition. Seriously Doubt if Russia has the Cash to develop it, the development had hilt a halt 6-7 months ago (got from freind who is in the Russian spares supply chain), it will only be delayed further. and RuAF aslo has concerns on the stealth of the T50, orders are low. We should wait a bit further, and if nothing works out, can go ahead with AMCA design with Israel and Japan as an alternative.

 

[garg_bharat]

With Israel and Japan? Very interesting.

All the best!

 

[gadeshi]

With Israel and Japan? Very interesting.

All the best!

Developping AMCA with airspace outsiders is very wise, what to say

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