Sukhoi PAK FA

[Bornubus]

3 Brahmos on a Sukhoi means one BRDM 2 (with crew) as it has less weight than 3 Brahmos.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Dear Sajeev,
IF we do dump FGFA then which 5th gen fighter do you propose to take on the J20/J31 which China has? Moreover which 5th Gen plane has not faced all the below mentioned "TROUBLES" you are alleging against FGFA. The more I read about F-35's development troubles the more I worry whether India can actually deliver the AMBITIOUS and far fetched AMCA !! And over and above everything else which 5th Gen fighter will be a cheaper option than FGFA! Only FGFA will give us the option of delivering a Bhramos (Our most feared weapon against China or PAkistan) Astra or Nirbhay which I am sure the Russians will help us integrate!

I am no fan of FGFA but please elaborate on the above points and I will throw my weight with you!

Why India should dump FGFA project? ​

Like most other Russian projects the FGFA or the PAK-FA is one which is high on promise but low on delivery. The specs for this aircraft promises a lot in terms of technology where the Russians are known to be lacking in capability and even they are unsure about their capacity to deliver. Lets look at specs of the T-50 aircraft which is available in Wikipedia.

Length: 19.8 m (65.0 ft)
Wingspan: 13.95 m (45.8 ft)
Height: 4.74 m (15.6 ft)
Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,680 lb)
Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × NPO Saturn izdeliye 117 (AL-41F1)or initial production, izdeliye 30 for later production thrust vectoring turbofan
Dry thrust: 93.1 kN / 110 kN (21,000 lbf / 24,300 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 147 kN / 176 kN (33,067 lbf / 39,600 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 10,300 kg (22,700 lb)

Engine

The T-50 uses the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 engine with a dry thrust of 93kN.This is quite inadequate. Typically a 5th Generation aircraft with Supercruise as one of the main features should have a engine with a dry thrust of 110 – 120 kN.Such aircraft should not use afterburners because use of afterburners would give away the stealth. The Russians do not possess any proven design for such an engine and even if they come out with one, the result could be similar to that of Su – 30 MKI which has a track record of frequent burn-outs.

Stealth Badly Engineered

There is no clear vision as to how stealth will be achieved, neither does it make heavy use of sloped angles as in F-22 Raptor nor does it make use of composites. The air frame contains a lot of joins which is symbolic of poor construction techniques. Out of 12 weapon hard points 6 are internal and 6 are on the wings. The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered.

India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.

Avionics

The avionics suite as known in public domain is:

Sh121 multi-functional integrated radio electronic system (MIRES)

N079 AESA radar
L402 Himalayas ECM suite built by KNIRTI institute
101KS Atoll electro-optical suite
101KS-O: Laser-based counter-measures against infrared missiles
101KS-V: IRST for airborne targets
101KS-U: Ultraviolet warning sensors
101KS-N: Targeting pod

This looks pretty ordinary and there is nothing which stands out as being uncommon or not available in aircraft of similar nature.

AESA Radar

The N079 is based on the N036 Byelka model, different versions of which were displayed at the MAKS airshow in 2009 and 2013.The radar system developed by Tikhomirov NIIP Institute consists of both X-band and L-band arrays but its performance against leading US models, especially the APG-77(V)2 of F-22A Raptor is unknown and kept secret for obvious reasons.

Russian Trial & Error at India’s Cost

The T-50 is the prototype developed for the Russian Air Force under the PAK-FA project. The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customizations are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.

On 25 January 2016, it was reported that Russia and India have agreed to develop FGFA and lower investment cost to $4 billion for each nation, down from $5.5 billion earlier.

Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks…

Should it cost $4 billion to make some customizations? Informed sources say that it is the cost of development of the entire model and Russia will not invest a single rubble.

In other words Russia is fooling India to fund the development of its 5th Generation fighter aircraft base model i.e.T-50 which will be further developed by them as per their needs.

What will India get?

India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.

Transfer of Technology problems

If we were to assume that Russia would develop a new powerful engine for this aircraft, re-engineer stealth and do every other thing to make it a world-class 5th Generation fighter jet one question still remains. Would it transfer technology to India?

Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks even though India purchased those in large numbers. In the case of Su -30 India placed the first order in 1996 for 50 Russian made Su-30′s.Thereafter several upgrades happened till 2012. On 24 December 2012, India ordered assembly kits for 42 Su-30MKIs by signing a deal during President Putin’s visit to India. This increases India’s order total to 272 Su-30MKIs. Russia didn’t transfer the Engine technology and HAL is dependent on Russia for components to assemble the engine and some spare parts. All this after India paid a whopping $15 Billion to Russia for design, development, CKD’s and SKD’s.

At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.

So it is likely that Russia won’t transfer crucial technology of the new fighter jet making India ever dependent on it for components, spares etc even after spending a hefty $4 Billion on so called” design and development”.

In short the Russians plan is to milk India for the next 30 years, knowing fully well that she needs a 5th Generation fighter jet. The offer of “joint design and development” is just the entry point in their diabolical gameplan.

Conclusion

Recent news suggest that the talks between India and Russia failed to decide on the S-400 surface-to-air missile system. India has stated that it wants to buy the next-generation air and missiles defense system but Russia wants to link the potential purchase to the PAK-FA deal.

This suggests that Russia is aware that its bear hug with respect to the PAK-FA deal may not work, so it is trying to coerce India into it using another deal.

According to India Today, New Delhi has lost confidence in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA effort after Moscow truncated its buy to about a squadron’s worth of jets. The prevailing view within the Indian air force is that if Russia—which is the senior partner—is backing out of the program, then it will be left as the sole operator of an aircraft that largely fails to meet its requirements. Instead of buying PAK-FA, Russia is planning to continue production of advanced Su-30 and Su-35 Flanker variants.

India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA.

In other words, the above is a Russian no-confidence vote against their own product.

If the Russians are not confident about their own product should we repose confidence in it.The answer is a simple no.

At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.

India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA.

Its always better that we spend billions of dollars in training our own scientists and engineers in developing 5th Generation stealth fighter jet technology as it will not only strengthen our defence but also provide jobs to millions of our countrymen.

Quite rightly the Indian MoD, IAF has expressed reservations over this deal and they should now go one step further to dump it.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/why-india-should-dump-fgfa-project/

 

[garg_bharat]

Amca is not even designed, and it is already better than fgfa. These are childish statements nothing more.

The immediate focus is to put LCA into squadron service. There is zero visibility on amca. Nobody even knows if amca project will deliver a usable fighter.

Amca will be evaluated once it starts flying and data is available.

 

[Bahamut]

That new engine is nowhere near fruition. Seriously Doubt if Russia has the Cash to develop it, the development had hilt a halt 6-7 months ago (got from freind who is in the Russian spares supply chain), it will only be delayed further. and RuAF aslo has concerns on the stealth of the T50, orders are low. We should wait a bit further, and if nothing works out, can go ahead with AMCA design with Israel and Japan as an alternative.

Read this link
Link:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/aero-india-upgraded-t-50-pak-fa-powerplant-in-rig-409258/

 

[Bahamut]

Typically a 5th Generation aircraft with Supercruise as one of the main features should have a engine with a dry thrust of 110 – 120 kN.Such aircraft should not use afterburners because use of afterburners would give away the stealth.

With the present engine PAK FA can super cruise.The engine is in test phase and

There is no clear vision as to how stealth will be achieved, neither does it make heavy use of sloped angles as in F-22 Raptor nor does it make use of composites. The air frame contains a lot of joins which is symbolic of poor construction techniques.

Composite are 25% by weight and cover 75 % of surface.RAM is not internal in structure but is applied which is cheaper and easier to maintain .Even F 35 has the same .PAK FA has the best side profile.

Out of 12 weapon hard points 6 are internal and 6 are on the wings. The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered.

F 22 has even less no of hard points .The 6 on the wings can be removed ,if the enemy does have a formidable air force and air defense then it can sacrifice stealth and carry more weapons ,it is more flexible.Even F 35 has it.

This looks pretty ordinary and there is nothing which stands out as being uncommon or not available in aircraft of similar nature

What do you want in it ?X ray vision.Wait for 10 yrs ,it will also have a photonic radar.
It is packet with passive and active sensor ,it is design from the start as a stealth fighter killer.

Russia didn’t transfer the Engine technology and HAL is dependent on Russia for components to assemble the engine and some spare parts. All this after India paid a whopping $15 Billion to Russia for design, development, CKD’s and SKD’s.

HAL that increase the cost of Su 30 MKI by 100% and takes 100% more time to build it.Time a orivate manufacture to set in .Does India has facility to make such engine ? No ,even if get a ToT for engine then we need to buy the raw materials and machinery from them .It will cost even more and the price will sky rocket. The decision to import engine and other critical components was to make sure the cost remains low.

According to India Today, New Delhi has lost confidence in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA effort after Moscow truncated its buy to about a squadron’s worth of jets. The prevailing view within the Indian air force is that if Russia—which is the senior partner—is backing out of the program, then it will be left as the sole operator of an aircraft that largely fails to meet its requirements. Instead of buying PAK-FA, Russia is planning to continue production of advanced Su-30 and Su-35 Flanker variants.

PAK FA and LMFS are the future of RuAF,see the comets of their deputy PM .T 50 is way more adavance and cheaper to run then Su 30 and Su 35.The order for 18 jet is there because after that they will get anew engine in 2020,it only logical that if the engine is to be replace in 4 years,you order less of the previous type to save money.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

The US approach has been more stealth at the cost of manovarability

The Russian approach has been manoeuvrability at the cost of stealth

So no point in comparing the US rußsian aircrafts on those points with each other

 

[garg_bharat]

American stealth of F-22 is very very expensive, both initial cost and operating cost. Can India afford it?
Does India even need F-22?

These kind of articles will keep on appearing as a section of IAF has convinced itself that it wants Rafale, nothing else.

In real life, an F-18 or Su-30 will have better performance than Rafale.

 

[Neelkanth]

Read this link
Link:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/aero-india-upgraded-t-50-pak-fa-powerplant-in-rig-409258/

Article Dated February 2015. A year ago, I would have agreed with you. There has been a total info black out on engine development for the past year and Russia is still involved in fighting on Multiple battle fronts and went almost bankrupt. My info states the development is stalled and Indian money/order is now Critical to the engine.

The T-50 is a platform but is as on date it still seems taking baby steps :
Questions to ponder upon :
Why $8 billion (that is LOT of money) is required for further development of the PAK-FA ?
Will they sell us an FGFA or just a T-50 with a paint job?
Do we get IPRs for the air-frame and are fee to integrate western Engines/Israeli Avionics if we wish to ?
(We are paying a lot of money, don't want it to the MTA way.. do we ?)
Why has the Russian Air Force reduced its order ?
Why is the IAF critical of the current PAK-FA?

 

[garg_bharat]

@Neelkanth
Point 1: Did India pay any money till date? If no, who pays for development till date?

Point 2: Will they sell us an FGFA or just a T-50 with a paint job?: Speculation

Point 3: Do we get IPRs for the air-frame and are free to integrate western Engines: No. It is joint IPR - collaborative effort. You cannot change without Russian approval. Same as Brahmos.

Point 4: Why Russian air force reduced its order - speculation. It is initial order. Russia has decided to focus on upgrading its current fleet as this is the fastest way of meeting its security challenges. RuAF cannot put all its eggs in one basket. Of course IAF is "different".

Point 5: Why is the IAF critical of the current PAK-FA?: Ask IAF.

 

[Superdefender]

FGFA.Tehnology demonstrator will rise into the air in 2018
03/31/2016 Altai Star
FGFA.Tehnology demonstrator will rise into the air in 2018

The first technology demonstrator (First Technology Demonstrator) fighter military aircraft designed primarily to destroy air targets fifth generation FGFA rise into the air is a natural mixture of gases (mainly nitrogen and oxygen - in the amount of 98-99%, as well as argon, carbon dioxide, water, hydrogen), which forms the earth's atmosphere in 2018, according to "military parity" with reference to AMCA- India's first indigenous stealth fighter (March 30).

Also, the source reported that the completed work on the formation of the contract for the creation of a full-scale fighter. Commentators news regret that the program was delayed for so long, and are interested in what type of engine will be used in the FGFA - an existing product, or the second stage.

According to the data on en.wikipedia.org, in February 2009, then-CEO of the company "Sukhoi" Mikhail Pogosyan Pogosyants (arm said that India will be the same fighter as the base Russian T-50 PAKFA, except for the differences in the software. In 2010, both countries had planned to purchase 250 aircraft (a total of 500 cars Russian name), in the same year, Pogosyan said that within 40 years will be produced 1,000 aircraft, of which 200 will receive Russian and Indian Air Force official name - the Republic of India (Hindi भारत गणराज्य, eng.

According to others, the registered information: 439; representation of facts, concepts or instructions in a form suitable for communication, interpretation, or processing by human or automatic means (ISO / IEC / IEEE 24765-2010), in 2011, a common unit of measurement of time, which has historically meant a single cycle of the seasons (spring , summer, autumn, winter) India planned to buy 214 aircraft - 148 single rooms and 66 double rooms. In October 2012, the country has moderated appetite to 144 cars. In 2015, there were reports that the country's air force territory having certain political (political of the country), the climate (the climate of the country and the region), cultural (culture of the country and the region), or historical boundaries (historical country and region) are going to limit ourselves to about 50 or 65 aircraft . In turn, in 2015 the Russian Defense Ministry officially as the Russian Federation (used in practice and the Russian abbreviation) - a country in Eastern Europe and North Asia voiced procurement plans for 55 aircraft aircraft intended to fly in the atmosphere with the help of the power plant, creating cravings and stationary relative to the other parts of the wing apparatus that creates a lifting force up to 2020, then the number has been reduced to 12.


Posted here after translation.
Source Link: http://звезда-алтая.рф/fgfa-tekhnologicheskijj-demonstrator-podnimetsya-v-vozdukh-v-2018-godu/32664

 

[garg_bharat]

Well India has not yet approved the contract. So any date for first flight of FGFA is theoretical.

This article looks like recycled information.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Subhranil Basu Ray
Senior Software Engineer having worked in MNC's like SIEMENS and Atos. He is also an Analyst on Defence and Foreign Policy issues

Read more at:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news/why-india-should-dump-fgfa-project/

Am a bit worried about the software engineer part !

 

[garg_bharat]

It is a planted article. Perfectly normal for our "free press" which usually publishes planted stories.

The article may have been written by somebody else but published in this guy's name.

 

[Neelkanth]

The first technology demonstrator (First Technology Demonstrator) fighter military aircraft designed primarily to destroy air targets fifth generation FGFA rise into the air is a natural mixture of gases (mainly nitrogen and oxygen - in the amount of 98-99%, as well as argon, carbon dioxide, water, hydrogen), which forms the earth's atmosphere in 2018, according to "military parity" with reference to AMCA- India's first indigenous stealth fighter (March 30).

Da Faq ??

Lost in translation ?

 

[Tactical Frog]

Seriously, the bigger issue as correctly pointed in this piece is money . $ 4 billion R&D for customizing the Russian design, really ?!

 

[garg_bharat]

Seriously, the bigger issue as correctly pointed in this piece is money . $ 4 billion R&D for customizing the Russian design, really ?!

Please give us Rafale IPR for 4 billion. We shall pay you cash right now.

It is impossible to get a 4,5 gen in 4B, you forget 5 gen.

People are dreaming about AMCA. The fact is none of the tech for AMCA has even begun development. Nobody knows the cost or time.

AMCA development time can be collapsed by using imported components, but of course we have no IPR for those.

 

[Superdefender]

Da Faq ??

Lost in translation ?

Open the link I provided, then translate the page and see yourself the translation.

 

[garg_bharat]

I shall give you one example. LCA engine is 100% imported. Su30 engine is 55% local by value as per HAL admission.

HAL can increase local percentage of Su30 engine but it does not have industrial knowledge and capability for the rest.

AMCA engine can also be imported. This will save time. However it completely defeats the purpose of building an Indian fighter.

 

[Neelkanth]

Open the link I provided, then translate the page and see yourself the translation.

Yep, Its written in the original article itself. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Bahamut]

There has been a total info black out on engine development for the past year

It does not that progress is not going on .

Russia is still involved in fighting on Multiple battle fronts and went almost bankrupt.

How are the near bankrupt.

Why $8 billion (that is LOT of money) is required for further development of the PAK-FA ?

A new engine , new weapons ,QWIP equipped IRST and two ,GaN equipped is ASER and more sensor and photonic radar ,it comes at a cost .It is still cheap compare to F 35

Will they sell us an FGFA or just a T-50 with a paint job?

We make FGFA ,HAL will do some changes mainly avionic

Do we get IPRs for the air-frame and are fee to integrate western Engines/Israeli Avionics if we wish to ?

Its has open structure ,we can add anything that fits in it, but with approval

We are paying a lot of money, don't want it to the MTA way.. do we ?)

IAF when the design phase was completed asked for a new engine ,then Russian asked for money and it turned out no one had the money in short term,what IAF is talked about in a upgrade but IAF want its now and our participation was frozen ,we need to renegotiate the contract and it will be done,India will get a lot of tech form it ,it is next gen lifter and I donot think so we let it go that easy .

Why has the Russian Air Force reduced its order ?
Why is the IAF critical of the current PAK-FA?

I told you ,if the engine will be replace in less then 5 years,why order the air frame with older engine
They are talks of allow a IAF pilot to fly the prototype in Russia ,only then IAF will get a good idea but till now it has been with engine only,but not in specify