Sukhoi PAK FA

[ersakthivel]

As long as IAF has been briefed about FGFA and is satisfied on it then there is no issue , Recent quotes from IAF has expressed displeasure on workshare and not on performance/parameter of FGFA.

Either way there is no way to know unless the official speaks up on what the end product called FGFA would look like and what the final arrangment of work share will be ..... probably it may just follow the tested MKI model of gradual indiginisation over period of time but thats my thinking and I could well be wrong too.

We know so little on the final specs of IAF MKI and what incremental changes are done , its probably an NDA clause between IAF and Vendor so the chances of knowing what FGFA has is still less beyond the generics.

When HAL even the 50-50 joint venture partner in R&D and production of FGFA does not know about the engine then how is the IAF expected to know any thing about it?

Right now there is no clarity on the specs of FGFA in public domain.That is the problem and A. K. Antony is struggling with the Russian government to get 50 percent design activity share in FGFA.

It will be good for every one if some clarity emerges on these issues as early as possible.

 

[Sridhar]

http://rt.com/news/t50-missile-advanced-guidance-643/

 

[Austin]

^^ Thats the old R-77 Adder

 

[gadeshi]

Original message about DAESA (Digital AESA) missiles seekers:
Истребитель пятого поколения Т-50 оснастят цифровыми ракетами
'Absolute killer' air-to-air missile readied for Russian 5G fighter jet — RT News

 

[p2prada]

I am not sure if HAL Chairman knows what he is talking about , the 117 Engine is dimensionally similar to AL-31 series engine that was the design requirement but compared to AL-31FP of Su-30MKI or even 117S of Su-35 , the new engine is 117 has 80 % new components , longer life 6000 hrs IIRC and higher MTBO.

117 in current form of PAK-FA meets all the criteria of 5th Gen engine and the 2nd Stage Engine is categorized as 5 plus.

The HAL chairman is right. Regardless of all the modifications the AL-31 has undergone to become the 117, it is still yesterday's technology. Even if 80% of the components were changed to new ones, the technology itself is still the same, it just uses better materials.

This also supports my previous post before that 15 tons is not enough power for PAKFA and that it will be uprated in order to complete tests and deliver IOC aircraft.

Id 30 is the first of a new generation of engines. If you consider M88-3 ECO, EJ-200, F-119 and F-135 to be next generation engines, Id 30 is on a whole different level, more comparable to YF-120.

Different countries treat the generation term differently. Dassault considers Rafale next generation, while Lockheed considers the F-35 next generation. Strictly speaking, if we use Dassault's use of next generation, then F-35 would actually fall into a capability bracket that exceeds Rafale considerably and renders their definition of generations meaningless for comparison.

Considering that, even the most advanced engine versions of the F-135 and F-119 will fall short of the capability of the Id 30. For reasons unknown, the USAF rejected the possibly superior YF-120 for the YF-119, a conventional engine. Regardless, Id 30 will be the most advanced 5th gen around for the time being until the Americans get a new aircraft flying by the next decade with newer engine technologies.

From what we know to date, the Russians had originally announced that Id 30 will undergo bench tests in 2014 and has been pushed back to 2015. Flight tests will happen in 2016, which means an IOC version will be ready only in 2018 (according to HAL chairman). This means the final FGFA prototype would actually be ready in 2019 while the engine will achieve FOC with the VVS well before 2021. This would allow HAL to MKIze the FGFA by 2021 for IOC with the aircraft equipped with the new engine.

 

[Austin]

Materials is what makes the engine , without use of exotic alloys one cant get better performance.

I am not sure what leads any one to says 117 engine is not good enough or PAK-FA needs higher rated thrust ... we do not know the NTOW/MTOW of the aircraft as well as how improved aerodynamics mean one can achieve the same performance figure with a lower thrust engine impacting fuel.

What is the possibility that PAK-FA Mark 2 with new Id 30 engine wont be heavier and hence higher thrust is compensating for it as well as flat nozzle that needs compensation.

Engine gen can be decided by T:W Ratio , Engine Life and SFC of engine ...... we know that the T:W ratio of 117 is 10:5 and Engine Life is 6000 hrs dont know the last parameter.

F-22 engine has T:W ratio of 8:1 making it comparable to AL-31FP or similar western engine .....should be conclude F-22 has old ( 4th )gen engine for a 5th gen fighter ?

 

[gadeshi]

@Austin, Not an alloys, but polymetallic compounds
No alloy can survive 2000K before turbine more than 100hrs, which Chinese demonstrate for now - 1000hrs of engine lifetime with 100hrs inter-repair periods (with complete blades exchange during repair).

 

[gadeshi]

 

[Austin]

@Austin, Not an alloys, but polymetallic compounds
No alloy can survive 2000K before turbine more than 100hrs, which Chinese demonstrate for now - 1000hrs of engine lifetime with 100hrs inter-repair periods (with complete blades exchange during repair).

What was the inlet temp for Iz 30 , was it 2050K or 2200 K ?

 

[gadeshi]

Item 30 will have 2200K before turbine, G6 engines will have 2400K, which is theoretical limit for Brighton cycle.

Any alloy is a GETEROGENEOUS MIX of different metals/non-metals, which cannot form a uniform seamless single-crystal. They can form grain or track based single crystals, which are proven to be useless in the middle 80-s in SU and USA both.

As only the homogenious essence can form seamless single-crystals, all the engine manufacturing countries have invented bi-metallic (AlTi, Titanium Aluminide - G4 engines) compounds, which are metal-metallic SALTS (Aluminium salt of Titan, got from high temperature substitution chemical reaction, not melting, where Titanium is actually a metal and Aluminium is a halogen).

Aluminium gives the Titanium parts more uniform heat conductivity which prevents AlTi parts from partial non-uniform hit-cold zones where Titanium cracks.

G5 engines have polymetallic AlTi blades with Rhenium or Rutenium atoms placed into the crystal grid nodes substituting Al or Ti atoms by a special scheme.

These technologies are a truly scientific miracles, because they are impossible from the traditional chemistry point of view. The new science branch was invented to do them - Quantum Phisical Chemistry.

All the Chinese claims for "super alloys" inventions shows that if they still bother with alloys, they remain on the late 70-s or early 80-s technical levels.

 

[p2prada]

Materials is what makes the engine , without use of exotic alloys one cant get better performance.

I am not sure what leads any one to says 117 engine is not good enough or PAK-FA needs higher rated thrust ... we do not know the NTOW/MTOW of the aircraft as well as how improved aerodynamics mean one can achieve the same performance figure with a lower thrust engine impacting fuel.

MTOW of PAKFa is known. It is 33 tonnes.

We don't know the design goals of PAKFA either. So, we don't know what the final product will be like.

Current generation Russian jets already match or even significantly exceed current generation European jets like EF and Rafale. For eg: MKI has a sustained turn rate of 24deg/s, IAF MRCA requirement asked for a STR of 24deg/s. According to a report, only the American jets failed this requirement. So, the expectations of PAKFA would be different and obviously higher, where an engine with a TWR of 10.5 may be inadequate.

What is the possibility that PAK-FA Mark 2 with new Id 30 engine wont be heavier and hence higher thrust is compensating for it as well as flat nozzle that needs compensation.

Id 30 will not be heavier. According to Saturn Id 30 will be 30% lighter than 117 and with 30% more thrust. The engine removes a lot of extra stages. F-100 has 10 stages, Al-31 has 9 stages, Id 30 will have only 6 stages.

Whether PAKFA by itself will get heavier, we don't know that. For eg: There was this recent report that FGFA will be lighter than PAKFA because they plan on replacing the metal parts on the bird with composites. So, we can expect PAKFA Mk2 to be lighter as well, especially considering FGFA will be carrying the Id 30 engine while PAKFA Mk1 will carry the 117. FGFA will also carry extra electronics compared to PAKFA like rear facing radar which means PAKFA Mk2 has the potential of actually being lighter than FGFA and PAKFA Mk1.

Engine gen can be decided by T:W Ratio , Engine Life and SFC of engine ...... we know that the T:W ratio of 117 is 10:5 and Engine Life is 6000 hrs dont know the last parameter.

F-22 engine has T:W ratio of 8:1 making it comparable to AL-31FP or similar western engine .....should be conclude F-22 has old ( 4th )gen engine for a 5th gen fighter ?

There will be more to defining a new generation engine. For eg: The basic design of the Id 30 itself will be significantly different from F-119 and other so-called 5th gen engines. Id 30 will be a variable cycle engine. That means SFC values will change considerably based on the altitudes and speeds the aircraft will fly in. Unlike conventional engines, the variable cycle engine will switch between low specific thrust and high specific thrust based on the need.

 

[gadeshi]

@p2prada:

We don't know the design goals of PAKFA either. So, we don't know what the final product will be like.

Wrong, VVS wants a PAK FA as FDOW agressor / interdictor. FDOW agressor is F-22 primary role, interdictor is a new thing, targeted to fight a strong enemy forces.

All the claims PAK FA is multiroller are advertisement for foreign marketing only. Really, if it can use air and ground attack weapons with sufficient targeting for them, it is a multiroller by the books. But its truly role is FDOW interdictor, even rather than agressor.

So, knowing the role, we can speak about some key features of the bird.

 

[p2prada]

Wrong, VVS wants a PAK FA as FDOW agressor / interdictor. FDOW agressor is F-22 primary role, interdictor is a new thing, targeted to fight a strong enemy forces.

No, I wasn't simply speaking of roles. In that respect, F-4 is the same as PAKFA. Doesn't mean we can compare them can we?

I was talking about more specific aspects like what could be the STR, ITR goals, how fast it can climb, how fast it can accelerate etc. For all that we don't know if 15 tons is enough or not.

 

[asianobserve]

 

[Defcon 1]

MTOW of PAKFa is known. It is 33 tonnes.

We don't know the design goals of PAKFA either. So, we don't know what the final product will be like.

Current generation Russian jets already match or even significantly exceed current generation European jets like EF and Rafale. For eg: MKI has a sustained turn rate of 24deg/s, IAF MRCA requirement asked for a STR of 24deg/s. According to a report, only the American jets failed this requirement. So, the expectations of PAKFA would be different and obviously higher, where an engine with a TWR of 10.5 may be inadequate.



Id 30 will not be heavier. According to Saturn Id 30 will be 30% lighter than 117 and with 30% more thrust. The engine removes a lot of extra stages. F-100 has 10 stages, Al-31 has 9 stages, Id 30 will have only 6 stages.

Whether PAKFA by itself will get heavier, we don't know that. For eg: There was this recent report that FGFA will be lighter than PAKFA because they plan on replacing the metal parts on the bird with composites. So, we can expect PAKFA Mk2 to be lighter as well, especially considering FGFA will be carrying the Id 30 engine while PAKFA Mk1 will carry the 117. FGFA will also carry extra electronics compared to PAKFA like rear facing radar which means PAKFA Mk2 has the potential of actually being lighter than FGFA and PAKFA Mk1.



There will be more to defining a new generation engine. For eg: The basic design of the Id 30 itself will be significantly different from F-119 and other so-called 5th gen engines. Id 30 will be a variable cycle engine. That means SFC values will change considerably based on the altitudes and speeds the aircraft will fly in. Unlike conventional engines, the variable cycle engine will switch between low specific thrust and high specific thrust based on the need.

U saying all three deltas beat F16 on STR? I need to see this report. please post the link

 

[p2prada]

U saying all three deltas beat F16 on STR? I need to see this report. please post the link

This F-16 is different from the F-16 we all know of. Block 60 carries CFTs.

Anyway, the report is part of Ashley Tellis' works. I don't have this link. I just remember it.

But yeah, all three eurocanards are "significantly" superior in turn rates compared to even the F-16 B50/52.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

K-77 m Air-to-Air missile for PAK/FA
'Absolute killer' air-to-air missile readied for Russian 5G fighter jet | idrw.org

 

[gadeshi]

K-77M is not the missile for PAK FA. It is a further modernization of the old K-77 with folding grid-shaped fins.
There is Izdelie 180 (Item 180) missile with generic flat fins (AIM-120 like) and lifting body buggels which is under spare testting for PAK FA.
According to Boris Obnosov (KTRV CIO/CEO), it will be ready for fire tests in late 2014.

 

[Austin]

In the book Russian Air Power by Yefim Gordon , he mentioned two AAM under development R77M with range of 140 km and RVV-PD which is ramjet variant with a range of 250 km.

I read long term they have LRAAM under development for PAK-FA which would replace RVV-BD , RVV-BD is more like stop gap measure derived from R-37M which is primarily an anti-AWACS , anti-JSTAR missile for Mig-31M

 

[gadeshi]

Efim Gordon is very controversal author.
We call him "Efim Gandon" (Efim The Condom) for his materials "quality", so...

I prefere to beleive in manufacturers CEO words rather than some journalamers rave...

PS: The missiles which Gordon speaks of are not implemented projects, abandoned in favour of more promissing Item 180 family in the early 2000