Sukhoi PAK FA

[ersakthivel]

U saying all three deltas beat F16 on STR? I need to see this report. please post the link

Most of the modern 5thgen and 4.5 the gen planes are deltas only.

The moment Mirage-2000 demoed in airshows all new 4.5 the gen designs are deltas.

Noit pure deltas, either compound or canard or cranked deltak.

Pure deltas suffer loos of lift at high AOA due to boundary layer separation over upper wing surfaces.

This is why people keep on saying deltas bleed energy.

But cranked deltas, and canard deltas use the lift inducing vortex generation of extra attachments they have such as canards, Levcons, Lrex , cranked delta or double delta to generate that vortex and delay boundary layer separation at high AOA.

Once this boundary layer separation was solved by vortex generation low wing loading RSS cranked or canard deltas will always have an edge over any other wing form and they will naturally have higher STR, ITR.

Even F-16 is a cropped delta with LREX for vortex generation.

 

[Austin]

Efim Gordon is very controversal author.
We call him "Efim Gandon" (Efim The Condom) for his materials "quality", so...

I prefere to beleive in manufacturers CEO words rather than some journalamers rave...

PS: The missiles which Gordon speaks of are not implemented projects, abandoned in favour of more promissing Item 180 family in the early 2000

I am surprised you say that , Yefim Gordon book as very reliable piece of work for the English speaking world.

The information available along with pictures in Yefim Gordon series is simply Splendid & Awesome .....Second to None

I dont expect his to be right on every information he puts up in the book and same goes for any author but his is one of the better author out there along with Pitor and few other

Did you read his book on Russian Strategic Air Force and Russian Air Power ?

 

[gadeshi]

@Austin, I've read the books about Su-27 and the other plane-dedicated books of Gordon and there were enough to make the oppinion.
And this oppinion is not only mine, but all the even small-competent aviation fans in the Russian speaking community as well.

Efim Gordon's books are pure commercial products, that's why they are quickly translated into English and many other languages - just to make quick money. All the Russian aviation enthusiasts prefere to read books from true aviation engineeres, who have participated in the process rather than books of some journalist and "analyst" from the word "anal".
Yeah, his books have some quality photos, but their captions are often wrong and bring more chaos rather than order.

 

[gadeshi]

 

[Austin]

Promising lightweight fighter will be created in Russia, told Rogozin
Перспективный легкий истребитель будет создан в РФ, сообщил Рогозин | РИА Новости

Promising lightweight fighter would soon establish in Russia, said on Wednesday Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, at the plenary session in the State Duma.

"There is already a task to create a weapons program promising lightweight fighter - it will be created," - said Rogozin, responding to a question from one of the deputies.

Deputy Prime Minister noted that the lightweight fighters are most in demand, it is better to buy abroad.

"Light Fighter always most in demand in terms of export potential - its more likely to buy, that's MiG-29, for example, it is certainly superior to the heavy fighters, but today we have already completely untwisted production enterprise" Irkut "- a Su-30cm we produce Su-35s in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, PAK FA - we have 5 samples "- said Rogozin, noting that Russia has always tried to combine the production of light and heavy fighters.

 

[ersakthivel]

QUOTE=Austin;825564]Promising lightweight fighter will be created in Russia, told Rogozin
Перспективный легкий истребитель будет создан в РФ, сообщил Рогозин | РИА Новости[/QUOTE]


I remember one particular technocrat(?!?!?) in ADA Tejas IV thread in this same DFI ,

that light fighters are history,

And it is stupid to produce light fighters,

as all light fighters will be whoop whooped by HEAVY CLASS fighters in all future conflicts.

But atleast the Russian deputy PM does not think so,

 

[Decklander]

QUOTE=Austin;825564]Promising lightweight fighter will be created in Russia, told Rogozin
Перспективный легкий истребитель будет создан в РФ, сообщил Рогозин | РИА Новости

I remember one particular technocrat(?!?!?) in ADA Tejas IV thread in this same DFI ,

that light fighters are history,

And it is stupid to produce light fighters,

as all light fighters will be whoop whooped by HEAVY CLASS fighters in all future conflicts.

But atleast the Russian deputy PM does not think so,[/QUOTE]


wait for my design to come out. It is progressing very well.

 

[bhramos]

self delete already posted link....

 

[gadeshi]

QUOTE=Austin;825564]Promising lightweight fighter will be created in Russia, told Rogozin
Перспективный легкий истребитель будет создан в РФ, сообщил Рогозин | РИА Новости


I remember one particular technocrat(?!?!?) in ADA Tejas IV thread in this same DFI ,

that light fighters are history,

And it is stupid to produce light fighters,

as all light fighters will be whoop whooped by HEAVY CLASS fighters in all future conflicts.

But atleast the Russian deputy PM does not think so,

This is just another one jurnolamers "interpretation" of Rogozins words.

He said that light fighters are more EXPORT-capable and EXPORT-superior than heavies because of the much lower prices. Hovewer, the only light fighter advantage now is its price, nothing more.

VVS don't need light fighter because it is too incapable to fight heavies in real war, cannot fight on the great distances of Russia and still too expensive for just dropping the smart bombs on mujaheddines walking on the mountains. This is the task for more cheap Yak-130 or even turboprop light attack like Tucano.

However, there are many countries in the world who cannot afford to buy and run heavies and / or the countries war tasks are too simple for expensive heavy fighter. That countries will gladly buy cheaper lightweight fighters rather than heavies and for those importers a new light figther will be done.

Of course, some of the type will be in VVS, not because they are needed but to support export sales and to train customers pilots. A new aerobatics team is also possible.

 

[Austin]

VVS will need a light fighter as part of its doctorine had that not been the case they wont be operating Mig-29 or earlier similar light fighter or would plan to buy Mig-35/SMT

But for some countries defination of light will be different for eg countries would classify the Gripen or LCA as light fighter but Mig-35 or F-16 would be classified as medium type.

Cant have a fleet of all heavy fighter as it will be expensive to operate during peace time and expensive to buy too.

Light fighter has better export potential though as most countries cant afford to buy a 150 million USD fighter and Light fighter is a better option , clearly without a 5th Gen Light Fighter Russia will be left in vacuum for a segment that would get occupied by Chinese J-21 and JSF.

 

[p2prada]

We need to wait and see where this light fighter program is going.

Will it be rigged to perform air superiority roles like EF, will it be rigged to perform ground strike like F-35, will it be a mix of both like Rafale and so on. So, this light fighter may end up being used mainly for export or VVS may find some use for it depending on what it is designed for.

@Austin
According to VVS, F-35, EF and Rafale are light fighters. And an aircraft like Gripen doesn't exist in their doctrine outside of shooting it down when it shows up. We know this since the time the Soviets canceled the Mig-33 in the early 80s.

So, light fighters will also end up being very expensive anyway.

 

[Austin]

^^ P2P that is what I was trying to say , VVS doctrine has both Light ( Mig-29 class ) and Heavy ( Su-27 class ) fighters plus other types.

There was an Mig proposal for LMFS should be along similar lines
MiG's Fifth Generation Fighter Builds up New Momentum | Авиатранспортное обозрение

 

[Austin]

The best bet for LMFS is to develop a 16-17 T fighter using a single Id 30 ( 18 T ) engine , multirole type fighter ..such fighter will be in great demand in the world market and a good replacement for Mig-29/35 in next decade.

Extensive use of composites and new metal alloys should keep the weight low , atleast aim for 50 % composite by weight and 90 % by surface area similar to JSF.

That would put Klimov out of business for LMFS but having a common engine for PAK-FA and LMFS is a great logistics advantage to start with.


From Paralay website

http://paralay.com/lmfs/2502.png
http://paralay.com/lmfs/2501.png
http://paralay.com/lmfs/2504.png

 

[ersakthivel]

We need to wait and see where this light fighter program is going.

Will it be rigged to perform air superiority roles like EF, will it be rigged to perform ground strike like F-35, will it be a mix of both like Rafale and so on. So, this light fighter may end up being used mainly for export or VVS may find some use for it depending on what it is designed for.

@Austin
According to VVS, F-35, EF and Rafale are light fighters. And an aircraft like Gripen doesn't exist in their doctrine outside of shooting it down when it shows up. We know this since the time the Soviets canceled the Mig-33 in the early 80s.

So, light fighters will also end up being very expensive anyway.

If grippen shoots a 120 Km meteor will the meidum fighter pilot of VVS say,

no , no , you are not qualified for that, becuase you are micro light weight?

No single engined fighter is planned in VVS because they don't trust their engine tech unlike americans always did with f-16 and f-35 may be an unpalatable answer.

but i see no reason other than that.

 

[Austin]

VVS had single engine fighter in Mig-23 and 27 or even the Mig-21 .....but they moved to twin engine fighter because it offer higher survivability in war and peace time over single engine one , I saw a study which stated twin engine fighter have 3x time survivability over single engine either due to hits or engine failure.

Either ways see no reason why they should not opt for single engine LMFS ....all have their own pros and cons so one has to compromise some where

 

[Austin]

Posted by Jo at keypubs ,
Avionics & sensor fusion architecture of the PAK-FA

Интегрированный комплекс бортового оборудования многофункционального самолета. Патент РФ 2488775

 

[p2prada]

^^ P2P that is what I was trying to say , VVS doctrine has both Light ( Mig-29 class ) and Heavy ( Su-27 class ) fighters plus other types.

Ah, then my bad. VVS seems to be interested in only buying token amounts of Mig-35, but keeping the design house alive is a good idea IMHO. Unless the project goes to Sukhoi instead.

Rogozin is right though. The light fighter market is superior to the heavy fighter market any day. But the costs for procurement are not significantly different if you see that Rafale costs more than what's been expected for PAKFA. So, only volumes can bring costs down. But without enough volumes, then even the light fighter will become too expensive. So, we cannot expect any success here unless VVS themselves buy a few hundred of the LMFS. If they buy very few and expect the export market to buy the volumes required, then the venture will fail.

And you can be guaranteed that it won't be anywhere near as capable as PAKFA is planned to be.

 

[p2prada]

Posted by Jo at keypubs ,
Avionics & sensor fusion architecture of the PAK-FA

Интегрированный комплекс бортового оборудования многофункционального самолета. Патент РФ 2488775

The stuff that was legible is good.

Wow, this needs a real translator, not Google.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Funny thing about Jo 's sci-fi posts is
if 1% of thing which he posts happens in reality for pak-fa it would be a real wonder for Russian aviation industry

GaN AESA modules
Composite engine blades

Blah ..Blah
the list would grow with upcoming years

CHEERS

 

[Austin]

Ah, then my bad. VVS seems to be interested in only buying token amounts of Mig-35, but keeping the design house alive is a good idea IMHO. Unless the project goes to Sukhoi instead.

Well if you see the the Mig-29++ procurement for VVS and Navy the number of Mig-35/SMT and Mig-29K procured are decent and they have still a big fleet of Mig-29 part of which will be modernised.

Rogozin is right though. The light fighter market is superior to the heavy fighter market any day. But the costs for procurement are not significantly different if you see that Rafale costs more than what's been expected for PAKFA. So, only volumes can bring costs down. But without enough volumes, then even the light fighter will become too expensive. So, we cannot expect any success here unless VVS themselves buy a few hundred of the LMFS. If they buy very few and expect the export market to buy the volumes required, then the venture will fail.

IF you compare PAK-FA cost with a western type of the previous generation you will find it expensive because R&D cost , development and manufacturing cost in Western nations are expensive.

From Russian POV and even for export customers the Light Fighter will be cheaper compare to Heavier one and most important is its operational cost and maintenance cost will be cheaper through out its life cycle.
And you can be guaranteed that it won't be anywhere near as capable as PAKFA is planned to be.[/QUOTE]