Sukhoi PAK FA

[p2prada]

Specialized types are always better than multirole types. Multirole aircraft sacrifice some design principle or the other to get some capability in another role in terms of aerodynamics. That's the deal killer.

Using avionics to achieve a different role is an entirely different subject matter. But this makes the aircraft more expensive than a specialized aircraft.

when we going to make our own weapons i mean what the hell we do not have

Money first. Then comes manpower and experience.

 

[Austin]

Even for avionics specialised aircraft have their own advantage for eg look at the aperture shape of Su-34 Radar in its chissled nose compared to Su-30SM or Su-35 , the oval shape radar is designed to cover much wider FOV when scanning ground targets compared to say a circular antenna ...not to mention the other virtues for a specialized and optimised design

 

[Drsomnath999]

Development PAK FA program

Recent months have been marked by significant progress in advancing the program of the Russian fifth generation fighter PAK FA (promising aviation complex tactical aviation). October 27, 2013 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, makes its first flight the fifth flight of the PAK FA prototype - aircraft T-50-5. November 20, this machine came to pass tests at the airfield of "Flight Research Institute named after Gromov" in Zhukovsky near Moscow. In early 2014 assumed the presentation of the PAK FA on State tests, the first phase of which is scheduled for completion in 2015. By the time of the first flight of the T-50-5 were more than 450 flight first four flight prototypes of T-50 - recall that flight tests of the first flight of a prototype T-50-1 was launched January 29, 2010.

Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant named after Yuri Gagarin (branch of "Company" Sukhoi ") conducted another four production prototypes of the PAK FA - aircraft T-50-6-1, T-50-6-2, T-50 and T-7-50-8, which should be submitted before the end of 2014.

Fifth flight prototype fifth-generation fighter PAK FA - aircraft T-50-5 ("board room 055"). Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in November 2013 (c) of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant named after Yuri Gagarin (branch of "Company" Sukhoi ").

Simultaneously moves into the production stage of the creation of major systems for the PAK FA.

As part of the PAK FA are two promising Turbofan engines for this aircraft, both projects are carried out under the auspices of the created "OPK" Oboronprom "engine-integrated group - OJSC" United Engine Corporation "(APC). Currently, the PAK FA are powered by the first stage ("article 117" AL-41F1) developed by JSC "NPO" Saturn ", production of which is JSC" Ufa Engine Industrial Association "(UMPO). Engine "article 117" to a maximum thrust of 14,500 kg is a further development of the well known family of AL-31F engines with preservation of their "hot side" and using the modified compressor engine AL-41F ("article 20"), previously developed in the framework of another Soviet fighter program fifth generation of MFIs. To date, produced 18 engines of the first stage ("article 117"), four of which are bench trials and 14 - flight tests of objects T-50. At the current stage of development on the basic elements of the engine "article 117" made life 750 hours before overhaul. Being prepared for mass production engine UMPO.

For further development of the PAK FA and fully achieve all its desired characteristics, a new engine of the second stage ("article 30") up to a maximum thrust of 16,000 pounds or more, which should be brought to production approximately 2020. Development of the engine of the second stage is carried out in cooperation between the enterprises division "Engines for combat aircraft" JDC, while KB-integrator for the development of the engine is defined branch UMPO - "OKB. A.Lyulka. " In co-operation also involved FSUE "STC Gas Turbine" Salute "(Moscow) and JSC" NPP "Motor" (Ufa). In addition, the work involved and the designers of "NPO" Saturn "(Rybinsk) included in another Division JDC -" Engines for civil aviation. " Head factory production engines of the second stage will UMPO.

Work on the engine of the second stage ("article 30") PAK FA include research work to develop a new gas generator comprising a five-stage high pressure compressor, combustor and turbine-stage high and low pressure, as well as research on the development of three-stage low-pressure compressor.

Until the end of 2013 should be completed engineering design of the engine of the second stage and released documentation for manufacturing and engine core demonstrator. In 2014, production is scheduled to UMPO bench tests and pilot gas generators and engine demonstrator "article 30".

Radar complex weapons control system W-121 aircraft PAK FA with radar N036 with pyatiantennoy system with active phased array (AESA) was established with the leading role of "Scientific Research Institute of Instrument name Tikhomirov" (NIIP Zhukovsky). The structure consists of five N036 radar AFAR - active phased array X-band N036-01-1, placed in front of the fuselage, two AFAR sidescan N036B and N036B-01, and two AFAR N036L N36L-01 and L-band in socks wing, designed to detect and state identification purposes. Also included in the RLC purpose computer system N036UVS. Flight tests of prototypes RFCs W-121 have been conducted since July 2012 a prototype T-50 and T-3-50-4, and is now the most complete configuration, they will be carried out on the T-50-5. Serial production of RFCs W-121 is adjusted by JSC "Ryazan State Instrument-Making Plant" (GRPZ).

Staffing antenna arrangement RFCs W-121 Aircraft PAK FA (c) Peter Butovsky / Air Cosmos

The greatest progress in the development of W-121 RLC associated with bringing to a state of mass production the main element radar AFAR - transceiver modules. The production of such modules - broadband microwave amplifiers for PPR, is a monolithic integrated circuit type GaN - established at FSUE "Scientific-Industrial Enterprise" Istok "(Fryazino, Moscow region) included in the composition of the holding" Roselektronika. "

Development of modules for microwave radar N036 carried on NPP "Source" since 2003. Based on the power transistors and monolithic integrated circuits interest microwave before acceptance have been developed microwave modules for active phased array of bedinyayuschie in all the two-ne Reda TV antenna, supply chain of chilled water systems and digital governance.

Currently, the NPP "Istok" launched Russia's first line for the industrial production of transistors and integrated circuits monolithic microwave. For our country, it was a breakthrough, because four years ago, microwave monolithic integrated circuits produced only single specimens. The launch of this line allowed volume production of microwave sub-modules for radar AFAR.

Established in Enterprise "Istok" pilot line for assembling, configuring, testing and mass production of microwave sub-modules AFAR has a capacity of 100,000 units per year, provided that the development from 2010 serial production of low-temperature multi-layer ceramic (LTSS). Initial ceramic tape manufactured by this company. Commissioned special area for machining of body parts for microwave AFAR submodules with up to 200 thousand sets of parts per year.

Nasal and reactance phased array X-band H 036-01-1 (1522 transceiver modules) radar N036 RFCs W-121 aircraft PAK FA exposure in the MAKS-2009 (c) paralay.iboards.ru

Multichannel transceiver modules X-band radar N036 RFCs W-121 aircraft PAK FA exposure in MAKS-2011 (with) paralay.iboards.ru

Active phased array L-band N036L radar N036 W RLC-121 for placement in an airplane wing socks PAK FA. Exposure MAKS-2011 (with) paralay.iboards.ru

Development of guided weapons for the PAK FA performed of "Tactical Missiles Corporation" (Tactical Missiles Corporation). Complexes missile air-to-air are included in the Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC Moscow "State Bureau" Vympel "named after II Toropova." For the PAK FA "Vympel" is developing promising products "air-air" small, medium and long-range internal accommodation and gradual build-up of their combat performance.

In the area of "‹"‹short-range weapons, work is underway to modernize the family of R-73. The major direction of modernization was the establishment of "product 760" (RVV-MD), the so-called "second stage of modernization." Features rocket backfilled by equipping its combined control system comprising a heat seeker, an inertial system (MIS) and receiver line radio correction. May be a takeover target after starting on the target designation from the ISU. Transverse dimension of 320 x 320 missiles mm. It can capture the target for the trajectory and when you start to make a U-turn at 160 degrees. Stated that "article 760" passed state tests and is ready for serial production.

It also creates a virtually new short-range missiles, short-range air combat and highly maneuverable missile defense, designated K-MD ("article 300"). The missile is equipped with a matrix of thermal GOS possibility of pattern recognition and increased range of capture twice. Engine with dual-mode operation time up to 100 seconds and three-channel gas flow control device. Test launch expected in 2014-2015.

In the field of medium-range weapons are the modernization of the R-77. An improved version of the first rocket was "170-1 product." The next stage of modernization was "article 180" (RVV-SD). Lattice handlebars replaced with non-folding flat handlebars. The missile is equipped with a new multi-mode active-passive radar seeker. According to the known data, production of RVV-SD should be initiated in 2013.
A separate line of development of missiles R-77 family is the creation of a "product-PD 180" extended range, and missiles with index "181C product." In addition, "Vympel" is the creation of a new medium-range missile designs.

In the area of long-range weapons for the PAK FA "Vympel" is working on upgrading the R-37. Based on "articles 610m" developed a new "product 810". This rocket is to be placed in the inner compartments of the PAK FA. Tests are scheduled for 2014-2015.

As armament air-to-surface on the PAK FA "first steps" to use a number of new weapons enterprises Tactical Missiles Corporation - developed of "SSPE" Region "corrected air bombs KAB-250 caliber 250 kg (presumably has a combined satellite and semi-active laser system guidance), anti-radar missiles Kh-58USHK (developer of "GosMKB" Rainbow "them. Bereznyak AY") and modular guided short-range missiles Kh-38 family (parent company developer of Tactical Missiles Corporation).
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[p2prada]

GaN modules. So what Jo was saying is quite right. Even more interesting if the AESA uses GaN modules, doubly so if MKI is upgraded with the same.

I think the article makes a mistake with engines. There are two engines, but three different thrust ratings. The first stage 117, has two models. One has a thrust of 147KN and the initial production models will carry the 165KN version of the 117. I think the article is actually highlighting that. Type 30 should have much higher thrust at a supposed 176KN.

 

[ersakthivel]

Today's modern
RSS,
compound delta or canarad delta multi role fighters

with modern composites and

Multi mode ASEA radars that can simultaneously look for ground targets and air targets

along with very high TWR engines

and very low clean config RCS


and laser guided precision munitions don't suffer from them being multi role in any of their mission profile or close combat specs.

If people think they suffer from any sucn deficiencies they can move the discussion about that to combat aircraft evolution thread

 

[Austin]

GaN modules. So what Jo was saying is quite right. Even more interesting if the AESA uses GaN modules, doubly so if MKI is upgraded with the same.

The current AESA module being test is based on GaA T/R module and that is what we would see this decade since a lot of time , effort and money has been spent on building this AESA radar and this is the first ( by NIIRT ) or perhaps second AESA module being tested ( if i count the Mig-35 one by other design bureau )

Although GaN module is available they would be used for other program like A-100 AWACS and S-500 Radar and other program , they can use GaN for EW stuff on PAK-FA but as a main radar there will be GaA based.

I think the article makes a mistake with engines. There are two engines, but three different thrust ratings. The first stage 117, has two models. One has a thrust of 147KN and the initial production models will carry the 165KN version of the 117. I think the article is actually highlighting that. Type 30 should have much higher thrust at a supposed 176KN.

There are just two engine for PAK-FA , 117 with 15 T Thrust and Id 30 with 17.5-18 T Thrust.

 

[rvjpheonix]

GaN modules. So what Jo was saying is quite right. Even more interesting if the AESA uses GaN modules, doubly so if MKI is upgraded with the same.

I think the article makes a mistake with engines. There are two engines, but three different thrust ratings. The first stage 117, has two models. One has a thrust of 147KN and the initial production models will carry the 165KN version of the 117. I think the article is actually highlighting that. Type 30 should have much higher thrust at a supposed 176KN.

what are GaN modules and what are the capabilities they add?

 

[p2prada]

The current AESA module being test is based on GaA T/R module and that is what we would see this decade since a lot of time , effort and money has been spent on building this AESA radar and this is the first ( by NIIRT ) or perhaps second AESA module being tested ( if i count the Mig-35 one by other design bureau )

Although GaN module is available they would be used for other program like A-100 AWACS and S-500 Radar and other program , they can use GaN for EW stuff on PAK-FA but as a main radar there will be GaA based.

GaN modules can be replaced with GaAs modules quite quickly. After flight testing is done, I don't think it will take more than an hour or two to do that. Whatever tests done on GaAs will be very similar and quite relevant to GaN modules also.

It's like how the French replaced their PESAs with AESAs in just two hours on Rafale.

There are just two engine for PAK-FA , 117 with 15 T Thrust and Id 30 with 17.5-18 T Thrust.

A few years ago, you posted an interview on this thread where the official stated the 117 will be uprated to 165KN to complete all the PAKFA tests and meet VVS requirements for production types. If you want I can look it up again, but I can do that only this weekend. The interview was translated from Russian.

I believe this was the same time the Russians revealed the existence of Id 30.

 

[p2prada]

what are GaN modules and what are the capabilities they add?

Mostly power and efficiency. A GaAs theoretical peak is around 10W for each modules. GaN's peak potential is very high in comparison.

If we are to use radar based microwave weapons, we are going to need GaN modules.

Current GaN modules peak out at 16W, but they are also working towards 20W and higher. Civilian GaN modules have already reached peak powers of 50W.

Take PAKFA's radar for example, it has 1522 modules. At a peak power of 10W, the radar will manage peak powers of just 15 KW. This is fine for day to day functions of a basic fighter radar of the Flanker class. But, say the peak power of each module is 50W. The peak power is at 76KW, this will throw our radar into the realms of directed energy weapons. Of course, current technology allows a potential increase to 150W, maybe a bit more and this gives a peak radar power of 228KW. We can bring down entire electronic systems with this kind of power at decent ranges.

Regardless of the above, even using GaN's at 15W will allow pilots to increase the power aperture of their radars by a significant amount and prevent compromising the capabilities of the radar as compared to GaAs based systems.

 

[p2prada]

@Austin

The article also talks of mass producing GaN modules for the the W-121 RLC directly. W-121's primary sensor is the N036 radar.

The greatest progress in the development of W-121 RLC associated with bringing to a state of mass production the main element radar AFAR - transceiver modules. The production of such modules - broadband microwave amplifiers for PPR, is a monolithic integrated circuit type GaN - established at FSUE "Scientific-Industrial Enterprise" Istok "(Fryazino, Moscow region) included in the composition of the holding" Roselektronika. "

I am just speculating here, but perhaps even the radar will follow the Stage 1 and Stage 2 development phases like the engine, with FOC PAKFA carrying GaN systems and Id 30 engine.

 

[Shirman]

so @p2prada what will be radar config of Pak fa for that ideal anti-stealth role is the current x band main radar of pak fa sufficient for lets say show down with f-22/ f-35 or do you expect further GaN powered modifications on PAKFA.....................

 

[Austin]

It's like how the French replaced their PESAs with AESAs in just two hours on Rafale.

Oh have they done such a thing , thats amazing ......because I remember reading similar PESA to AESA was proposed for MKI after changing the back end.

A few years ago, you posted an interview on this thread where the official stated the 117 will be uprated to 165KN to complete all the PAKFA tests and meet VVS requirements for production types. If you want I can look it up again, but I can do that only this weekend. The interview was translated from Russian.

If you can get the interview it would be great but all current info suggest only 15 T and ~ 18T engine for 2nd stage.

 

[p2prada]

so @p2prada what will be radar config of Pak fa for that ideal anti-stealth role is the current x band main radar of pak fa sufficient for lets say show down with f-22/ f-35 or do you expect further GaN powered modifications on PAKFA.....................

Who knows. PAKFA will end up with a more efficient radar system with GaN, but that's just hardware specs. We don't know or will never know anything about the software aspects.

Oh have they done such a thing , thats amazing ......because I remember reading similar PESA to AESA was proposed for MKI after changing the back end.

This is including the back end. I meant for the whole radar.

MKI will also undergo the same kind of change. The entire radar, the cooling systems, the processing, all the backup electronics, everything. Of course, the radar itself has to be certified before all this happens. Then the MKI will have to undergo factory testing and everything. So, the entire change will take a few weeks before the aircraft is actually combat ready, but it can be done.

It is a whole different ballgame if it means changing MS to AESA or PESA.

If you can get the interview it would be great but all current info suggest only 15 T and ~ 18T engine for 2nd stage.

Yeah, I will look for it this weekend. It should be there in this thread.

 

[ersakthivel]

Did India hinted of pulling out of FGFA Project ? | idrw.org

Some plain speaking at last?

 

[ersakthivel]

Fifth Generation Flame-out | OPEN Magazine

HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak says, "Right now the PAK-FA is flying with an upgraded Sukhoi-30 engine, and it is likely to have its own new engine by 2018.
The Russian PAK-FA has uncertainties over its power-plant, and hopes to go into production with the existing upgraded Sukhoi engine, while a new engine would enter testing phase only in 2018, pushing the programme further back. This explains the Indian FGFA's likely delay.

 

[Drsomnath999]

PAK FA will complement digital missiles

Design Bureau "Detail" Corporation "Tactical Missiles" will develop an advanced system for homing missiles K-77m air-to-air, which is equipped with a promising aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA).
To do this, the company will take a massive retooling. Create a pilot production plant is going in 2015. About it, "Izvestia" reported chief engineer Mikhail Vershinin.
Despite advances in technology and a steady decline in the cost of production, phased array as an element locator remain expensive, which casts doubt on the expediency of their single-use rockets. Nevertheless, such a missile hit the plane enemy will pay many times and production, and possible damage, the deputy director of the Institute of Military and Political Analysis Alexander Hramchihin.
Obtain an advanced targeting system, missile K-77m air-to-air will keep the target and adjust to its maneuvers.

Homing missiles will ensure the aircraft or missile hit the enemy with the first run. The new radar will provide instant response to a sudden maneuver missile targets, and increase compatibility with digital systems, fifth generation fighter aircraft. Such an element radar is usually installed on the aircraft, including the T-50, and air defense systems.

According to general director of holding "Roselektronika" state corporation "Rosteh" Andrei Zverev, Russia has a chance to become one of the first countries to adopt the new technology necessary to create high-precision missiles.

"Digital active phased arrays while promising direction and are not currently commercially available, either in Russia or abroad. Certainly, accuracy, agility missiles will increase, because the digital array has more speed and less energy compared to analog, - said Andrei Zverev .

According to the plans UPKB "Detail" to launch production will not begin until February 2015 - this date must be prepared working documents for the implementation of technology.
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REALLY AN AWESOME NEWS

 

[Austin]

via Jo

 

[Austin]

Fifth Generation Flame-out | OPEN Magazine

I am not sure if HAL Chairman knows what he is talking about , the 117 Engine is dimensionally similar to AL-31 series engine that was the design requirement but compared to AL-31FP of Su-30MKI or even 117S of Su-35 , the new engine is 117 has 80 % new components , longer life 6000 hrs IIRC and higher MTBO.

117 in current form of PAK-FA meets all the criteria of 5th Gen engine and the 2nd Stage Engine is categorized as 5 plus.

 

[ersakthivel]

I am not sure if HAL Chairman knows what he is talking about , the 117 Engine is dimensionally similar to AL-31 series engine that was the design requirement but compared to AL-31FP of Su-30MKI or even 117S of Su-35 , the new engine is 117 has 80 % new components , longer life 6000 hrs IIRC and higher MTBO.

117 in current form of PAK-FA meets all the criteria of 5th Gen engine and the 2nd Stage Engine is categorized as 5 plus.

Fifth Generation Flame-out | OPEN Magazine

HAL Chairman Ashok Nayak says, "Right now the PAK-FA is flying with an upgraded Sukhoi-30 engine, and it is likely to have its own new engine by 2018.
The Russian PAK-FA has uncertainties over its power-plant, and hopes to go into production with the existing upgraded Sukhoi engine, while a new engine would enter testing phase only in 2018, pushing the programme further back. This explains the Indian FGFA's likely delay.

That is the crux of this so called JV.

Even the HAL chairman who is to be a partner of this 50-50 JV doesnot know about the engine specs of current PAKFA or whether it will meet the FGFA specs demands of IAF .

Whether the present 117 in PAKFA meets the critierian of all 5th gen engine or not is not really the question.

the question is will it be good enough to meet the specs that were aimed at the initial design phase of FGFA which was given to IAF?

According to HAL chief an engine that will meet that requirement for FGFA needs of IAF will enter testing phase only in 2018.Sure he may know something about the FGFA spec that was asked by IAF in the initial JV even if you think that he does not know much about the present engine on PAKFA.

because IAF is set to spend more than 30 billion dollars if you consider total life cycle costs on FGFA on a limited number of 140 or so fighters.

So right now from HAL chairman no one knows the present engine on PAKFA meets the IAF demands considering the weight of the FGFA or the frontal RCS specs initially promised.

 

[Austin]

As long as IAF has been briefed about FGFA and is satisfied on it then there is no issue , Recent quotes from IAF has expressed displeasure on workshare and not on performance/parameter of FGFA.

Either way there is no way to know unless the official speaks up on what the end product called FGFA would look like and what the final arrangment of work share will be ..... probably it may just follow the tested MKI model of gradual indiginisation over period of time but thats my thinking and I could well be wrong too.

We know so little on the final specs of IAF MKI and what incremental changes are done , its probably an NDA clause between IAF and Vendor so the chances of knowing what FGFA has is still less beyond the generics.