gadeshi
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Sukhoi PAK FA
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5th-Gen fighter plan hits hurdle as Russia hikes cost - The Times of India
NEW DELHI: India's biggest defence project in the making, the critical joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia, has flown into some rough weather.
Defence ministry sources said the inking of the final design and R&D contract for the stealth fighter has been hit by a huge delay, with Russia also jacking up costs for the futuristic project. "It's very unlikely the FGFA final design contract will be concluded in the 2013-2014 fiscal," said a source.
This contract was to be inked in 2012 as per the then revised timeline after completion of the preliminary design contract (PD C) phase. India will eventually end up spending close to $35 billion over the next two decades to induct over 200 such "swing-role" fighters.
The plan till last year was that India would begin inducting the FGFA from 2022 onwards, with IAF test pilots getting three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019 for trials at the Hindustan Aeronautics manufacturing facility at Ozar.
"The timeframes will now have to be revised. MoD has established a committee of specialists and finance officials to verify the rise in costs. An internal contract negotiation committee is also in progress," said the source.
But India remains firm about rejecting the US offer for joining its Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) or the F-35 'Lightning-II' programme. "A lot of money and time has been invested in the FGFA with Russia. India simply cannot afford two FGFAs, both financially as well as logistically" he said.
The 18-month PDC worth $295 million for the FGFA with Russia was inked in December 2010, under which Indian designers and scientists have even been stationed in Russia to work out the blueprints and documentation for the fighter.
Though the Indian "perspective multi-role fighter" will be based on the Russian single-seat FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA, which now has four prototypes flying, it will be tweaked to IAF requirements. IAF had initially pitched for 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters but will go for only single-cockpit jets now to reduce costs as well as protect stealth features.
The final design contract now being negotiated was pegged at $11 billion, with India and Russia sharing $5.5 billion each towards the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. Each fighter was to cost over $100 million.
IAF is quite confident the T-50 will meet its future requirements. Apart from ultra-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, the FGFA will carry its weapons inside the fuselage to lower its radar signature. With a cruising speed of Mach 1.7 to 1.8, it has both long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities.
IAF is currently making do with just 34 fighter squadrons (each has 14 to 18 jets) despite needing at least 44 to keep both Pakistan and China at bay. It's banking upon the ongoing induction of 270 Russian Sukhoi-30MKIs for around $12 billion as well as the early inking of the almost $20 billion project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to plug operational gaps till the FGFA becomes a reality.
NEW DELHI: India's biggest defence project in the making, the critical joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia, has flown into some rough weather.
Defence ministry sources said the inking of the final design and R&D contract for the stealth fighter has been hit by a huge delay, with Russia also jacking up costs for the futuristic project. "It's very unlikely the FGFA final design contract will be concluded in the 2013-2014 fiscal," said a source.
This contract was to be inked in 2012 as per the then revised timeline after completion of the preliminary design contract (PD C) phase. India will eventually end up spending close to $35 billion over the next two decades to induct over 200 such "swing-role" fighters.
The plan till last year was that India would begin inducting the FGFA from 2022 onwards, with IAF test pilots getting three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019 for trials at the Hindustan Aeronautics manufacturing facility at Ozar.
"The timeframes will now have to be revised. MoD has established a committee of specialists and finance officials to verify the rise in costs. An internal contract negotiation committee is also in progress," said the source.
But India remains firm about rejecting the US offer for joining its Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) or the F-35 'Lightning-II' programme. "A lot of money and time has been invested in the FGFA with Russia. India simply cannot afford two FGFAs, both financially as well as logistically" he said.
The 18-month PDC worth $295 million for the FGFA with Russia was inked in December 2010, under which Indian designers and scientists have even been stationed in Russia to work out the blueprints and documentation for the fighter.
Though the Indian "perspective multi-role fighter" will be based on the Russian single-seat FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA, which now has four prototypes flying, it will be tweaked to IAF requirements. IAF had initially pitched for 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters but will go for only single-cockpit jets now to reduce costs as well as protect stealth features.
The final design contract now being negotiated was pegged at $11 billion, with India and Russia sharing $5.5 billion each towards the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. Each fighter was to cost over $100 million.
IAF is quite confident the T-50 will meet its future requirements. Apart from ultra-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, the FGFA will carry its weapons inside the fuselage to lower its radar signature. With a cruising speed of Mach 1.7 to 1.8, it has both long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities.
IAF is currently making do with just 34 fighter squadrons (each has 14 to 18 jets) despite needing at least 44 to keep both Pakistan and China at bay. It's banking upon the ongoing induction of 270 Russian Sukhoi-30MKIs for around $12 billion as well as the early inking of the almost $20 billion project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to plug operational gaps till the FGFA becomes a reality.
Press conference of "Saturn"
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On the engine for the PAK FA
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On the engine for the PAK FA
gadeshi
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It is from official Russia-1 TV news report, where was tould that PAK FA has exceeded its creators expectations on many characteristics, especially supercruise speed.
It is also were tould that T-50 is 2-3 tonnes lighter 500km/h faster than F-22.
Alsough T-50-7 will not be flyable and will be used for ground tests. It can mean that it will be used for strengthened airframe static testing and RCS masurement (unlikely because of al the stealth capabilities we will see on Phase 2 aircraft). It can be that Sukhoi designers want to utilize such a great speed data by designing more robust and durable airframe to withstand 2.35/2.5M speeds instead of 2.1M initially planned.
It is also were tould that T-50 is 2-3 tonnes lighter 500km/h faster than F-22.
Alsough T-50-7 will not be flyable and will be used for ground tests. It can mean that it will be used for strengthened airframe static testing and RCS masurement (unlikely because of al the stealth capabilities we will see on Phase 2 aircraft). It can be that Sukhoi designers want to utilize such a great speed data by designing more robust and durable airframe to withstand 2.35/2.5M speeds instead of 2.1M initially planned.
F-22 is a product that designed in late 80's so I wont be surprised it end up being heavier than PAK-FA which was designed in early 2000's where better and lighter materials were available for the designer to work on.
But F-35 has composite percentage of 50 % of its weight compared to PAK-FA ~ 30 % but then the challenge is to develop materials that can sustain Mach 2+ something only titanium alloy metals are used for hot spots ....... The higher the sustain speed the more is the need to find exotic metal to deal with the problem of heat.
I doubt we might see any bigger increase of Composite by weight in PAK-FA for exactly the same reason that it will have to endure sustain Mach 2+ during its life time.
But F-35 has composite percentage of 50 % of its weight compared to PAK-FA ~ 30 % but then the challenge is to develop materials that can sustain Mach 2+ something only titanium alloy metals are used for hot spots ....... The higher the sustain speed the more is the need to find exotic metal to deal with the problem of heat.
I doubt we might see any bigger increase of Composite by weight in PAK-FA for exactly the same reason that it will have to endure sustain Mach 2+ during its life time.
gadeshi
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Wrong: Russians have made extensive work on high-temperature composites and got a success on that field.
I will post the news and articles about it when I'll find them from RU-net.
But, all the measures and material do you mention are necessary for Mach 2.8-3.0+
Tere is Mach 2-2.5 we are talking about, so no titanium alloys will be needed for them.
I will post the news and articles about it when I'll find them from RU-net.
But, all the measures and material do you mention are necessary for Mach 2.8-3.0+
Tere is Mach 2-2.5 we are talking about, so no titanium alloys will be needed for them.
The difference in flying Mach 2 - 2.5 for a short moment and the different in flying sustain for prolonged period of time is what makes the different , Most fighter today can do Mach 2 for couple of minutes , only fighter like Mig-31 can do a sustain Mach 2.5 for 20 minutes which has its own impact on the material these fighters use.
I believe F-22 and PAK-FA has low composite by weight is because of the same reason that they need to do sustain supersonic flight be it mach 1.6 or in case of PAK-FA better ......most fighter today will be flying subsonic most of flight including JSF.
In such a situation Titanium Alloys is the only answer if you want to sustain prolonged heat , stress and keep weight low ......I am sure PAK-FA would be using a substantial portion of Ti Alloys ......I dont think we yet has a composite solution for prolonged Supersonic Flight in the entire life of a fighter which can bear heat stress day in and out.
I believe F-22 and PAK-FA has low composite by weight is because of the same reason that they need to do sustain supersonic flight be it mach 1.6 or in case of PAK-FA better ......most fighter today will be flying subsonic most of flight including JSF.
In such a situation Titanium Alloys is the only answer if you want to sustain prolonged heat , stress and keep weight low ......I am sure PAK-FA would be using a substantial portion of Ti Alloys ......I dont think we yet has a composite solution for prolonged Supersonic Flight in the entire life of a fighter which can bear heat stress day in and out.
gadeshi
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@Austin, you would be surprized, but we have composite missile SRM nozzles and composite combustion chambers are under development, so just believe me, there are HT composites.
At the other side, Ti alloys are used in the force-critical places like control surfaces axels and airframe force internal structure accompanied with composites.
If we'll use Ti alloys for surface panels, we'll gain grosser weight without any profit and greater RCS as well.
BTW, MiG-25/31 have almost no Ti panels - they are made of stainless steel.
At the other side, Ti alloys are used in the force-critical places like control surfaces axels and airframe force internal structure accompanied with composites.
If we'll use Ti alloys for surface panels, we'll gain grosser weight without any profit and greater RCS as well.
BTW, MiG-25/31 have almost no Ti panels - they are made of stainless steel.
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gadeshi
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Saturn CEO Ilya Fedorov reported a great success in Item 30 PAK FA Phase 2 engine creation - all the characteristics of gas generator have greatly exceeded initial estimates while the engine price remains equal to 117:
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ПреÑÑ-ÐºÐ¾Ð½Ñ„ÐµÑ€ÐµÐ½Ñ†Ð¸Ñ ÐПО "Сатурн" // ÐвиаПорт.ÐовоÑти
From the statement we know from official sources PAK-FA has composite about 30 % by Weight and 70 % by Surface Area.
By Surface Area it would mean Skins that are exposed to the elements , I dont know if Surface area means the external surface area or the internal which is inside the aircraft but assume it is the former.
So there is substantial exposed area of composite material , I assume the remaining 30 % are metals likely TI Alloys used at hot spots and some other metal alloys.
Also there is a great misconception that metals contribute to greater RCS , F-22 is mostly metal yet it has small RCS smaller then JSF whis is 50 % composite by weight.
Most RCS reduction is obtained in Shape the remaining by RAM Paint coating and effective design of not directly exposing areas like fan blades. Composite dont contribute much to RCS reduction but more towards reducing weight and making the aircraft lighter which has it own cascading effect on engine power , take off weight etc.
On Mig-25/31 yes that is the case I read tempered steel , also Mig-31 does not use normal fuel but special high density fuel.
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Anshu Attri
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PAK FA will get "unlimited" oxygen system
Google Translate
Promising Russian fighter T-50 (PAK FA) will get a new system of supplying oxygen to the breathing mask pilot. According to the newspaper "Izvestia", a system developed by the Scientific and Production Enterprise "Zvezda". This equipment allows you to receive oxygen for breathing gas from the air during flight. For comparison, all standing in the Russian Air Force fighters are equipped with a limited amount of oxygen cylinders.
According to the chief specialist SPE "Star" Michael angelica, thanks to a new oxygen system at the height of the flight will no longer depend on the supply of oxygen in cylinders. In addition, the on-board system saves the payload: the mass of the new equipment is only 30 pounds, while the system of oxygen cylinders on a two hour flight weighs about 90 pounds.
Development of systems for the generation of oxygen was carried out over the last five years. Currently, it is set on four flying prototypes of the T-50 passing tests in Zhukovsky near Moscow. According to angelica, the first copies of the T-50, assembled at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant flew to Moscow on their own, but the entire route they needed refueling only without replenishment of oxygen.
On the basis of the oxygen system created by the T-50 and similar equipment for combat training aircraft Yak-130, which was originally established cylinders. Until the end of 2013, the new system should also get a carrier-based fighters MiG-29K. As the newspaper notes, orders for such a system is put in the Ministry of Defence of Algeria and Malaysia, it is planned to equip its fighters Su-30 family.
Earlier it was reported that the pilots of fighter T-50 will have new sets of protective equipment that will enable them to carry overload 9G lasting up to 30 seconds to eject at an altitude of 23 thousand feet. The set of high-altitude flight will be included compensation system pressure in the lungs, allowing to avoid atelectasis (collapse of the lung).
In total, the Ministry of Defence has ordered 60 Russian fighter T-50, and the Air Force need for such aircraft is estimated at 150-200 units. It is expected that in 2015 the government will begin joint testing of aircraft, and in 2016 the PAK FA will go into service.
Google Translate
Promising Russian fighter T-50 (PAK FA) will get a new system of supplying oxygen to the breathing mask pilot. According to the newspaper "Izvestia", a system developed by the Scientific and Production Enterprise "Zvezda". This equipment allows you to receive oxygen for breathing gas from the air during flight. For comparison, all standing in the Russian Air Force fighters are equipped with a limited amount of oxygen cylinders.
According to the chief specialist SPE "Star" Michael angelica, thanks to a new oxygen system at the height of the flight will no longer depend on the supply of oxygen in cylinders. In addition, the on-board system saves the payload: the mass of the new equipment is only 30 pounds, while the system of oxygen cylinders on a two hour flight weighs about 90 pounds.
Development of systems for the generation of oxygen was carried out over the last five years. Currently, it is set on four flying prototypes of the T-50 passing tests in Zhukovsky near Moscow. According to angelica, the first copies of the T-50, assembled at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant flew to Moscow on their own, but the entire route they needed refueling only without replenishment of oxygen.
On the basis of the oxygen system created by the T-50 and similar equipment for combat training aircraft Yak-130, which was originally established cylinders. Until the end of 2013, the new system should also get a carrier-based fighters MiG-29K. As the newspaper notes, orders for such a system is put in the Ministry of Defence of Algeria and Malaysia, it is planned to equip its fighters Su-30 family.
Earlier it was reported that the pilots of fighter T-50 will have new sets of protective equipment that will enable them to carry overload 9G lasting up to 30 seconds to eject at an altitude of 23 thousand feet. The set of high-altitude flight will be included compensation system pressure in the lungs, allowing to avoid atelectasis (collapse of the lung).
In total, the Ministry of Defence has ordered 60 Russian fighter T-50, and the Air Force need for such aircraft is estimated at 150-200 units. It is expected that in 2015 the government will begin joint testing of aircraft, and in 2016 the PAK FA will go into service.
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t_co
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Russia Delays India's 5th-Gen. Fighter Program | Flashpoints | The Diplomat
First testing runs delayed to 2015-16, shipment date likely pushed to 2023-24.
First testing runs delayed to 2015-16, shipment date likely pushed to 2023-24.
gadeshi
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This news post is an American-paid bullshit, because they didn't name any reliable source of their information.
Photo is from Year 2010, when Medvedev was a President of Russia.
Americans anger on Russia and India for their 5-gen success while F-35 program is cracking and overfunding.
They want to draw India into F-35 financial madness with doubtful results which can give LM extra money from India instead of money from US Congress.
Russia will not loose anything in T-50 programme even if India will quit - there is enough money to solve everything.
However, Indian money and manufactural assistance will be a handful help on the priod when KNAZ will encrease its manufacturing capacity.
Photo is from Year 2010, when Medvedev was a President of Russia.
Americans anger on Russia and India for their 5-gen success while F-35 program is cracking and overfunding.
They want to draw India into F-35 financial madness with doubtful results which can give LM extra money from India instead of money from US Congress.
Russia will not loose anything in T-50 programme even if India will quit - there is enough money to solve everything.
However, Indian money and manufactural assistance will be a handful help on the priod when KNAZ will encrease its manufacturing capacity.
p2prada
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Speculative nonsense. It would have been easier if the author had simply read wikipedia.
This is the latest news as of April 2013.
Fifth generation fighter crosses milestone - The Hindu
In the same article, there is also,
Aero India-2013 happened in February, Article dated April 2013. Very reliable article since it is from The Hindu.
So it was decided this year that we will receive a new prototype next year. The nonsense article you posted claims,
So, HUH???
We already know that if we sign this year, we get the jet next year. What kind of half-assed speculative journalism is this? The delays have already been taken into account when ACM NAK Browne said we will get the prototype next year and the apparent IOC in 2022.
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