Su-30 MKI

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nrj

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IAF is only buying 40 air launched Brahmos and they are being dispersed between MKI and Il-38s. This would be the naval attack missile, not land attack. MKI is currently the air superiority fighter of IAF. MiG-27 and Jaguars handle strike missions and for good reason, MKIs Russian missile set isn't stand-off and MKI is too high risk a target. That was proven at Red Flag. MKI's RCS is too easy to see if it is trying to complete deep strike missions. The Mig-29SMT upgrade will have similar ground attack capability. The Mirage-2000-9 upgrade will be the first true all capable strike introduced into IAF. MRCA will be at a similar level to the M2000 upgrade. I don't ever see MKI taking a true strike as has been suggested here, it is too vulnerable and limited in armaments.

I never mentioned MKI will do the front strike missions.

Bramhos is no longer just anti-ship missile platform. That won't limit MKI armed with Bramhos to do only Naval attack missions.

MKI's long range with limited ranged Bramhos is sufficient for the neighboring / limited perimeter war theater (hope u get what I'm pointing)

MKI is incapacitated due to -

(1) Significant RCS (This will be corrected by new smart skin being installed on it)

(2) New Bramhos on/inside belly of MKI will put excessive stress on airframe (So i hope Bramhos armed MKI will be limited to 40 or several more)

M2K upgrade will no doubt add Strike role muscle to IAF...

These huge numbers of MKI will clear the airspace, making way for the dedicated strike fighter to do the rest job.

MKIs are the roaring guardians of IAF ....
 
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StealthSniper

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Flight Trials Underway For Sukhoi Displays

Ongoing flight trials of new Colored Multifunctional Displays (CMFDs) for Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters are expected to be over by mid-May.

The CMFDs were produced by Samtel HAL Display Systems. They were cleared for flight testing by the Regional Center for Military Airworthiness in 2008 and flights began in April of this year.

Ground testing and ten sorties — during the day and night — have been carried out. LDP (laser designated pod) and gunfire testing is complete.

This is the first time Indian-made MFDs are being integrated on Su-30 MKI aircraft in India.

"Integration of these indigenously developed MFDs on Su-30MKI aircraft is in line with the thrust by the [Indian defense ministry] on manufacturing indigenous products for defense requirements," says Puneet Kaura, executive director of Samtel Display Systems.

The MFDs will be integrated on Block III, Block IV and the upcoming Block V aircraft. Integration with 53 Block III aircraft will end by next year, integration on 47 Block IV aircraft will be complete by 2012, and 42 Block V aircraft will be done by 2013.

Around 350 Su-30MKI aircraft are ultimately required by the Indian air force. The total order has a potential value of $56 million over the next few years.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...s/awx/2010/05/04/awx_05_04_2010_p0-224073.xml


What the heck 350 Su-30 MKI fighters? What kind of crap reporting is this? The official number is 230 MKI plus 42 or 50 more so total is 272-280 MKI. And the Indian Airforce have said they won't need more than 300 MKI to defend the skies.
 
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bhramos

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IAF is only buying 40 air launched Brahmos and they are being dispersed between MKI and Il-38s. This would be the naval attack missile.
this PN does not have more then that No of powerful ships. so at they are taking less number,
they are confident that PLAN would not dare to attack India in direct attack.
as its a global power and have some responsibilities.
 

Armand2REP

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I never mentioned MKI will do the front strike missions.
I know, I was agreeing with your air superiority call.

Bramhos is no longer just anti-ship missile platform. That won't limit MKI armed with Bramhos to do only Naval attack missions.
It is only anti-ship for the air-launched version. The land attack is going to IA.

MKI's long range with limited ranged Bramhos is sufficient for the neighboring / limited perimeter war theater (hope u get what I'm pointing)
MKI is fine hitting ships, so is Il-38. Point being only 40 missiles are purchased so the vast majority of MKIs are not going to be armed with Brahmos.

MKI is incapacitated due to -

(1) Significant RCS (This will be corrected by new smart skin being installed on it)
Slapping a RAM coating on it isn't going to make it disappear. It has canards and exposed intakes, it would take a redesign that isn't going to happen to make an RCS reduction value added. You want that buy Su-35BM.

(2) New Bramhos on/inside belly of MKI will put excessive stress on airframe (So i hope Bramhos armed MKI will be limited to 40 or several more)
I don't see that as a limitation, an MKI in a naval strike role will do the job just fine.

M2K upgrade will no doubt add Strike role muscle to IAF...
Maybe, depends on how well Tactical Missile Corp gets along with their development. Moving pretty slow as of now.
 

nrj

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It is only anti-ship for the air-launched version. The land attack is going to IA.
Its early to declare about the target geography of air launched Bramhos program. Plus India is partner not just customer of Bramhos, so things can be worked out as the requirement is growing. Bramhos-2 which is Exclusively air-launched will be much smaller to current Bramhos & has enough time to accommodate the requirement since deployment time is around 2019. I don't see they'll limit Bramhos-2 for naval missions only. The Bramhos-2 will be "picked and put" in the old launchers for usage by armed forces in Russia and India.



Point being only 40 missiles are purchased so the vast majority of MKIs are not going to be armed with Brahmos.
Frankly i don't even see need to arm all MKIs with Bramhos. 40 are enough today, never to forget Bramhos is costly too.



Slapping a RAM coating on it isn't going to make it disappear. It has canards and exposed intakes, it would take a redesign that isn't going to happen to make an RCS reduction value added. You want that buy Su-35BM.
Cummon, no one expect it to be invisible. It doesn't aim to be total stealth. We don't even dream PAK FA to totally disappear. How can MKI be? Its illogical to expect MKI will disappear with Smart Skin. The aim is to reduce its RCS in the maximum possible way with whatever technique available to help its cripple.

Regarding airframe changes, those are happening in limited amount for the new orders. Su35BM ain't invisible ghost either, no criteria to go shopping.


Maybe, depends on how well Tactical Missile Corp gets along with their development. Moving pretty slow as of now.
I'm hopeful, IAF loves their birds & have faith in Thales along with other developers. It'll materialize sooner IMO. >>>>>>
 
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BunBunCake

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Comeon, no one expect it to be invisible. It doesn't aim to be total stealth. We don't even dream PAK FA to totally disappear. How can MKI be? Its illogical to expect MKI will disappear with Smart Skin. The aim is to reduce its RCS in the maximum possible way with whatever technique available to help its cripple.

Regarding airframe changes, those are happening in limited amount for the new orders. Su35BM ain't invisible ghost either, no criteria to go shopping.
With all due respect, that statement is a bit blunt. Yes it's illogical to expect the MKI or any aircraft to be invisible. That's rhetorical. And the Su35BM doesn't have an RCS of 28 some like the MKI. They are hoping to get it under 5 m^2. It will be much harder for a radar to detect a Su-35BM than an MKI. Compare 28 with < 5.

You're pointing the obvious and taking it out of context.
 
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nrj

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With all due respect, that statement is a bit blunt. Yes it's illogical to expect the MKI or any aircraft to be invisible. That's rhetorical. And the Su35BM doesn't have an RCS of 28 some like the MKI. They are hoping to get it under 5 m^2. It will be much harder for a radar to detect a Su-35BM than an MKI. Compare 28 with < 5.
SU35BM is still in development phase. I doubt they can be delivered any sooner. Even if ordered they'll arrive at same time of PAK FA production.

We've defensive doctrine. Stealth or invisibility is required if we are crossing our airspace to roll strike mission. PAK FA will do such job if required whatsoever.

I meant if stealth or LO criteria on shopping list then better answer is PAK FA than SU35BM.

MKI is no doubt inferior to Su35BM in RCS. But it is not expected that MKI will go invisible to do deep strike missions.

MKI's role is different.
 
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Armand2REP

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Its early to declare about the target geography of air launched Bramhos program. Plus India is partner not just customer of Bramhos, so things can be worked out as the requirement is growing. Bramhos-2 which is Exclusively air-launched will be much smaller to current Bramhos & has enough time to accommodate the requirement since deployment time is around 2019. I don't see they'll limit Bramhos-2 for naval missions only. The Bramhos-2 will be "picked and put" in the old launchers for usage by armed forces in Russia and India.
Its not too early, the batch is for 40 missiles and it is also going on Il-38. I can guarantee you a land-attack version is not going on an Il-38 and such a small batch of missiles are going to be of the same type.

Brahmos 2 lalala .. when Russia can show a hypersonic test vehicle the size of Brahmos you let me know. Then I will talk about Brahmos 2. Right now it is about as realistic as Russia's manned mission to the moon.

Frankly i don't even see need to arm all MKIs with Bramhos. 40 are enough today, never to forget Bramhos is costly too.
If the air-launched was land-attack you would want several hundred of them. It would greatly increase the potential of MKI stand-off capability which is its greatest weakness right now. 40 naval strike may be enough, it also shows that not all of the MKIs are going to be rigged with Brahmos, infact a very few of them.

Cummon, no one expect it to be invisible. It doesn't aim to be total stealth. We don't even dream PAK FA to totally disappear. How can MKI be? Its illogical to expect MKI will disappear with Smart Skin. The aim is to reduce its RCS in the maximum possible way with whatever technique available to help its cripple.

What smart skin do you think Russia is going to have available to you?
Smart skin by its very nature isn't stealth, it is just shoving the antennas and extra sensors into the frame so the skin is smooth. Doing any of that on an MKI is pointless, the RCS is too big for it to make a difference and will only increase its weight. The cheaper option is to just upgrade your pods and add them for specific missions. Get the Damocles targetting pod and a new solid state jammer and you're ready to go.

Regarding airframe changes, those are happening in limited amount for the new orders. Su35BM ain't invisible ghost either, no criteria to go shopping.
I haven't seen anything for MKI upgrades making it stealthier in the least. The Brahmos addition is just structural reinforcement so it can carry the missile without buckling its pylons. Su-35BM isn't invisible, but it has incorporated far more LO features than the MKI.


I'm hopeful, IAF loves their birds & have faith in Thales along with other developers. It'll materialize sooner IMO. >>>>>>
I think you mean MBDA, they make our missiles. Tactical Missile Corp is Russian, the ones who make the weapons for the MKI. The strike mission is only as good as your weapons and Russians aren't making much progress.
 

sunnyv

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RCS of MKI can be managed by Ram-coatings and radar blockers , but how much will depend on cost of up-gradation ,and extra fund India is ready to release to research those tech on MKI.
Enough research paper is available how Russians managed to reduce rcs of Mig21 to get it to .25m2.

Some extract from ITAE research paper----------------------
ITAE researchers presented a paper to a conference on stealth in London in late October 2003, which was organized by the International Quality and Productivity Centre.

"According to the ITAE presentation, Russian researchers have developed mathematical tools that can calculate scattering from complex configurations, such as an Su-35 carrying a full external missile load, by breaking them down into small facets and adding the effects of edge waves and surface currents. The antennas are modelled separately and then are added to the entire RCS picture.
"A problem of huge size" is how the researchers describe the Su-35 inlet, with a straight duct that provides direct visibility to the entire face of the engine compressor. The basic solution has been to apply ferro-magnetic radar absorbent material (RAM) to the compressor face and to the inlet duct walls, but this involves challenges. The researchers note: the material cannot be allowed to constrict airflow or impede the operation of anti-icing systems and must withstand high-speed airflows and temperatures up to 200°C. The ITAE team has developed and tested coating materials that meet these standards. A layer of RAM between 0.7mm and 1.4mm thick is applied to the ducts and a 0.5mm coating is applied to the front stages of the low-pressure compressor, using a robotic spray system. The result is a 10-15dB reduction in the RCS contribution from the inlets.

The modified Su-35 also has a treated cockpit canopy which reflects radar waves, concealing the high RCS contribution from metal components in the cockpit. ITAE has developed a plasma-deposition process to deposit alternating layers of metallic and polymer materials, creating a coating that blocks radio-frequency waves, is resistant to cracking and crazing and does not trap solar heat in the cockpit. The plasma-coating process is then carried out robotically in a 22 m3 vacuum chamber.

ITAE and its partners have also developed plasma-type technology for applying ceramic coatings to the exhaust and afterburner. The conference video also showed the use of hand-held sprays to apply RAM to R-27 air-to-air missiles.

ITAE has studied at least three techniques for reducing the RCS contribution of the radar antenna, in addition to the simplest method of deflecting the antenna upwards and treating or shrouding other components. One of these is to design a radome that can be switched from RF-transparent to RF-reflective. The interior of the radome would be coated with a cadmium sulphide or cadmium selenide thin-film semiconductor material which changes conductivity when illuminated with visible or ultra-violet light. However, the problem of making such a film has not been solved.

A second technique that is also described in Western literature is to place a frequency selective surface screen in front of the antenna. This is a foil-like metal screen etched with small apertures which allow RF energy to pass within a narrow waveband, corresponding to the radar's own operating frequency. This reduces RCS, according to ITAE, but at the expense of radar performance.

The ITAE paper also gave some indications of the direction of stealth technology for future stealth aircraft. Test facilities include large compact indoor RCS ranges for large-scale models and outdoor ground-level ranges with short pylons that can be used to test full-size aircraft (rather than the models used for US pylon tests).

In future designs, one emphasis is on large, complex skin panels, reducing the number of gaps and mechanical fasteners in the skin"
 
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Armand2REP

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RCS of MKI can be managed by Ram-coatings and radar blockers , but how much will depend on cost of up-gradation ,and extra fund India is ready to release to research those tech on MKI.
Enough research paper is available how Russians managed to reduce rcs of Mig21 to get it to .25m2.
MiG-21 with a 1/4m^2 RCS... keep dreaming. No one would waste their time reducing a MiG-21 in the first place. The only thing the Russians use them for are target drones.
 

sunnyv

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MiG-21 with a 1/4m^2 RCS... keep dreaming. No one would waste their time reducing a MiG-21 in the first place. The only thing the Russians use them for are target drones.
Plz read the full post- They used it just to demonstrate the technology on mig21 and then it was followed to Su35.

Just search for ITAE research paper demo in London -
 
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Armand2REP

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Plz read the full post- They used it just to demonstrate the technology on mig21 and then it was followed to Su35.

Just search for ITAE research paper demo in London -
Andrey Lagarjkov, same guy who pitched plasma stealth as a success. Naïveté...
 

nrj

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Brahmos 2 lalala .. when Russia can show a hypersonic test vehicle the size of Brahmos you let me know. Then I will talk about Brahmos 2. Right now it is about as realistic as Russia's manned mission to the moon.
Believe it or not, Bramhos-2 is progressing steady & will find place in inventory of all three forces within several years. IAF even has plans to arm PAK FA with Bramhos-2. When Bramhos-2 will be ready to induct, existing infrastructure for launching will be used without any troubles.

I won't discuss Bramhos-2 anymore here. You can go through the threads here, they've all updated info on hypersonic missiles & bramhos :

India: Tinkering With Hypersonic Missiles

BrahMos: News and Discussions



Smart skin by its very nature isn't stealth, it is just shoving the antennas and extra sensors into the frame so the skin is smooth. Doing any of that on an MKI is pointless, the RCS is too big for it to make a difference and will only increase its weight. The cheaper option is to just upgrade your pods and add them for specific missions. Get the Damocles targetting pod and a new solid state jammer and you're ready to go.
If it it so simple to judge the process & its result then a professional force like IAF won't do such mistake. They've worked on it better than us.
If it is pointless then why they are splurging money & time? This is a sound move, nothing pointless. Lets leave it to IAF / Bramhos Corp / MOD.

I haven't seen anything for MKI upgrades making it stealthier in the least. Su-35BM isn't invisible, but it has incorporated far more LO features than the MKI.
Again no one is talking about Stealthy MKI. SU35BM is no doubt superior in case of RCS than MKI. But, we don't need SU35BM. PAK FA is its big brother, we are inducting it so why buy SU35BM (prototype bird) just for LO ?
 

sunnyv

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Atleast get cockpit upgraded for future MKI and the ones being built .

Too many analogue dials and displays on current one
Su35 has- Stunning full Digital Glass cockpit , wonder why IAF left that even Mig 29 K has that one.
 

Armand2REP

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Believe it or not, Bramhos-2 is progressing steady & will find place in inventory of all three forces within several years. IAF even has plans to arm PAK FA with Bramhos-2. When Bramhos-2 will be ready to induct, existing infrastructure for launching will be used without any troubles.
Believe it or not, Russia's hypersonic development hasn't even truly started. They just set up the testing facility for it. So several years is more like decade(s).

If it it so simple to judge the process & its result then a professional force like IAF won't do such mistake. They've worked on it better than us.
If it is pointless then why they are splurging money & time? This is a sound move, nothing pointless. Lets leave it to IAF / Bramhos Corp / MOD.
IAF hasn't worked on it at all. The MLU plans haven't even been released. I am afraid to inform people here that they will not be as ambitious as they think.

Again no one is talking about Stealthy MKI. SU35BM is no doubt superior in case of RCS than MKI. But, we don't need SU35BM. PAK FA is its big brother, we are inducting it so why buy SU35BM (prototype bird) just for LO ?
You said " its significant RCS will be corrected." So again I tell you it won't.
 

nrj

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Atleast get cockpit upgraded for future MKI and the ones being built .

Too many analogue dials and displays on current one
Su35 has- Stunning full Digital Glass cockpit , wonder why IAF left that even Mig 29 K has that one.
No idea any same plans for MKI. But we can expect that in MKI MLU.
Also one of the accident was caused due to manual operation of analog switch at the back of pilot seat so maybe they will propose some upgrades.
 

nrj

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Believe it or not, Russia's hypersonic development hasn't even truly started. They just set up the testing facility for it. So several years is more like decade(s).
Agreed Bramhos-2 is on paper only & in discussion phase, nothing has started.
It is not just Russia developing Bramhos. India is also contributing to the Bramhos-2. Even India has its Hypersonic Tech programs.

Bramhos-1 started by 1999 & today it is inducted for "ready fire" use in Indian Armed forces.

Developing hypersonic technology may take up to 10 yrs, no one has got it within few years.

Even if it take 9 years from now (which is time frame indicated by Bramhos Corp), what's hurry???

We are not planning "Prompt Global Strike". Let them mature the technology. They took time for Bramhos-1 & see today it is fastest missile on planet.

I am afraid to inform people here that they will not be as ambitious as they think.
No one except fanboys are disappointed by this revelation. This information is nothing new, don't be afraid.


You said " its significant RCS will be corrected." So again I tell you it won't.
Its not aimed to make RCS from 100 to 0. No one knows the figures, its absurd for me or anyone who'll deal in exact figures. The idea is to let MKI benefit from the experience obtained from the Fifth Gen Program. So the aim is to reduce RCS "Significantly". No matter what the result is.
 
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Armand2REP

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Agreed Bramhos-2 is on paper only & in discussion phase, nothing has started.
It is not just Russia developing Bramhos. India is also contributing to the Bramhos-2. Even India has its Hypersonic Tech programs.

Bramhos-1 started by 1999 & today it is inducted for "ready fire" use in Indian Armed forces.

Developing hypersonic technology may take up to 10 yrs, no one has got it within few years.

Even if it take 9 years from now (which is time frame indicated by Bramhos Corp), what's hurry???

]We are not planning "Prompt Global Strike". Let them mature the technology. They took time for Bramhos-1 & see today it is fastest missile on planet.
Like it or not, Brahmos is just a repackaged Yakhont. That project began in the late 70s. It is Soviet technology just like everything Russian MIC produces. I understand India has its own hypersonic programme, but it is almost twenty years away from an application usage. Russia got closer under the Soviet but that ended long ago. They lost the talent and the facilities and have to start from scratch except for a bunch of dusty blue prints of unfinished test schemes. Brahmos Mk II is at least a decade away, maybe two. By the time it is finished MKI will be looking for retirement.

Its not aimed to make RCS from 100 to 0. No one knows the figures, its absurd for me or anyone who'll deal in exact figures. The idea is to let MKI benefit from the experience obtained from the Fifth Gen Program. So the aim is to reduce RCS "Significantly". No matter what the result is.
Reducing RCS "Significantly" requires a major redesign, basically making MKI into an Su-35. Cutting off the canards, altering the intakes, smart skin antennas, RAM coatings... you know, expensive is the key word. India didn't pay much for the MKIs in the first place, IAF wants to double the cost with the MLU? I say no... Let MRCA and PAK FGFA deal with that mess.
 

nrj

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Brahmos Mk II is at least a decade away, maybe two. By the time it is finished MKI will be looking for retirement.
Again there is no hurry. Right now Bramhos-1 is supreme missile when speed is concerned. Its doing the best job. Quite exceeding our deterrence needs.
MKI's production line is not closed yet. MKIs are here to stay for another two decades.


Reducing RCS "Significantly" requires a major redesign, basically making MKI into an Su-35. Cutting off the canards, altering the intakes, smart skin antennas, RAM coatings... you know, expensive is the key word. India didn't pay much for the MKIs in the first place, IAF wants to double the cost with the MLU? I say no... Let MRCA and PAK FGFA deal with that mess.
I say they know what they are doing.

PAK FA will take care of IAF's Stealth requirements. I doubt they expect stealth miracles from MRCA. MRCA won't do Stealth wonders.
 
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nrj

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After Bramhos, its Nirbhay on MKI

India intends to integrate a variant of its Nirbhay long-range cruise missile on the Suhkoi Su-30MKI Flanker strike aircraft, following the weapon's initial development in the ground-launch configuration.

The addition of the Nirbhay to the Flanker's weapons inventory would give the platform a long-range—and potentially strategic—strike capability. While details on the Nirbhay program remain scant, Indian officials have suggested the weapon will have a range of 800-1,000 km. (500-620 mi.).

An air-launched derivative of the Nirbhay would be a candidate platform for the air force element of India's strategic nuclear triad ambitions. Packaging of a warhead in the constrained space of a cruise-missile body is a key technical challenge. The current Indian air force nuclear weapon capability consists almost certainly only of free-fall weapons.

The Nirbhay project is being led by India's Defense Research and Development Organization's (DRDO) Hyderabad-based Advanced Systems Laboratory.

The overall design and aerodynamic study work has been completed, as has the design of the propulsion system. There are suggestions that a mock-up of the design could be displayed at the AeroIndia show in 2011. A transporter erector launch vehicle is already being developed for the ground-launched version of the cruise missile by the DRDO's Pune-based Research and Development Establishment (Engineering).

The acquisition of a 1,000-km.-class cruise missile is part of New Delhi's strategy to match and surpass systems being developed by Islamabad. Pakistan is working on a ground-launched cruise missile called the Babur, likely with substantial Chinese help, and is probably receiving support from South Africa in developing the Ra'ad air-launched weapon. The Babur was unveiled in 2005 and the shorter-range Ra'ad was announced in 2007. The service status of both weapons remains uncertain.

Development of the Nirbhay apparently began at least five years ago. It would be the third indigenous weapon to equip the Su-30MKI, joining the Brahmos supersonic cruise missile—a variant of the NPO Mashinostroenia 3M55 (SS-N-26)—and the Astra medium-range air-to-air missile. The Nirbhay would have three times the range of the Brahmos. The army is also acquiring a ground-launched land-attack version of the Brahmos alongside the system in development for the air force.

An air-launched variant of the subsonic Nirbhay "is in the initial stages," says an Indian industry official. There are "plans for it, but not immediately," he adds.

The Nirbhay likely adopts a conventional cruise missile configuration with some form of flip-out mid-body wing and cruciform tail surfaces. The turbofan engine most likely will be recessed in the airframe body, given the requirement that the weapon be canister-launch-capable.

It is not yet clear which turbojet India plans to use for the Nirbhay. It did strike a deal with Russia over the supply and in-country manufacture of the Saturn 36MT engine in 2006, though the extent to which this deal has been implemented is uncertain.

There are also suggestions that India's development program has had some technical support from Israel.

Given the size of the Nirbhay—reports suggest it is 6 meters (19.6 ft.)—the Su-30MKI would likely carry one or two of the missiles. To maximize platform range, the aircraft could carry one weapon on a pylon in the tunnel between the two engine bays. This is the approach being taken with the Brahmos missile, which is now scheduled to begin initial launch trials from a test aircraft in 2011. If the aircraft were to carry two Nirbhays, one could fit under each inboard wing-station.

New Delhi has also yet to disclose what kinds of mid-course and terminal guidance the Nirbhay will use. India and Russia did, however, strike a deal this year allowing Indian access to the high-precision signal of Moscow's Glonass satellite navigation system.

In terms of medium-range standoff weapons, the Indian air force's Su-30MKI can carry the Russian Missile Corp. Kh-59M (AS-18 Kazoo). A conventional variant of the Nirbhay, with the requisite level of accuracy, would provide a long-range precision-strike complement to the Kh-59M.

Source
 
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