You left out the most obvious choice, outrunning it. Its not like there was an S-300 battery there. Ranges for simulated missiles are anywhere from 8-30km. Average is 15km. It isn't hard to outrun that. If you have an RWR that is worth a lick of salt, you should be able to avoid most. You could at least get one registered miss.
Oh! Yes I did. That is what I meant by maneuvering. Unless you have a different meaning for maneuvering then please enlighten me. And you are an idiot to believe that short range missiles can be deceived by just speed. If only speed was enough then we could all use the Mig-25, Mig-29s and F-15 for SEADs rather than the super slow Jaguars and Mig-27s.
You can out run long range missiles, not short range missiles. Meaning it is much more difficult to out run short range missiles without any counter measures than long range ones. The short range missiles are simply too fast for that. The MKIs were not allowed to use their Thrust vectors too. So, that was another downer.
Also, the MKI cannot hide it's RCS using high powered jammers like the SPECTRA either like what the Rafale can do.
A very important aspect of air warfare is to conserve fuel. Short range missiles and their equivalent manpads are simply too numerous for you to keep outmaneuvering them with your afterburners on. There were scenarios where IAF fighters had to dodge multiple SAMs while delivering their ordinance. They all did it just 2 or 3 kms above the surface too. An all of this was achieved by jammers and not maneuvers.
The MKI cannot escape short range SAMs by simply outmaneuvering them and neither can the Rafale, nor the F-22 without a jammer in place.
Spectra is a missile detection system first and a jammer last. If a threat is detected it tells you to move out of range. Tarang should have done the same thing but failed. The fact that there were no "unsuccessful kills" by Red Team SAMs on MKI means there is something very wrong.
As usual it is just your assumption which you tend to do a lot. The fact that the MKIs were over burdened by being blind played its part and the article you posted suggested just that.
You can cry a river for all the pilots who are going to get shot down in a real war.
That isn't a joke.
We won all the wars we fought using Russian weapons.
Spectra isn't just ECM, it also includes radar detectors, laser warning receivers, infrared missile approach warnings, and ELINT threat identification. A pilot's greatest ability to survive a threat is not its ability to jam, but having the situational awareness of where the threat is and its range.
Blah! Blah! Blah! What's your point. Come back after France has decided to remove the jammer from the system and see how obsolete and useless your system becomes.
Even the Americans are parading their stupid Growler Lite. It comes with everything you quoted and much more. But, not one Jammer. That makes it a piece of trash. You can have all the situational awareness you want to. But, you are merely quoting what the Lockheed officials are quoting about the F-35. "If the enemy is numerous we will simply run away."
MKIs were not part of any Blue Team SEAD missions since they left their Kh-31 pods at home, the EWs and medium range SAMs were already cleared out when MKIs arrived leaving only short range SAMs. Tarang should have provided situational awareness to save MKIs from kill removal at least some of the time, they were short range to very short range threats. MKI with a LITENING pod and simulated KAB-500L has a 17km range. You would only be flirting at the edge of the remaining TSRs.With a pair of powerful AL-31FP turbofans and clean stores the MKIs should have had every opportunity to escape a threat.
All you are saying are Short range SAMs are useless and need to be taken out like little bugs. Best of luck when France fights a war next.
Rafales were lugging around three fuel tanks increasing RCS and decreasing manoeuvrability. The MKIs were allowed clean stores to help level their chances yet they still failed to detect the threats. Read carefully what Choudry says,
Rafales RCS is still smaller than the MKI. Also the Rafale has to carry fuel tanks simply because it cannot carry more fuel internally. It is not a tactical advantage.
"When we were targeted by SAMs, we were shot down," Choudry said. "And there was no [data] picture in the cockpit to help our situational awareness so the work load on the [aircrews] was very high."
Just what I said earlier. The MKIs were blind and he is not talking about the RWR. IAf is very happy with the tarang and the Israelis took 6 years to integrate the radar, the jammer and the defensive systems on the MKI. They will be building the new Link 22 based datalink for us too.
Now you think he is only talking about lacking Link 16, MKIs were in their own data links as attested to by the USAF colonel, and had RWRs to paint a picture of the TSR threat on the ground. He is admitting Tarang didn't work or it doesn't enter the Russian data link. Either way, MKIs didn't have a situational awareness of ground based threats. There were 8 data linked MKIs in the air for the bombing campaign and they got whacked every time they entered the range of a SAM.
This is exactly what I meant by you are assuming way too much. He is admitting they did not have the AWACS picture. He has never spoken about the Tarang at all.
And stop joking about the Russians being inferior.
The Russians are known to have the
best integrated air defence system in the world. It is years ahead of anything Europe possess and it is feared by every European country in the NATO. Only the US comes close to the Russians and their systems are hardly as mobile as the Russians. And the MKIs have been tried and tested in the most capable air defence network in the world and has beaten the systems too.
Why else do you think the Americans are soon keen on checking the actual capabilities of the MKI?
As I already posted, there is video proving Rafales did more than "sucking trons" from the air, like dusting a flight of the 64ths F-16s. They also completed all of their bombing missions with several testimonials to the effectiveness of AASM launches at Red Flag. Simple fact is, Rafale dominated out of all the fighters there. USAF is just miffed they didn't get a chance to get more than 2 kills over two weeks at Red Flag.
I forget where it is, but there was a great interview with one of the 64ths F-16 pilots trying to explain why they were dusted by Rafale... excuse, oh Rafale is a different level of plane made long after F-16s inception.
Point it out to me if you find it. It would be a good watch.
A lock at 50 metres isn't BVR... duh. BVR is BEYOND visual range which is defined as 20nm or 37km. Those were the limitations placed on all fighters at Cope India 2004. F-15s lost because they were flying 4 against 12 with no BVRAAM. MKIs at Red Flag were making kills at BVR ranges which is 37km+. The radars were turned on high enough to go at least 37km and was needed to go several km beyond that to get tone for a BVRAAM. N011M training mode is 25% of peak power which is about 2kw and 45km range. At 45km and 8 data-linked MKIs their picture was not that bad.
More jokes. A lock at 50 metres using small wavelength bands is a BVR lock. What you are giving me is a text book definition, as usual. The literal meaning of BVR is exactly as you stated. However, simply because a text book says that does not mean it has to be followed word to word. A BVR lock is not restricted by range. You can take BVR shots from 2 kms away too.
Also, during exercises you can take BVR locks by word of mouth too. If you don't want to show off the capabilities of the radar, you can simply fly towards an aircraft and when you are at the right position with respect to the enemy you can announce a BVR lock to the observer. It is not a radar lock, rather it is a lock performed by your own experience in flying.
Problem is Tarang Mk2 wasn't operating effectively.
Funny how they managed to work in Israel and a really tough environment in Russia and somehow I should believe you simply because you assumed Mr Choudhary was saying something else.
There you go again. The radars were not turned off. They had a range of 45km and the receivers are still on in training mode. Should have had no problem sniffing RF L-band (1-2Ghz) and X band (8-12.5Ghz) transmissions in those ranges which gives you another ear you didn't know about. The Tarang Mk2 supposedly covers the 2-18Ghz range which should cover the whole threat library and data linked to all MKIs in the air.
You are not counting attenuation in the atmosphere. You are simply using direct proportionality theorem to calculate the 45km range. That's not how radars work. It is not if 10KW = 450km, 1 KW - 45km. That's high school mathematics and that is not how it works. A radar delivering 1-2KW power will go far. But the information that comes back will be very less compared to information received in a less electronically dense environment.
In Red Flag the MKIs were in the midst of very high powered electronic frequency all around it. The information that needs to be processed will be massive. In such an environment the training bands are next to useless. They are only useful in taking pot shots and prevent accidents.
Its rather fitting for your Soviet designed aircraft. That is exactly what VVS pilots do when they don't have a link to the Mainstay, which is 90% of their aircraft. Considering at the time of Red Flag you didn't have an AWACs to bring, it is reflective of where IAF was in 2008.
The main advantage of the MKI is the powerful radar, powerful and effective BVR missiles and stand off missiles. AWACS was only to give a picture to all the other aircraft. The MKIs would have done way way better if the BARS was fully powered.
OLS should warn you when the Smokey SAMs go off and give you direction and distance which will tell you where to turn your aircraft. Pretty important... If that doesn't work you can use the LITENING pod as a last ditch FLIR.
You can't beat a SR SAM by out running it without a Jammer mate. You can't beat missiles by staring at them.
Doesn't have anything to do with detecting the ground threat. That job goes to Tarang and that wasn't turned off.
Only your assumption. Perhaps next time a Boxer must simply stare at the opponent boxers arms, perhaps the arm will move away on its own. *rolls eyes*
The basic SAM tactic is to intermittently "flash" your radar to see whats around but cutting your transmission before a HARM lands on your head. Unless it is a MANPAD or AAA they won't wait until they visually see you. If they light you up they will fire.
Yes. So, it did not matter if the tarang picked up shots or not. The SAMs can see the MKIs anyway. They always have had the advantage.
The new age SAMs have their own emitters. So, they will not need a ground based radar painting the target for them.
They aren't carrying ground based jammers, just Red Air. You only need a distortion on the SAR to slew the LITENING pod to scan for targets.
Like I said, simply staring at the missile wont help. You will HAVE to beat it by using your counter measures. Luckily Rafales had the SPECTRA. Unfortunately the MKIs had nothing noteworthy on them to even participate in the exercise.
