Su-30 MKI

[Indianemperor]

The Russians claim the Irbis-E is better than the APG-77 AESA and the Americans vice versa. Can anyone provide the detailed info.

 

[Armand2REP]

The Russians claim the Irbis-E is better than the APG-77 AESA and the Americans vice versa. Can anyone provide the detailed info.

Irbis-E has some pretty unbelievable specs like detecting an RCS of .01^m2 at 90km. Do any of you really believe that?

 

[sunnyv]

Irbis-E has some pretty unbelievable specs like detecting an RCS of .01^m2 at 90km. Do any of you really believe that?

I agree with you - I cant believe that
If IRBIS can do that , guess what RBE2 and APG 79 achieve

 

[Armand2REP]

I agree with you - I cant believe that
If IRBIS can do that , guess what RBE2 and APG 79 achieve

Seriously, if Russia has radar that good then it makes every stealth aircraft in development obsolete. Yet I don't see the West really worrying about it.

 

[Indianemperor]

is an AESA radar better PESA radar.

 

[sunnyv]

is an AESA radar better PESA radar.

Dude i guess , you are new to forum - so Welcome first
Secondly your question- YES , why- just read on wiki

 

[JAISWAL]

IM i think this might help u http://qna.indiatimes.com/index.php?ref=permalinkquestion&question_id=232770

 

[JAISWAL]

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2009/08/tikhomirovs-niip-aesa-radar-for-pak-fa.html http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...79a7Post:b967dc21-1763-4f29-802d-a091b5e6495f

 

[Indianemperor]

thanks for the link Praveen.

 

[JAISWAL]

IM above link have good khow how of irbis-e
if u r not satisfied then senior member can help thanks

 

[JAISWAL]

few mor links http://www.deagel.com/Aircraft-Warners-and-Sensors/Irbis_a001800001.aspx

 

[p2prada]

My dear friend these are suggested - currently no su30mki is carrying those EW suite ,

Su-30MKI carries an Elta EL/M-8222 EW suite. It is the same thing fitted onto Israeli F-15s.

 

[StealthSniper]

Anyone know when Irbis will be added to the Su-30MKI? I know their was supposed to be a 3 stage upgrade to the MKI but I haven't heard anything since. Also I heard that the MKI would have a reduced RCS in the future (special paint coating). Any insight is appreciated.

 

[notinlove]

Prove it - Irbis is stronger and
Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.
Just bcoz manufacturer says so - You must be Joking

Irbis has a peak power output of 20 Killowatts,and a diameter smaller than only the zaslon PESA as of today, if you knew anything about radars and power apertures , you wouldn't be saying things like that. find me another fighter based radar which has this kind of power aperture ratings and i would gladly concede . and if you don't believe the manufacturers claims then you should quit surfing through defenceforums cos 99.99 percent figures are manufacturer's claims , defence equipment generally doesn't go for third party evaluations and when it does figures are not made public you know.

and i will give you data why Spectra is Better than on MKI



If you believe that Russian EW/electronic equipment and software is better than western - as i said there is no point in discussion.
They in first place did not make a processeor powerfull enough to analyse data for BARS- thats why India placed its own cental processor ,
If those EW were great at that level , why was India forced to put ISRAEL's pod . By logic it would have been better/economical to continue with that why put something Inferior as Western tech when you have luxury of advanced Russian EW tech.

India bought MKI in 2001 growler joined service in late 2009 , a lot changes in 10 years you know. they made the bloody su-27 in 1980's and deemed it unneccesary to upgrade them so they didn't make a radar computer , its got nothing to do with capability and all to do with requirements, moreover they came up with their equivalents of the growlers pods, if the IAF wants it they can buy it , but they won't because they are not as dumb as you.

uff- you got it wrong , i did not mean su30 will become growler like. I meant if india purchases f18 they can be converted to Growler lite, so if you are comparing EW suite of every MRCA why not E18 which is possibility if Boeing wins tender.

It all depends on requirement, if the need arises even the MKI can be transformed into an EW version with those pods. and BTW just so you know we will need to get ALQ-99 cleared by the US senate if we want it and i definitely don't see that being that easy.

And regarding Apples and oranges- Su30 comparison with Gripen is also not justified , why compare two diff class of jets(but that is thing most forum's post do comparing su30 with MRCA). If you are justifying that, no harm in comparing su30 with other contenders.
Mig21 replacement with F18/Rafale - Is like apples with oranges

i was not comparing anything to anything , i was just stating that su-30 is not as incompetent as you are trying to portray it, it was you who were making statements like
"How can one even imagine A SU30 matching F18 esp GROWLER"
"MKI bcoz of its large RCS and size will be detected much earlier and believe me if you are downplaying RBE2, CAPTOR bcoz of its power then its totally wrong ( whatever less range it has over BARS - will be compensated bcoz of large size of MKI)"
You have no idea about LO shaping and why it is next to useless on planes which hang their weapons externally.

And why does india need MRCA- it is basically advanced tech for which it wants to pay huge money,
Su30 if quoted as good as it was in NETWORK CENTRIC warfare - it would have been logical to buy more of them against inferior/costly western jets.
If you say rapid filling numbers - I dont buy that

I got two words for you , Diversification and Operating costs....and yeah we are getting advanced technology .. no doubt about that..but that still does not make MKI ineffective
If you are talking about network centric warfare then again you are missing something, we are not going to use datalinks of MMRCA planes. we are making oir own, so all our fighters are going to be on the same level in that area.

Su30 costs only marginally more than what is the cost of upgrading old Mirage. Why do you think India is justified in shelling so much money????????????
And that too not envolving Engines+airframe.
You might say weapons - But still not confirmed

Operating costs... greedy french also

Its wrong to say making a fundamental mistake , atleast a airforce as professional as IAF would not do so, Tactics perhaps may be
And experience well - Sq which flew to Nellis was from pune (first sq which received su30mki and i am sure out of all of them atleast 50% would have had enough experience on these Jets ,not everyone would be rookie. )
Its the way you operate and also participate in exercise- Mix experience+rokie

Any link for highlighted part above -like F22 being grilled?????

Indian pilots flying Su-30MKIs are extremely professional, but they're still learning how to best fight with their new aircraft.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...lot Critiques Red Flag Action&channel=defense

U.S. pilots conclude that the Su-30MKI is "not [an F-22] Raptor," he further says. "That was good for us to find out." But when the Indian pilots really learn to fight their new aircraft -
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...lot Critiques Red Flag Action&channel=defense

The F-15 pilots used their simulated combat experience against the thrust vectoring capability of the Lockheed Martin F-22 to exploit a vulnerability of the Su-30 in a hard turn,
http://jcbot.com/news/142

Read between the lines

Discussion wise , I am not going any further bcoz ,i can not convince you if you believe Russians are better at making EW equipment and Avionics better than Americans.
As i said earlier if you prove IRBIS is better than APG79/RBE2 AESA you have 100% proof rt
i will upload you pdf file why Spectra is best
I believe russia has always been catching up to what western world produces-
Whether its
Glass cockpit
Digital displays
AESA radar
HOTAS
FADEC

USA did it first and many years back

Whatever ,You'r belief means squat to me. you are just being stubborn and unwilling to change the perception you made of russian equipment while you were a kid.

 

[notinlove]

I agree with you - I cant believe that
If IRBIS can do that , guess what RBE2 and APG 79 achieve

RBE2 cannot achieve anything close to that ,its not because it is inferior, just because it is smaller and the plane carrying it is also smaller , so it just cant produce that kind of power and its radius is small so it just cant have that good a power aperture product , ever.

same for APG-79 , though it is an AESA so it will be better at tracking , but it will also never get close to that kind of power aperture ratings. Period

 

[JAISWAL]

sir, is the conversion of mki into f-18 g will b fissible for iaf as awacs can do the eletronic war

 

[sunnyv]

Irbis has a peak power output of 20 Killowatts,and a diameter smaller than only the zaslon PESA as of today, if you knew anything about radars and power apertures , you wouldn't be saying things like that. find me another fighter based radar which has this kind of power aperture ratings and i would gladly concede . and if you don't believe the manufacturers claims then you should quit surfing through defenceforums cos 99.99 percent figures are manufacturer's claims , defence equipment generally doesn't go for third party evaluations and when it does figures are not made public you know.



India bought MKI in 2001 growler joined service in late 2009 , a lot changes in 10 years you know. they made the bloody su-27 in 1980's and deemed it unneccesary to upgrade them so they didn't make a radar computer , its got nothing to do with capability and all to do with requirements, moreover they came up with their equivalents of the growlers pods, if the IAF wants it they can buy it , but they won't because they are not as dumb as you.







It all depends on requirement, if the need arises even the MKI can be transformed into an EW version with those pods. and BTW just so you know we will need to get ALQ-99 cleared by the US senate if we want it and i definitely don't see that being that easy.



i was not comparing anything to anything , i was just stating that su-30 is not as incompetent as you are trying to portray it, it was you who were making statements like
"How can one even imagine A SU30 matching F18 esp GROWLER"
"MKI bcoz of its large RCS and size will be detected much earlier and believe me if you are downplaying RBE2, CAPTOR bcoz of its power then its totally wrong ( whatever less range it has over BARS - will be compensated bcoz of large size of MKI)"
You have no idea about LO shaping and why it is next to useless on planes which hang their weapons externally.



I got two words for you , Diversification and Operating costs....and yeah we are getting advanced technology .. no doubt about that..but that still does not make MKI ineffective
If you are talking about network centric warfare then again you are missing something, we are not going to use datalinks of MMRCA planes. we are making oir own, so all our fighters are going to be on the same level in that area.



Operating costs... greedy french also









Read between the lines



Whatever ,You'r belief means squat to me. you are just being stubborn and unwilling to change the perception you made of russian equipment while you were a kid.

I would say stating things abt IRBIS - Just reading manufacturer lines .
IF MANUFACTURER;s WORD's are DIVINE- they also claim Spectra is best ,What ever i wrote abt SPECTRA/PIRATE then holds true-
Just look at the performance of retired F14's radar in comparison to BARS

F14 rt that was what atleast 15 years back they matched BARS performance.
Here are some quotes on APG79
There is enough unclassified data available at this time to perform a reasonable estimation of performance bounds on this radar, with the caveat that evolving transistor technology over the life cycle of the design will see shifts in performance. The radar is known to have ~1100 modules, which assuming like per module power rating, cooling and X-band wavelength would result in around 70 percent of the power rating of the APG-77. This puts the radar broadly between 10 kW and 20 kW peak power ratings. Public data comparing the APG-71, APG-73 and APG-79 yields an indication that the radar has similar power aperture product performance to the 10 kW rated APG-71, which for half the antenna area yields a peak power rating of the order of 20 kW. This data supports the proposition that the radar is a 20 kW peak power class design.
In general, the peak power rating of an AESA is determined by the per module power rating multiplied by the number of elements, with some reduction resulting from the taper function which is used to weight power output per module, so that sidelobes and mainlobe shape can be optimised. A 20 kW peak power AESA with a 15% allowance for taper function yields for instance a per module rating, for 1100 modules, of around 21 Watts. The average power output of the radar is then limited by the duty cycle of operation, and power consumption overheads incurred by drivers, and phase and control elements in the modules



Moreover you stated that you are always100% sure , bro Russians always hype everything just read ARMAND2REP post ,
your 100% proof is a HTML page nothing else and if you work in NIIP LAB its a different issue ,
and just stating on basis of webpage that to a level calling me dumb ------ ok cool to me

Discussion wise lets stop it there - You are just being unreasonable and overly Agressive,
If you believe su30Mki is best and nothing beats that - Good for you and IAF
I believe what i read atleast 100 times that is, Electronics wise MRCA are superior to MKI

 

[notinlove]

Calling me kid and dumb, i would say stating things abt IRBIS - just shows level of knowledge you hold . Just reading few manufacturer lines
IF MANUFACTURER;s WORD's are DIVINE- they also claim Spectra is best ,What ever i wrote abt SPECTRA/PIRATE then holds true-

Moreover saying that I am 100% sure , bro Russians always hype everything just read ARMAND2REP post ,
your 100% proof is a HTML page nothing else, and just stating on basis of that to level calling me dumb ------ok cool to me

Discussion wise lets stop it there - You are just being unreasonable and overly Agressive,
If you believe su30Mki is best and nothing beats that - Good for you and IAF

If you feel offended i am sorry.i just dint like the fact that you were mis-stating commonly knows facts.

And i don't believe MKI is the best, but i do believe that its not the worst , something that you have been saying ove and over again in your posts

i just want to know one thing, if you don't believe manufacturers claims then what do you believe ? and where do you get your information from ?

and Better not take armand's posts as the gospel truth.

 

[sunnyv]

Su-30MKI carries an Elta EL/M-8222 EW suite. It is the same thing fitted onto Israeli F-15s.

Thnx
But that is ISRAEL manufactured/Western , not an russian product .
I still believe Russians are not at par with West

 

[sunnyv]

If you feel offended i am sorry.i just dint like the fact that you were mis-stating commonly knows facts.

And i don't believe MKI is the best, but i do believe that its not the worst , something that you have been saying ove and over again in your posts

i just want to know one thing, if you don't believe manufacturers claims then what do you believe ? and where do you get your information from ?

and Better not take armand's posts as the gospel truth.

I never said MKI is worst
I am proud of MKI as much as any INDIAN
Thing is i compared it to MRCA contenders - Where it is not upto mark atleast in Electronics.