Su-30 MKI

[JAISWAL]

sunny- as u said with all is mordern avonics they are a headeac but in mlu mki may also b a match 4 them my 2 cent

 

[JAISWAL]

As i heard on BR Forum su compony is willing to provide some 5 gen technoly for mki in mlu
What u say

 

[SATISH]

As Satish stated above "The LCA lacks the range and payload that the MMRCA offers.Hence you are again comparing apples to oranges".....how will the LCA offer multi-role capabilities.

Well it is a point defence aircraft with "LIMITED" multirole capability. It wasnt envisages as one.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Improved , but how will it fare against Eurobird,Gripen,Rafale has to be seen.
Plz do remember - The top notch Avionics and EW equipment on western birds give them an overwhelming situational awareness- I doubt russia can match them , till Pakfa comes out and we can see that & analyse

What exactly(in terms of avionics) are you talking about? Today MKI have all that is available on any other 4.5 gen jet anywhere in world. IT has got data link, a comprehensive soft kill solution, very very effective self protection system, an extremely potent radar.

Just by looking at air intakes of mki and rafale you will be able to tell the stealth/Lo factor envolved in designing rafale( even if only minute).

Yes but has also got RANGE and twice powerful engine. And yes Rafale have small intakes enabling LO feature but it comes at the cost of speed. So in my opinion it is all about doctrine....

Support that western jets get from ground based assets+AWACS in comparison to what we have is many folds ahead, so no doubt they will have first BVR shot
If MKI survives then MKI will be able to fire back (also depends on missile used - I can bet any given day a pilot would love to go with METEOR/AMRAAM/AIM120 AE than R77ae)

MKI have a silent kill option IRST + R-73 which can nail any fighter any day. And gound support have very little to do with BVR. In BVR all that is needed is an AWACS networked with fighters. When integrated with MKIs then they will be equally effective. And even without AWACS MKI have a chance to fire first shot because of its extremely long range radar which till this date is unmatched in terms of detection rage and tracking. About METEOR and AMRAAM. They are not fail safe weapon, i will not talk about METEOR but against all hype AMRAAM have some 80% kill ratio that too against target drones which as a mater of fact carries no countermeasures.

and finally in WVR - A pilot with better skills in ACM(dogfighting)+ Jet with better Maneuverability + More powerful and advanced engines ( Supercruise is one , TVC is another) + better weapons like ASRAAM/PYTHON5 will come out winner[/B]

According to my knowledge IAF is desperately trying to get Newer missiles devloped for its russian fighter

Here MKI wins hands down, in fact there is no western fighter in the world except F-22 which can match MKI dog fight performance. R-73 is no dud, it is equally competitive though not combat proven like SIDEWINDER or PYTHON...

 

[JAISWAL]

i totally agree with u as mki with awacs can compensate for his rc and can aim these mmrca from long range with r77

 

[sunnyv]

R-77 and R-73 have been off target , you all are forgetting CAG report stating that Russian missile were off target and less reliable.

Secondly there is no way MKI will have advantage in BVR range- cmon we all know its RCS is WAY up 12-15m2 , and all new design have rcs around 1 or less( Just search a bit and you would know), what does it mean - simple MKI bcoz of its large RCS and size will be detected much earlier and believe me if you are downplaying RBE2, CAPTOR bcoz of its power then its totally wrong ( whatever less range it has over BARS - will be compensated bcoz of large size of MKI)

And PLZ donot compare METEOR with R73 - Just read all credible stats from Janes/ FAS you would know
R73 is short-range missile + Meteor will win Hands down in all aspects Anti-jamming,Range,Maneuver etc.

And the most imp thing i was talking - was EW equipement on MRCA jets
SPECTRA,PIRATE are generation ahead - Fusion tech which tightly integrates with these aircraft's heart was built from start to be a Flanker specific during cold war.
Su30MKI has been given a optional EW pod from DARE and RWR from TARANG (su30 never had a countersystem like this what we have in MKI are makeshift/ optional Israel DARE pod) and till MAYAWI comes out it will never be at par with Rafale/Eurobird .
We already have a decent discussion in BR forum abt rafale,Eurofighter TEch analysis only - I can give a link plz follow that(it will just give all information regarding electronics of MRCA jets and their class+Dominance
How can one even imagine A SU30 matching F18 esp GROWLER
Thats why i said PAKFA can have a descent EW suite bcoz Russian have been saying to give it tightly integrated EW suite - being reffered as AI artificial intelligence, not before it.

RAFALE cockpit

Sukhoi30MKI cockpit

Gripen's cockpit

Su-35 cockpit

 

[notinlove]

R-77 and R-73 have been off target , you all are forgetting CAG report stating that Russian missile were off target and less reliable.

The problems were rectified and nobody knows the reason for the malfunction , could have been poor handling and storage, the fact remains that as of today R-77 is one of the deadliest if not the most deadly BVR missile in the world.

Secondly there is no way MKI will have advantage in BVR range- cmon we all know its RCS is WAY up 12-15m2 , and all new design have rcs around 1 or less( Just search a bit and you would know), what does it mean - simple MKI bcoz of its large RCS and size will be detected much earlier and believe me if you are downplaying RBE2, CAPTOR bcoz of its power then its totally wrong ( whatever less range it has over BARS - will be compensated bcoz of large size of MKI)

Sheer naivety my friend........those fancy RCS figures you hear all along are nothing but fancy figures. when you tack on missiles and fuel tanks on external pylons then clean configuration RCS means zilch.
but even with those fancy figures , an MKI upgraded with the IRBIS E will detect rafale or EF at about the same range as them detecting it. you might wanna check out the performance figures of the IRBIS i guarantee you will be amazed
and for your info BVR is not just about detection ranges and missile ranges , the kinematic performance of the aircraft have a huge role to play, no BVR missile has a 100 percent kill guarantee , you can out maneuver and out run them if you aircraft is good enough and that is where the MKI rules.

And PLZ donot compare METEOR with R73 - Just read all credible stats from Janes/ FAS you would know
R73 is short-range missile + Meteor will win Hands down in all aspects Anti-jamming,Range,Maneuver etc.

nobody is comparing the meteor to anything because it is not in service yet why would we be comparing a paper missile to a missile that was in service in 1994(R-77 , i assume you meant the adder because meteor vs R-73 is just plain stupidity)
just so you know , the russians are also working on newer generation missiles. and if you wanna read about r-73 , please go and read about how it made the brits shit their pants and change the whole ASRAAM program

And the most imp thing i was talking - was EW equipement on MRCA jets
SPECTRA,PIRATE are generation ahead - Fusion tech which tightly integrates with these aircraft's heart was built from start to be a Flanker specific during cold war.
Su30MKI has been given a optional EW pod from DARE and RWR from TARANG (su30 never had a countersystem like this what we have in MKI are makeshift/ optional Israel DARE pod) and till MAYAWI comes out it will never be at par with Rafale/Eurobird .

just ask and thou shalt be obliged

Russia's Kaluga Scientific Research Institute of Radio Engineering (KNIRTI), the primary supplier of self-protection suites for Sukhoi aircraft, revealed a number of new electronic warfare (EW) technology enhancements for Su-27/30, Su-30MK and Su-32/34 aircraft at the MAKS 2009 airshow.


Next-generation systems on display included a single-pod centreline SAP 14 and a twin-pod SAP 518 EW jammer. The two systems are part of KNIRTI's marketing effort to sell its EW catalogue to domestic and foreign customers for the Su-30MK-series fighters, which have been the strongest-selling model of the Su-27 derivatives. Su-30MK series aircraft are operated by China, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Venezuela, Vietnam and Indonesia.
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes...-KNIRTI-and-BARP-display-new-jammer-pods.html

The heavyweight high power KNIRTI SAP-14 Support Jammer ECM pod is a Russian analogue to the US ALQ-99E pod carried on the EA-6B Prowler and EA-18G Growler. It was developed for Flanker family aircraft and is carried on a large centreline pylon. To date little has been disclosed about this design, but it has been observed on the Su-30MK Flanker G/H and Su-34 Fullback. It operates between 1 GHz and 4 GHz (© 2009 Vitaliy V. Kuzmin).

The KNIRTI SAP-518 ECM pod is a new technology replacement for the established L005 Sorbstiya series wingtip ECM pods. It operates between 5 GHz and 18 GHz (© 2009 Vitaliy V. Kuzmin).
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Su-35S-Flanker.html

i strongly suggest you read the above article.

We already have a decent discussion in BR forum abt rafale,Eurofighter TEch analysis only - I can give a link plz follow that(it will just give all information regarding electronics of MRCA jets and their class+Dominance
How can one even imagine A SU30 matching F18 esp GROWLER
Thats why i said PAKFA can have a descent EW suite bcoz Russian have been saying to give it tightly integrated EW suite - being reffered as AI artificial intelligence, not before it.

You really need to get more info, the statement in bold is really funny you are comparing apples to oranges, a dedicated EW version to a dedicated air dominance version , if you are going for a normal F-18 then the MKI kicks its ass any given day, if you are talking about the growler then it even downed a F-22 , so it all comes down to the pilot and the environment

the AI is not a EW suite , it is just a system to reduce pilot workload.
and cocpits can be upgraded whenever you want them.

 

[gogbot]

nobody is comparing the meteor to anything because it is not in service yet why would we be comparing a paper missile to a missile that was in service in 1994(R-77 , i assume you meant the adder because meteor vs R-73 is just plain stupidity)
just so you know , the russians are also working on newer generation missiles. and if you wanna read about r-73 , please go and read about how it made the brits shit their pants and change the whole ASRAAM program

How does our own Astra BVR compare.

Since we have had time to tinker and work with the R-77 .
I would be expecting an improvement on that.

You really need to get more info, the statement in bold is really funny you are comparing apples to oranges, a dedicated EW version to a dedicated air dominance version , if you are going for a normal F-18 then the MKI kicks its ass any given day, if you are talking about the growler then it even downed a F-22 , so it all comes down to the pilot and the environment

the AI is not a EW suite , it is just a system to reduce pilot workload.
and cocpits can be upgraded whenever you want them.

weren't there reports of Sukhoi working on a similar EW suit to that of the Growler.

To be placed on the Su-30.

 

[notinlove]

How does our own Astra BVR compare.

Since we have had time to tinker and work with the R-77 .
I would be expecting an improvement on that.

Don't expect much, its average , but being in house made it is cost effective and reconfigurable and that is its plus point, no world beater for sure

Edit :
BTW , astra is configured like western missiles with delta configuration fins , which ensures more maneuverability at slow speeds and more drag at high speeds , ehereas the R-77 has lattice fins which give it high maneuverability at high speeds but it loses its maneuverability if it loses its speed ... so personally i see a little change in tactics by IAF

weren't there reports of Sukhoi working on a similar EW suit to that of the Growler.

To be placed on the Su-30.

read previous post, i have given links about knirti sap jammers

 

[notinlove]

For those who are interested in turn rates,

Astra has turn rate of 40 g at sea level

R-77 has a turn rate of 150 degrees per second(no altitude specified)

I think we had a thread here somewhere , on which you can find the conversion formula , if interested you can find it out and do the maths

 

[gogbot]

Don't expect much, its average , but being in house made it is cost effective and reconfigurable and that is its plus point, no world beater for sure

Edit :
BTW , astra is configured like western missiles with delta configuration fins , which ensures more maneuverability at slow speeds and more drag at high speeds , ehereas the R-77 has lattice fins which give it high maneuverability at high speeds but it loses its maneuverability if it loses its speed ... so personally i see a little change in tactics by IAF

any specific reason why the Astra is only average. Where does it lack ?

Also any info

On the Chinese PL-12/SD-10

Considering most of PAF air-force will be shooting these missiles.

 

[JAISWAL]

as for long range wont this r-172 b enough to take them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_K-100

 

[JAISWAL]

As these r-172 awacs killer can also b used for killing those mmrca what u say

 

[JAISWAL]

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/weapon/pl12.asp
sir this link give status of pl 12

 

[notinlove]

any specific reason why the Astra is only average. Where does it lack ?

Also any info

On the Chinese PL-12/SD-10

Considering most of PAF air-force will be shooting these missiles.

We know nothing about both of these missiles, all of the numbers are just speculations nobody knows whats true , nobody knows about the seeker on both of them so i would refrain from commenting , but the truth remains that they do not add anything significant, no ramjet , ranges comparable to 20 year old missiles and seekers most probably are copies of the agat seeker on both , so i would rate both average.

 

[notinlove]

as for long range wont this r-172 b enough to take them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_K-100

Look , long range is good but longer the range more is the time available to the target aircraft for evasive maneuvers , as i stated before these are not 100 percent kill guarantee missiles
for an example AIM 120 A/B/C had a 50 percent kill ration in actual combat scenario that too against soft targets without ECM devices and poorly trained pilots and equipment etc. .. i don't think 120 D breaks any new ground
and when you look at k172 it gives the target even more time.

Another aspect is that k 172 is a huge missile , extremely long and basic physics dicttaes that the longer the missile the less maneuverable it will be . so trying to hit those small MMRCA planes with a K100 will be like trying to kill a fly with a stone . the k 100 is suitable to kill or rather force to withdraw enemy AEW&C aircraft and in turn claim airspace superiority from a long stand off distance.

What is interesting though is the new missiles russians are said to be developing for the PAK FA lets see if the put anyting ground breaking in it , i have got my fingers crossed.

 

[sunnyv]

Sheer naivety my friend........those fancy RCS figures you hear all along are nothing but fancy figures. when you tack on missiles and fuel tanks on external pylons then clean configuration RCS means zilch.
but even with those fancy figures , an MKI upgraded with the IRBIS E will detect rafale or EF at about the same range as them detecting it. you might wanna check out the performance figures of the IRBIS i guarantee you will be amazed
and for your info BVR is not just about detection ranges and missile ranges , the kinematic performance of the aircraft have a huge role to play, no BVR missile has a 100 percent kill guarantee , you can out maneuver and out run them if you aircraft is good enough and that is where the MKI rules.

I think you are reading more off carlo Kopp article - If you are ready to laugh off the reduced RCS of MRCA and telling me that su30 has same RCS as these- Let me tell you this man (carlo kopp- Flanker obsessed/biggest fan of flankers) has himself quoted these figures , How can you say the IRBIS detection range is not a publicity stunt and 100% correct info.
And how do you suggest that Eurofighter/others wont escape from incoming BVR missile, you mean to say only MKI can do that and all other aircrafts would be standing to get hit

nobody is comparing the meteor to anything because it is not in service yet why would we be comparing a paper missile to a missile that was in service in 1994(R-77 , i assume you meant the adder because meteor vs R-73 is just plain stupidity)
just so you know , the russians are also working on newer generation missiles. and if you wanna read about r-73 , please go and read about how it made the brits shit their pants and change the whole ASRAAM program

Just read the posts before , someone compared R73 to Meteor thats why i commented
And PAPER missile- I think you need to read more- It has been test fired from RAFALE,EUROFIGHTER,GRIPEN- i can give a link if you want
That means you will say ASTRA is in DESIGNING phase atleast your comment does suggest

And those pods ,article which you have given from AUSAIRPOWER - Just ask other members of this forum , how credible CARLO KOPP article are.
My dear friend these are suggested - currently no su30mki is carrying those EW suite ,
what it does carry is - http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html ( read section on EW/DEFENCE suite). What i said was correct TARANG+DARE module is what MKI carries.
And plz dont suggest MKI EW suite is better than PIRATE/SPECTRA - if you are there is no point in discussion

You really need to get more info, the statement in bold is really funny you are comparing apples to oranges, a dedicated EW version to a dedicated air dominance version , if you are going for a normal F-18 then the MKI kicks its ass any given day, if you are talking about the growler then it even downed a F-22 , so it all comes down to the pilot and the environment

Well i compared it bcoz F18 is one of MRCA contender, Recently AUStralia converted all their F18E to a wired equipment that can be converted to GROWLER later
India also can do so
And MKI kicking ????? Super hornet , i would say advantage to MKI in ACM . But weapons/Radar wise its advantage F18E
Now it comes down to pilot skills bcoz if its BVR advantage to Hornet , WVR is to MKI
There is nothing sure shot kill for any of these- both of them are 4th gen , each having its own advantages
What we saw in RED FLAG interview video - Mki is excellent but nothing as invincible, F15 beat them consistently in WVR and ACM and that too in clean configuration, depends on whole lot of factor than aircraft alone.

the AI is not a EW suite , it is just a system to reduce pilot workload.
and cocpits can be upgraded whenever you want them.

I take that point.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Rather than focusing on range if someone can improve on the 50% success rate average ;it would make a bigger improvement.

 

[notinlove]

I think you are reading more off carlo Kopp article - If you are ready to laugh off the reduced RCS of MRCA and telling me that su30 has same RCS as these- Let me tell you this man (carlo kopp- Flanker obsessed/biggest fan of flankers) has himself quoted these figures , How can you say the IRBIS detection range is not a publicity stunt and 100% correct info.

Straight from the horses mouth

Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.
http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/

I never give figures until i am 100 percent sure.
Kopp might be flanker obsessed but he doesn't write bullshit , he knows a thousand times more than me or you on this.

And how do you suggest that Eurofighter/others wont escape from incoming BVR missile, you mean to say only MKI can do that and all other aircrafts would be standing to get hit

Did i say so?? i just mean that the MKI is better than MMRCA candidates at this because of its maneuverability.

Just read the posts before , someone compared R73 to Meteor thats why i commented
And PAPER missile- I think you need to read more- It has been test fired from RAFALE,EUROFIGHTER,GRIPEN- i can give a link if you want
That means you will say ASTRA is in DESIGNING phase atleast your comment does suggest

Ok i agree i shouldn't have called it a paper missile but my point was that don't compare meteor to a 20 year old missile.

And those pods ,article which you have given from AUSAIRPOWER - Just ask other members of this forum , how credible CARLO KOPP article are.
My dear friend these are suggested - currently no su30mki is carrying those EW suite ,
what it does carry is - http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html ( read section on EW/DEFENCE suite). What i said was correct TARANG+DARE module is what MKI carries.
And plz dont suggest MKI EW suite is better than PIRATE/SPECTRA - if you are there is no point in discussion

IAF is not buying it does not mean it does not exist. period ,
BTW you consider Pirate and spectra so good let us hear what you know about them, how good are they , do give the parameters on which you are measuring their effectiveness and how does the Knirti jammer does not even compare .

Well i compared it bcoz F18 is one of MRCA contender, Recently AUStralia converted all their F18E to a wired equipment that can be converted to GROWLER later
India also can do so
And MKI kicking ????? Super hornet , i would say advantage to MKI in ACM . But weapons/Radar wise its advantage F18E
Now it comes down to pilot skills bcoz if its BVR advantage to Hornet , WVR is to MKI
There is nothing sure shot kill for any of these- both of them are 4th gen , each having its own advantages
What we saw in RED FLAG interview video - Mki is excellent but nothing as invincible, F15 beat them consistently in WVR and ACM and that too in clean configuration, depends on whole lot of factor than aircraft alone.

and a post earlier you were saying "How can one even imagine A SU30 matching F18 esp GROWLER"
way to go .......
Edit: BTW you might wanna read or hear that red flag briefing again.MKI lost in WVR because indian pilots were new to their planes and kept making a fundamental mistake , new pilots on even F-22 made the same mistake and got grilled , there is nothing wrong with the plane,

 

[sunnyv]

I never give figures until i am 100 percent sure.
Kopp might be flanker obsessed but he doesn't write bullshit , he knows a thousand times more than me or you on this.

Prove it - Irbis is stronger and
Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.
Just bcoz manufacturer says so - You must be Joking

and i will give you data why Spectra is Better than on MKI

BTW you consider Pirate and spectra so good let us hear what you know about them, how good are they , do give the parameters on which you are measuring their effectiveness and how does the Knirti jammer does not even compare .

If you believe that Russian EW/electronic equipment and software is better than western - as i said there is no point in discussion.
They in first place did not make a processeor powerfull enough to analyse data for BARS- thats why India placed its own cental processor ,
If those EW were great at that level , why was India forced to put ISRAEL's pod . By logic it would have been better/economical to continue with that why put something Inferior as Western tech when you have luxury of advanced Russian EW tech.[/qoute]

and a post earlier you were saying "How can one even imagine A SU30 matching F18 esp GROWLER"
way to go .......

uff- you got it wrong , i did not mean su30 will become growler like. I meant if india purchases f18 they can be converted to Growler lite, so if you are comparing EW suite of every MRCA why not E18 which is possibility if Boeing wins tender.

And regarding Apples and oranges- Su30 comparison with Gripen is also not justified , why compare two diff class of jets(but that is thing most forum's post do comparing su30 with MRCA). If you are justifying that, no harm in comparing su30 with other contenders.
Mig21 replacement with F18/Rafale - Is like apples with oranges

And why does india need MRCA- it is basically advanced tech for which it wants to pay huge money,
Su30 if quoted as good as it was in NETWORK CENTRIC warfare - it would have been logical to buy more of them against inferior/costly western jets.
If you say rapid filling numbers - I dont buy that

Su30 costs only marginally more than what is the cost of upgrading old Mirage. Why do you think India is justified in shelling so much money????????????
And that too not envolving Engines+airframe.
You might say weapons - But still not confirmed

Edit: BTW you might wanna read or hear that red flag briefing again.MKI lost in WVR because indian pilots were new to their planes and kept making a fundamental mistake , new pilots on even F-22 made the same mistake and got grilled , there is nothing wrong with the plane,

Its wrong to say making a fundamental mistake , atleast a airforce as professional as IAF would not do so, Tactics perhaps may be
And experience well - Sq which flew to Nellis was from pune (first sq which received su30mki and i am sure out of all of them atleast 50% would have had enough experience on these Jets ,not everyone would be rookie. )
Its the way you operate and also participate in exercise- Mix experience+rokie

Any link for highlighted part above -like F22 being grilled?????

Discussion wise , I am not going any further bcoz ,i can not convince you if you believe Russians are better at making EW equipment and Avionics better than Americans.
As i said earlier if you prove IRBIS is better than APG79/RBE2 AESA you have 100% proof rt
i will upload you pdf file why Spectra is best
I believe russia has always been catching up to what western world produces-
Whether its
Glass cockpit
Digital displays
AESA radar
HOTAS
FADEC

USA did it first and many years back