Small arms and Light Weapons

[Johny_Baba]

Our 9mms are worst of the all.. I had fired both Glock and our 9mm(during training so not so much rounds).. Personally i felt its easier to fire brownings than glocks as due to the weight brownings had less vertical jump than glocks. But if you fire 10 rounds from Browning there will be atleast 2 misfires. . Brownings are not a reliable weapon to bring to a firefight.(again solely based on my experience from multiple incidents and multiple ofb 9mm autos)
PS: one reason may be all those pistols were training issued once which may had worn out of firing, but then again the level of cleaning done in training centres is unmatched with any active units. Also the quality of indian made 9mm round and also the build quality of ofb too matters.

Most likely worn out weapon or as usual QA Issues,otherwise Browning Hi-Power is one of the most reliable no-nonsense pistol design out there, has gotten derivatives like Jericho, Cz-75 and what not,
Heck even original FN Herstal is bringing out newer derivatives with improvements

( note - although i am kind of unsure whether to call this new one a ;real; hi power, mainly because they have changed locking mechanism consisting barrel and slide - now it's more Glock-like than hi power style but maybe it's ok those design works mostly same way, tilting locking barrel, just differs in way how-where barrel locks with the slide, and of course are short recoil pattern designs...)

We, well we got License + ToT of canadian variant of Hi Power pistol from Inglis firearms and kept on manufacturing it in same older way since then, never bothered with improvising or even making newer better variants/derivatives out of that design, and mixed with desi made ammo - yeah it all shows...

but again, as i mentioned previously somewhere, armed forces themselves consider pistols as a ;lesser; weapn so there isn't really a need-motive etc to improvise at there...

There is a kahawat,
'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink',
guess our army is that adiyal ghoda that don't see much usefulness in equipping soldiers with pistols except CI guys or afsars or other specialised roles, reasons being limited offensive capabilities in a typical pistol and so,
giving them a motive//motivating them to replace those (mostly still workable) Pistol 9mm 1A is a bigger challenge than actually giving them a desi replacement pistol in my view,
otherwise we would've already gone Glock way as standard issue thing here...and in most cases they have supplemented those needs with MP-9 machine pistol-SMG here as it's compact enough to be used as a pistol-like thing on semi auto, if not that then Glocks, Beretta PX-4 and IWI Jericho etc...
so yeah...

I also remember suggesting this, giving new polymer based frames to Hi Powers in service to shed some weight

I know it was decided by mods to not let 3-d printed stuff posted here for known reasons but pardon me taking some ;chhut; this one time,

So, Since we manufacture those licensed copies of Browning Hi-Power here and also widely using it as standard issue pistol and so,
also since those new polymer frame guns like ARDE's Asmi machine pistol and so coming out with 3-d printed receiver and so,
i think it's time to at least upgrade those pistol with lighter polymer frames like this 3-d printed one here,

This effectively brings weight of the pistol down to about 30 to 35 percent, near to that of a Glock 19 while still being sturdier enough for a service weapon,
also we could also add a small rail section under frame for lasers, lights etc stuff,
all this requires is 10-min parts replacement from older frame to this newer one at armourer's bench...

So yeah, a cheaper and practical solution to upgrade service pistols here than bringing dem Masada and what not...perhaps in future production guns OFB successor could make it standard to have them Pistol Auto 9mm in polymer frame ?

but as Alby sir mentioned he found Glock to be ;flipping; more as it's lighter, and extra weight-mass of our Hi Power's metal frame kinda helps in keeping those muzzle climbs etc things under control, that way maybe yeah it's good but overall i'd prefer emphasis on switching to lighter weapon, some training on shooting range would help in adjusting to a lighter wepon and recoil characteristics it would show when fired etc...

 

[ManhattanProject]

The question is how effective? Compare this with the integrated rails innnew colt 1911s.. Don't think this could be put in any holsters... It defeats the whole purpose of pistols.. If this is this much bulky and couldnt fit into any holster to be used as a secondary fire arm and put in a concealed position its better to buy SMGs.
This is pure jugaad with not much real life positive outcome.

Hey i agree with all your points, but i just wanted to elaborate their design philosophy. What i think they modified the pistol is for the offensive handgun segment. We indians have never taken backup pistols seriously, we dont care about what ifs. You remember how many stories there were about jamming insas rifles and soldies having to hide, if only they had a backup gun?.Just look at seatbelts and helmets we dont wear them for safety, we wear them because we dont want fines.. They probably built the gun for a offensive special forces role.

 

[vampyrbladez]

And this is how we plan on modernising the existing pistol, courtesy of the erstwhile OFB
View attachment 153957

Reminds me of those toy pistols with yellow 🟡 BB ammunition that you could buy for Rs. 200-300.

 

[ALBY]

Most likely worn out weapon or as usual QA Issues,otherwise Browning Hi-Power is one of the most reliable no-nonsense pistol design out there, has gotten derivatives like Jericho, Cz-75 and what not,
Heck even original FN Herstal is bringing out newer derivatives with improvements

View attachment 153995
View attachment 153996
( note - although i am kind of unsure whether to call this new one a ;real; hi power, mainly because they have changed locking mechanism consisting barrel and slide - now it's more Glock-like than hi power style but maybe it's ok those design works mostly same way, tilting locking barrel, just differs in way how-where barrel locks with the slide, and of course are short recoil pattern designs...)

We, well we got License + ToT of canadian variant of Hi Power pistol from Inglis firearms and kept on manufacturing it in same older way since then, never bothered with improvising or even making newer better variants/derivatives out of that design, and mixed with desi made ammo - yeah it all shows...

but again, as i mentioned previously somewhere, armed forces themselves consider pistols as a ;lesser; weapn so there isn't really a need-motive etc to improvise at there...

I also remember suggesting this, giving new polymer based frames to Hi Powers in service to shed some weight

but as Alby sir mentioned he found Glock to be ;flipping; more as it's lighter, and extra weight-mass of our Hi Power's metal frame kinda helps in keeping those muzzle climbs etc things under control, that way maybe yeah it's good but overall i'd prefer emphasis on switching to lighter weapon, some training on shooting range would help in adjusting to a lighter wepon and recoil characteristics it would show when fired etc...

Thats my opinion only and couple of my batchmates too had similar opinion as i got more bulls eye with 9mm than Glock.
Me too thinks that more emphasis on more training with glock would have improved the results as its easier to hold the glocks with both hands compared with Brownings.
Btw forget shooting with one hand as shown in movies it will took hundreds of rounds of shooting to master to hit target with one hand shooting and sense of direction shooting.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Thats my opinion only and couple of my batchmates too had similar opinion as i got more bulls eye with 9mm than Glock.
Me too thinks that more emphasis on more training with glock would have improved the results as its easier to hold the glocks with both hands compared with Brownings.
Btw forget shooting with one hand as shown in movies it will took hundreds of rounds of shooting to master to hit target with one hand shooting and sense of direction shooting.

You were in the military or police?

 

[ALBY]

You were in the military or police?

Police

 

[BlackViking]

@ALBY @Johny_Baba and all others, I have question wrt FAB Vanguard AK Handguard Kit.

This is FAB Defense Vanguard AK/AKM Handguard.

Comes with integrated Heat shield
It doesn't require any screwing and just grips with the gas tube and barrel.


So my questions

You can see a tube kind of thing here, can you all tell me what is its purpose?

Similarly the the features marked in Green & yellow, please tell me what are they and their use? (Red one is the same tube like structure from the previous image)

We can see the M-LOK slots at upper guard is a complete cut (red), but the same is not true for the sides of lower guard (blue). Question here is making a complete cut will lead to lesser weight, material and cost saving as well as better ventilation, so why did FAB didn't do so?

Also if possible can someone share a picture of the lower guard without the heat shield thing, which is apparently removable.

 

[Johny_Baba]

@ALBY @Johny_Baba and all others, I have question wrt FAB Vanguard AK Handguard Kit.
View attachment 154036This is FAB Defense Vanguard AK/AKM Handguard.

View attachment 154037Comes with integrated Heat shield
It doesn't require any screwing and just grips with the gas tube and barrel.


So my questions
View attachment 154038
You can see a tube kind of thing here, can you all tell me what is its purpose?
View attachment 154039
Similarly the the features marked in Green & yellow, please tell me what are they and their use? (Red one is the same tube like structure from the previous image)
View attachment 154040
We can see the M-LOK slots at upper guard is a complete cut (red), but the same is not true for the sides of lower guard (blue). Question here is making a complete cut will lead to lesser weight, material and cost saving as well as better ventilation, so why did FAB didn't do so?

Also if possible can someone share a picture of the lower guard without the heat shield thing, which is apparently removable.

hhmm i don't know exactly but i could think of some things,
>tube thing in handguard,
seems for housing AK cleaning rod, what else...notice that hole where that long cleaning rod would go in the handguards
> things marked in green, yellow, red etc
seems this handguard is built using both metal and polymer parts ;sandwiched; together, also has gotten some air vents for cooling-heat sinking purposes
it seems inner heat sinking metal frame plus M-LoK rails outside are affixed with high strength polymer body
> upper M-Lok is cut but not lower one ?
my best assumption is again, they didn't want heat to sink directly outside lower handguards causing discomfirt to shooter, so they tried to vent it upwards (notice how those air channels goes upwards in lower handguards) and it mostly sinks via those open slots in upper handguard, maybe air seeps in through thin space between handguards and gunbarrel etc and as per saains heated air goes upwards, so yeah, a clever design i'd say, albeit i wonder what if someone tries to C-Clamp it and goes full auto...maybe he'd have some steamy air on his thumb lol

 

[Lonewarrior]

You've already got quite elaborated answer from @Johny_Baba , just adding few bits of mine.

You can see a tube kind of thing here, can you all tell me what is its purpose?

1. The cleaning rod in an AK is not straight, it's a very soft steel and it's stored slightly bent.

So as you move more to the trunnion, the more downward space you need for it.
2. Moreover, you also need something to keep it secured in place as most of its length keeps dangling without the original AK handguard.

Similarly the the features marked in Green & yellow, please tell me what are they and their use?

First, the yellow.
Across different handguard generation, FAB has used different kind of materials act insulation. Most of time it's a stamped sheet steel but in rare cases you'll also find a kind of polymer used as an insulation. So here also it's the insulation panel, though can't confirm whether it's sheet or polymer.

See this AR handguard from FAB, here the handguard is tan the insulation (most probably polymer) is black. So you'll get the good idea of what exactly you're looking at that in that AK handguard.

Now, the green
Those are simply interlocking tabs. They both lock the heat shield and also the two halves of the handguard.

Question here is making a complete cut will lead to lesser weight, material and cost saving as well as better ventilation, so why did FAB didn't do so?

Yes it'll, and they also make a complete cut. But they just add insulation panels that make it appear as a solid. Moreover as Baba already said, until there is no complete covering in the lower part of the handguard, the maximum heat will get transferred to your hands via those big 7x32mm M-Lok slots. Remember, hand is a better conductor of radiation heat compared to polymer.

Moreover, both polymer and sheet steel are extremely lightweight, so the increase in weight is almost non existent.

Also if possible can someone share a picture of the lower guard without the heat shield thing, which is apparently removable.

Yup, already done.

 

[Mangal]

In 1988-89 they tested steyr AUG. But it wasn't good enough for IA. A decade later they ended up with INSAS. Nothing is good enough.

Same story different era.

 

[ezsasa]

Use sig-716 thead for current ammo mismatch issue.

Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

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[BlackViking]

You've already got quite elaborated answer from @Johny_Baba , just adding few bits of mine.

I got curious with another thing,
if we remove the heat shield and make the lower guard out of an insulating polymer with air between barrel and guard, while keeping the lower M-LOK slots closed as it is now, will this solution have disadvantages?
Heat dissipation will continue through convection as baba told earlier.
The advantage will be less weight (miniscule ik but less weight is less weight) and saving money.

 

[Lonewarrior]

I got curious with another thing,
if we remove the heat shield and make the lower guard out of an insulating polymer with air between barrel and guard, while keeping the lower M-LOK slots closed as it is now, will this solution have disadvantages?
Heat dissipation will continue through convection as baba told earlier.
The advantage will be less weight (miniscule ik but less weight is less weight) and saving money.

Okay, so first the short answer.
No, there would be no disadvantage whatsoever.

Firstly, you need to understand why we need that many M-Lok slots in the handguard. The answer is, for no reason at all.

In practical use, even the most advanced special operator needs just few attachment.

1. A fore grip or grenade launcher at 6 o'clock. You need the whole length of the lower handguard for that, as everyone and every situation requires a different position of fire grip placement.

2. 3 o'clock for your laser-light combination. You'll hardly need two M-Lok slots near the muzzle for this.

3. Though you already have a light but in case you want a dedicated flashlight; then two more M-Lok slots on 9 o'clock. And again near the very end of the handguard.

Except this, you're not going to attach anything in real life scenario. So whenever you see companies advertising that they have this many M-Lok slots then they are either just giving gimmicks or in case of aluminium handguard using the slots as a weigh reducing method.

That's why you can have a polymer handguard with the least number of M-Lok slots and totally enclosed lower half and still it'll work fine.

Here is a pic of Springfield Armory's Saint Edge ATC Elite. This already does the exact thing you're referring to.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

IWI Arad in use with YAMAM force

 

[Spadex]

Don't we import ammo for tar and x95s ?

 

[FalconSlayers]

Don't we import ammo for tar and x95s ?

Sometimes I believe the biggest problem with INSAS was not just the quality of it’s production but also the pathetic quality of ammunition.

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

If every ammo is imported then what is Yantra actually doing. I don't know why GOI is sucking up to them. Either correct them which is never heard about in PSU's or let them die a natural death by make them to fight with various players but this is not happening since every time this happens OFB cries and papa MOD will again do usual randi rona.

 

[MisraZ]

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Don't we import ammo for tar and x95s ?

I think this luxury was given only to SFs and Army Ghatak units that used Tavors/X95s in small numbers. CAPFS may have had used to use OFB made M193 ammunition.

 

[ALBY]

I think this luxury was given only to SFs and Army Ghatak units that used Tavors/X95s in small numbers. CAPFS may have had used to use OFB made M193 ammunition.

Crpf units in ops areas dont use X-95. Don't know why the fuck they imported them. I know it was full corruption. My friend had once told me that jn NE they won't go out with X-95s because it itself would attract enemy to you. In naxal areas they use Aks due to the punching power.
Glocks use OFB 9mms but rarely jams or dont jam at all.