Small arms and Light Weapons

[vampyrbladez]

View attachment 129655

Apologies for posting this sad picture first thing in the morning.

They look like some OpFor extras on a Bollywood B movie from the 1990s.

Expect Sunny Deol to arrive soon.

 

[pipebomb]

That's not your regular police with pot belly.they are the most bad ass unit indian terror ops

Still a battle rifle ? I don't know weather it could be used as something like dmr/sniper. My main grouse was with the import rather than something indigenous. If we don't buy our own, its become a hard sell for Indian companies to secure foreign contracts.

And the second point about not arming state police to the same level as army or even CAPF is my personal opinion. Let me ask you this, if you are willing to make an exception to j&k police (even NE or maoist effected state) based on security situation and the threat they face then why not extend the same concern to the residents of those states in terms of civil arms permit since they are exposed to the same heightened risks and make it easier for them to defend themselves.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Still a battle rifle ? I don't know weather it could be used as something like dmr/sniper. My main grouse was with the import rather than something indigenous. If we don't buy our own, its become a hard sell for Indian companies to secure foreign contracts.

And the second point about not arming state police to the same level as army or even CAPF is my personal opinion. Let me ask you this, if you are willing to make an exception to j&k police (even NE or maoist effected state) based on security situation and the threat they face then why not extend the same concern to the residents of those states in terms of civil arms permit since they are exposed to the same heightened risks and make it easier for them to defend themselves.

The first point you mentioned is just whining.

- Indians gave zero f*cks about Tonbo. Did they stop or they tried to sell their product in other countries?
- Who cared about MKU in India. Did they stop or they sold their products to NATO countries?

As for the second; compare these factors of a civilian gun and a Mil/LE gun in India
- Chances of theft
- Probablity of use in murder/suicide
- Increase in threat to the owner

 

[Marliii]

Still a battle rifle ? I don't know weather it could be used as something like dmr/sniper. My main grouse was with the import rather than something indigenous. If we don't buy our own, its become a hard sell for Indian companies to secure foreign contracts.

And the second point about not arming state police to the same level as army or even CAPF is my personal opinion. Let me ask you this, if you are willing to make an exception to j&k police (even NE or maoist effected state) based on security situation and the threat they face then why not extend the same concern to the residents of those states in terms of civil arms permit since they are exposed to the same heightened risks and make it easier for them to defend themselves.

If they need a 7.62x51rifle its upto them it may be for DMR or it may be for battlerifle. is there any indigenous option.ASMi may be for 9mm .this is SOG who we are talking about arming not some local constables.they are an elite anti terror group that need to be armed heavily.most state police squats are armed heavily so for an area like JK SOG going with 303 doesn't not make sense.by your definition if we you are afraid of police getting armed you aint afraid of people in these places with questionable loyalties getting armed?

 

[pipebomb]

The first point you mentioned is just whining.

- Indians gave zero f*cks about Tonbo. Did they stop or they tried to sell their product in other countries?
- Who cared about MKU in India. Did they stop or they sold their products to NATO countries?

As for the second; compare these factors of a civilian gun and a Mil/LE gun in India
- Chances of theft
- Probablity of use in murder/suicide
- Increase in threat to the owner

Thanks for your response. I do consider myself guilty of whining for indigenization, i hope that's ok here. I sincerely hope those exceptions(tonbo & mku) you mentioned (who made without any institutional backing) becomes the norm. And hope its not a controversial opinion that govt contracts will be helpful in achieving this vison .

Your second point seems valid and to the point for both police & civilians, i agree. I only bought it up for wider pov to this conversation.

 

[Whitecollar]

Thanks for your response. I do consider myself guilty of whining for indigenization, i hope that's ok here. I sincerely hope those exceptions(tonbo & mku) you mentioned (who made without any institutional backing) becomes the norm. And hope its not a controversial opinion that govt contracts will be helpful in achieving this vison .

Your second point seems valid and to the point for both police & civilians, i agree. I only bought it up for wider pov to this conversation.

You're not wrong for thinking about indigestion dude. You just don't know who might be a foreign gun lobbyist here. They could've opted for TAR or JVPC. See that few others were able to defend why battle rifles were required for CI/CT ops (That too Sig made)?

 

[Twinblade]

There's a reason why they call such rifles as Battle Rifles.
Do you realize that any innocent person that gets even nicked by such horrendous bullets is gonna suffer for the rest of his/her life?? If someone's hit, they're gone. If hit anywhere else like arm or leg, it will literally ampute that part, crush the nearby bones and make it almost impossible to sew back even for the best of Military surgeons. If they don't die, they're disabled for the rest of ther life.
Well even 7.62x39 fired from 50mtr is almost a death warrant but atleast there's a chance of survival for that innocent.

I had the fortune of sitting down with a group of RR veterans (3-5 posting each in the valley in 90s and early 2000s) regarding experience with various small arms.

One of them recounted an encounter where a tango got shot 15-16 times all over the body with 5.56 INSAS ammunition and was conscious for 15-20 minutes for brief interrogation before he bled out to death.

Nearly all former soldiers agreed that the wounds from 5.56 were too small as the bullet mostly exited without causing too much damage.

Everyone universally loved the Bren. AKs were well appreciated too. No one hated the Insas but it didn't get much love either.

In their opinion, 7.62 Nato was the ideal one shot one kill round with enough power to punch through light cover. It also rewarded them for being patient for the opportunity to shoot rather spray and pray.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Still a battle rifle ? I don't know weather it could be used as something like dmr/sniper. My main grouse was with the import rather than something indigenous. If we don't buy our own, its become a hard sell for Indian companies to secure foreign contracts.

And the second point about not arming state police to the same level as army or even CAPF is my personal opinion. Let me ask you this, if you are willing to make an exception to j&k police (even NE or maoist effected state) based on security situation and the threat they face then why not extend the same concern to the residents of those states in terms of civil arms permit since they are exposed to the same heightened risks and make it easier for them to defend themselves.

Well what do domestic companies offer? Well I do feel that J&K Police should get IWI Arad or IWI Uzi or IWI Galil coz they are made in India, SSS Defence is just like Theranos, a scam. They have nothing to offer to JK Police.

 

[Lonewarrior]

So now foreign gun lobbyists will roam here on DFI to push there products! Interesting.

I thought they usually bribe Defence Acquisition Council's people, not some random guy who's profile pic is Beluga.

 

[Love Charger]

So now foreign gun lobbyists will roam here on DFI to push there products! Interesting.

I thought they usually bribe Defence Acquisition Council's people, not some random guy who's profile pic is Beluga.

It's Ollie

 

[Marliii]

I received my first sum from sig dalal.my next target is carbine deal

 

[Love Charger]

I received my first sum from sig dalal.my next target is carbine dealView attachment 129787

Good for you , I like that cats doing progress

 

[Twinblade]

Well what do domestic companies offer? Well I do feel that J&K Police should get IWI Arad or IWI Uzi or IWI Galil coz they are made in India, SSS Defence is just like Theranos, a scam. They have nothing to offer to JK Police.

I wouldn't be as harsh to call them a scam. In mid 2000s some major Indian companies acquired licence to manufacture small arms with big names such as l&t.

All of them let go of the licenses because of beureaucratic hassles of making and proofing small arms.

This is a low profit, high entry price segment with no guarantee of orders and an ab initio design takes half a decade to mature. The only client they have is the government, which is a fickle and corrupt buyer.

At least SSS defence has shown some initiative in designs. As of now they are the only Indian firm to launch their own designs. It took them a massive effort just to build their own test range. Who will sink dozens of crores in such a business with zero assurance of orders?

Look at IA. They have changed their requirements 4 times in a decade from 5.56x45 to 5.56x45+7.62x39 multi cal to back to 5.56x45 to 7.62x51 & 5.56x45 to now three tiers in 7.62x51, 7.62x39 and 5.56x45.

SSS defence at least has a design in P72 in all three calibre, even if it is vapourware at this point. They have sunk capital in ammunition manufacturing as well.

No one, not PLR, not Tata, not L&T, not Kalyani have touched the design aspects with a 10 feet pole. All these companies would spend more on air-conditioning for their offices than the entire turnover of SSS defence several times over.

 

[Lonewarrior]

I received my first sum from sig dalal.my next target is carbine dealView attachment 129787

Ever wondered why this guy is so excited about carbines!?

Guess who's selling us carbines!

 

[Love Charger]

Ever wondered why this guy is so excited about carbines!?

Guess who's selling us carbines!
View attachment 129807

Hecker

 

[Lonewarrior]

Hecker

That's just one of many aliases used by that one particular Caracal.

 

[Whitecollar]

I had the fortune of sitting down with a group of RR veterans (3-5 posting each in the valley in 90s and early 2000s) regarding experience with various small arms.

One of them recounted an encounter where a tango got shot 15-16 times all over the body with 5.56 INSAS ammunition and was conscious for 15-20 minutes for brief interrogation before he bled out to death.

Nearly all former soldiers agreed that the wounds from 5.56 were too small as the bullet mostly exited without causing too much damage.

Everyone universally loved the Bren. AKs were well appreciated too. No one hated the Insas but it didn't get much love either.

In their opinion, 7.62 Nato was the ideal one shot one kill round with enough power to punch through light cover. It also rewarded them for being patient for the opportunity to shoot rather spray and pray.

RRs still use AKs and trust them with their lives. 6+ lakh AK 203 were hence ordered looking to learnings of current warlike scenario which is Kashmir front(and also ammo commonality with Enemy). Though I never said Police could still opt for INSAS MK1C or Excalibur MK1, they could've gone for TAR or atleast SSS P72. You never saw RR using SLRs in bulk did you? And SLRs are still used by some of the reserved forces to protect civilian places.

So where does this put us??

Modi parades and hails about Aatmanirbhar Bharat and IA goes for a Shopping spree. End up buying watered down AK 103 with added Pic rails. J&K Police goes for Sig 716 and to my surprise 9mm MPX when we already have 556 AP JVPC. So where's the leadership here? You have people under you actively defying what you took up as a daunting task and moreover, order phoren maal despite MoD coming out with dozen of negative import list.

We even have people supporting such move here and want more phoren maal to make cops appear tacticool. Even so never coming up with proper justification of why local AKs fail to satisfy needs of a unit that in all ways and manners inferior to RR(comparison only for action seen and neutralizations made)


What happened to that kid with Astr rifle project? Atleast he tried. Atleast SSS tried. You want people to pour in money on R&D, detail design, satisfy GSQR just to see it changing like weather. I'm a non technical idiot ya'll but with a dream of seeing IA proudly holding guns that are Made in India, Made by India.

 

[SGOperative]

RRs still use AKs and trust them with their lives. 6+ lakh AK 203 were hence ordered looking to learnings of current warlike scenario which is Kashmir front(and also ammo commonality with Enemy). Though I never said Police could still opt for INSAS MK1C or Excalibur MK1, they could've gone for TAR or atleast SSS P72. You never saw RR using SLRs in bulk did you? And SLRs are still used by some of the reserved forces to protect civilian places.

So where does this put us??

Modi parades and hails about Aatmanirbhar Bharat and IA goes for a Shopping spree. End up buying watered down AK 103 with added Pic rails. J&K Police goes for Sig 716 and to my surprise 9mm MPX when we already have 556 AP JVPC. So where's the leadership here? You have people under you actively defying what you took up as a daunting task and moreover, order phoren maal despite MoD coming out with dozen of negative import list.

We even have people supporting such move here and want more phoren maal to make cops appear tacticool. Even so never coming up with proper justification of why local AKs fail to satisfy needs of a unit that in all ways and manners inferior to RR(comparison only for action seen and neutralizations made)


What happened to that kid with Astr rifle project? Atleast he tried. Atleast SSS tried. You want people to pour in money on R&D, detail design, satisfy GSQR just to see it changing like weather. I'm a non technical idiot ya'll but with a dream of seeing IA proudly holding guns that are Made in India, Made by India.

Theres not a single video of SSS gun shooting. They needed a 9mm gun they could have waited for ASMI or probably order it in future. 716i makes perfect sense to me and i dont see a indian option which could be used.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Modi parades and hails about Aatmanirbhar Bharat and IA goes for a Shopping spree. End up buying watered down AK 103 with added Pic rails

Sorry to inform you, watered dow 103 was speculation by DFI members before rifle was finalised. Newer rifle is far ahead of AK 103, essentially the best rifle money can buy in 762x39 if they included a better stock, which can be changed in future btw. Only drawback is fixed stock.

Issue with AK is caliber, but no current caliber would fit requirements. Instead of trying to experiment, IA went with next best.

 

[Whitecollar]

Sorry to inform you, watered dow 103 was speculation by DFI members before rifle was finalised. Newer rifle is far ahead of AK 103, essentially the best rifle money can buy in 762x39.

Please elaborate and share your intellectual knowledge Good Sir