Small arms and Light Weapons

[Vayuputra]

It passed the trials of CAPFs and is used by CRPF and State police in Counter Insurgency roles so i dont think the gun was bad.

Capfs have no say in this regard, they take whatever HM shoves them in to their throat.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

I'm sure OFB could've made a 5.56 Krink with pic rails rather than hand breaking 7.62 TriCa...

You know what, the best thing is that they don't have to do much, just copy form current designs available. Still, don't underestimate OFB, they will still under deliver with poor quality. Even TAR rifle is arsenal ak copied at best, Trichy aksu carbine also seems to be arsenal copy. These guys can only ToT and produce with inflated prices. US small scale gun manufacturers are better than OFB

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Its similar to glock conversion kit nothing new

Redirect Notice

So what your point? It’s made in India, do you know anyone else who makes them in India? Especially if JVPC is not being considered and a 9mm SMG is required this perfect, provided that it’s reliable and has good 9mm ammo to go with it.

 

[Whitecollar]

Our army deserves a much better rifle than substandard one from ofb. Ak 203 has good metallurgy and can withstand continous fire of 5-6 mags at one go.

This...
I wrote about this before here. It seems OFB never really took any interest to test TAR and publicize the outcome. So the best we now as of now is: TAR should have same barrel metallurgy as INSAS 1B1 and Excalibur.
Which means it can also fire 5-6 mags.

Problem?

Accuracy wrt heat and stress, firing rate consistancy, proper chambering of bullets, heat withstanding capacity of front furniture, etc. These all are needed in graphical format to know why TAR is inferior and to what extent. Unfortunately, no such data exists...

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Well for now ak230mki goes brrrrrrrrrrrr.......
Deal has already been signed. Next would be interesting to know about the accessories these would be supplied with to soldiers, if any at all.
Another is aside from the current 1.4 lakh sig716i ordered, how are the rest 2.5 to 3 lakh 7.62 battle rifles are planned?? Sig716i manufactured in india is the logical step but rfi/rfp and all that sure has a way of changing what can be considered logical, we very well might see another 7.62 nato platform.
Where are some 3.5 lakhs cqb guns, no latest rfi/rfp, same for 7.62 nato guns, lost in wormhole?

And here is a prediction that all this will be thrown out of window with repeated failed attempts to get other rifles and we may see ak203 being the standard issue across all branches, now wouldn't that be the best mind f*ck.

 

[Vayuputra]

So what your point? It’s made in India, do you know anyone else who makes them in India? Especially if JVPC is not being considered and a 9mm SMG is required this perfect, provided that it’s reliable and has good 9mm ammo to go with it.

Why invest when we can buy them of the shelves at throwaway price from us market, we must invest in developing new calibre

 

[SGOperative]

Why invest when we can buy them of the shelves at throwaway price from us market, we must invest in developing new calibre

ARDE is working on that new caliber and why import when you have a alternative?

 

[Whitecollar]

ARDE is working on that new caliber and why import when you have a alternative?

Abba(IA) nahi maanenge

 

[SGOperative]

Well for now ak230mki goes brrrrrrrrrrrr.......
Deal has already been signed. Next would be interesting to know about the accessories these would be supplied with to soldiers, if any at all.
Another is aside from the current 1.4 lakh sig716i ordered, how are the rest 2.5 to 3 lakh 7.62 battle rifles are planned?? Sig716i manufactured in india is the logical step but rfi/rfp and all that sure has a way of changing what can be considered logical, we very well might see another 7.62 nato platform.
Where are some 3.5 lakhs cqb guns, no latest rfi/rfp, same for 7.62 nato guns, lost in wormhole?

And here is a prediction that all this will be thrown out of window with repeated failed attempts to get other rifles and we may see ak203 being the standard issue across all branches, now wouldn't that be the best mind f*ck.

When did we plan another lot of Sigs except the 72000 for those on LAC? Also the AK203 will be the standard issue for everyone.

 

[SGOperative]

Abba(IA) nahi maanenge

Thats bullet not a gun platform buddy. They were working on some intermediate cartridge and some Green Bullet. Abba(IA) ki baat Dada(MOD/GOI) nahi manenge

 

[Whitecollar]

When did we plan another lot of Sigs except the 72000 for those on LAC? Also the AK203 will be the standard issue for everyone.

It's the best choice(7.62x39) as std for 20 more years. Only possibility of war will be with Pakistan where ammo for both rifles will be common with Porks.
We will never have a war with China...
Pak Army will never be able to upgrade due to them begging for global alms(not arms).

 

[SGOperative]

It's the best choice(7.62x39) as std for 20 more years. Only possibility of war will be with Pakistan where ammo for both rifles will be common with Porks.
We will never have a war with China...
Pak Army will never be able to upgrade due to them begging for global alms(not arms).

ik that but he said we are buying more Sigs

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Why invest when we can buy them of the shelves at throwaway price from us market, we must invest in developing new calibre

This is one of the most backward and illogical takes I’ve seen in a long time. Off the shelf purchases are only viable for really small quantities for special units etc.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

When did we plan another lot of Sigs except the 72000 for those on LAC? Also the AK203 will be the standard issue for everyone.

There was news of another repeat order of 72k guns, present in the emergency procurement clause.
So this is the types of guns planned. Initially majority were to be armed with 7.62 nato rifles but they than changed part of it as 7.62 nato to frontline troops namely infantry and aks for others. There logic that 7.62 nato rifle will be expensive and hence cheaper platforms for units which might not see much combat at all.
So here are the rifles planned in IA-
Around 4.5 to 5 lakhs of 7.62 nato rifles
Around 3.5 to 3.8 lakhs of 5.56 cqb rifles
Around 6.5 to 7 lakhs of ak 203

Of these we acquired 72k sigs in emergency mode and there seemed to be another repeat order for the same. This doesn't means the rest of requirement had vaporised. Rest of requirement is to be met by make India programme.

Well standard issue will be akin to what Is M4 in US army and what is ak74m is in Russian army.
What we have is just a zoo of rifles, there is no standard issue, rather we have role based rifle distribution.

 

[SGOperative]

There was news of another repeat order of 72k guns, present in the emergency procurement clause.
So this is the types of guns planned. Initially majority were to be armed with 7.62 nato rifles but they than changed part of it as 7.62 nato to frontline troops namely infantry and aks for others. There logic that 7.62 nato rifle will be expensive and hence cheaper platforms for units which might not see much combat at all.
So here are the rifles planned in IA-
Around 4.5 to 5 lakhs of 7.62 nato rifles
Around 3.5 to 3.8 lakhs of 5.56 cqb rifles
Around 6.5 to 7 lakhs of ak 203

Of these we acquired 72k sigs in emergency mode and there seemed to be another repeat order for the same. This doesn't means the rest of requirement had vaporised. Rest of requirement is to be met by make India programme.

Well standard issue will be akin to what Is M4 in US army and what is ak74m is in Russian army.
What we have is just a zoo of rifles, there is no standard issue, rather we have role based rifle distribution.

Let me simplify You got Battle Rifles for Front line units at the LOC and LAC (Sig716)
The Regular Infantry guy gets the AK203
The Carbines distributed and to be used according to the need.
Am i right?

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Let me simplify You got Battle Rifles for Front line units at the LOC and LAC (Sig716)
The Regular Infantry guy gets the AK203
The Carbines distributed and to be used according to the need.
Am i right?

Nah, whole of infantry(as in proper infantry battalions/regiments)is supposed to get 7.62 nato rifles but only a part is met through emergency route, just like other emergency routes we don't get all the amount we need, rest to be met through make programme.
Non infantry gets Ak203, maybe RR too,
CQB as per need as you said, maybe to tank crews and heli pilots etc.too.

This is the current plan. You know given the state of procurement, Army has decided to exploit the loophole known as emergency procurement to get some things going which may very well might take 7 to 8 years to conclude.

And if what you say is correct, highly unlikely though, that 72k sigs for frontline troops and still not providing scopes and foregrips to measly 72k guns compared to size of army is downright pathetic.
Changing from 5.56 to 7.62ak as standard issue, I don't think our officers have gone mad at this level as of now.

 

[SGOperative]

Nah, whole of infantry(as in proper infantry battalions/regiments)is supposed to get 7.62 nato rifles but only a part is met through emergency route, just like other emergency routes we don't get all the amount we need, rest to be met through make programme.
Non infantry gets Ak203, maybe RR too,
CQB as per need as you said, maybe to tank crews and heli pilots etc.too.

This is the current plan. You know given the state of procurement, Army has decided to exploit the loophole known as emergency procurement to get some things going which may very well might take 7 to 8 years to conclude.

I doubt that AFAIK the AK203 is your standard issue which everyone gets and is replacing your INSAS while the Sigs will go to LOC and LAC and 2 Battalions in every regiment will have them because of the great response from the troops.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

I doubt that AFAIK the AK203 is your standard issue which everyone gets and is replacing your INSAS while the Sigs will go to LOC and LAC and 2 Battalions in every regiment will have them because of the great response from the troops.

Yeah, they were distributed 2 battalions every regiment so the guys can get a feel of the rifle and most of them can be trained for the sig platform. You may disagree but I am super sure about what is planned. You may consult with other senior informative people on forum.

And if what you say is correct, highly unlikely though, that 72k sigs for frontline troops and still not providing scopes and foregrips to measly 72k guns compared to size of army is downright pathetic.
Changing from 5.56 to 7.62ak as standard issue, I don't think our officers have gone mad at this level as of now, this just doesn't makes sense.
Ak 203 is kinda of filler rifle in IA relegated to non infantry.
According to your info-
72k sigs for frontline
Aks for others
CQB as when needed, they will number half of ak203 ordered, so I think it already has been assigned where it need to be, which we don't know as source is scarce.

Your number data just doesn't make sense, whereas my number data makes sense, considering 1.3 million force, even if a little. You can agree to disagree, no harm intended, just in search of accurate force composition.

 

[FalconSlayers]

An AK in 5.56 would’ve had been logical

 

[SGOperative]

An AK in 5.56 would’ve had been logical

The guys there are not plain stupid bruh they must have had the reason for it so they chose the caliber. Most probably the experience from COIN ops and maybe something from Kargil.
Edit: This is what Avinash sir said before
"Believe you me any weapon on the AK platform is fantastic, we actually don't need THE BEST RIFLES, because they cost almost twice. 7.62x39 is a very effective caliber. AK 103 misses out on modularity which probably the 203s shall make up to"