Small arms and Light Weapons

[Kuldeepm952]

What happened to Excalibur after getting into final trial of INSAS replacement tender?
If Excalibur was rejected as it didn't meet Army standards, then who won the tender??
Were Govt babus sleeping or all of a sudden it dawned upon IA Gernails that 7.62 NATO would be the way forward??

OFB is equally to be blamed for not aspiring higher and trying to compete in QA/QC/Modern ergonomics dept. Taali kavi ek haat se nhi bajti bro

It's very well clear army wants phoren designed rifles and will go to great lengths to deny indigenous rifles, though they don't want ofb made Excalibur but will take ofb made ak 103 happily. I am still waiting for the day when even one of the new weapons namely arde jvpc, lmg and cqb weapos get atleast a token order. Why does even ARDE wasting time on developing them, it would be better for them to make other class of weapons like new gen turrets/cannons above 30mm for armoured vehicles and smart ammunitions for cannons, ubgl, mgl, arty and AD guns.
Right now it's either no way or the phoren way. Ak deal is clearly expensive considering 1100$ price tag per rifle.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Sig 716i is supposed to go to infantry battalions, ak 203 to non infantry like arty and tank crews, then what cqb carbines are for??

 

[Marliii]

Sig 716i is supposed to go to infantry battalions, ak 203 to non infantry like arty and tank crews, then what cqb carbines are for??

You ain't optimally gonna do CQB with a battlerifle or 16 inch 7.62 weapon

 

[SGOperative]

Sig 716i is supposed to go to infantry battalions, ak 203 to non infantry like arty and tank crews, then what cqb carbines are for??

I dont think so, dint they decide for Sigs for the front line units on LOC and LAC and 2 Battalions in every regiment and every one else getting the AK203.

 

[SGOperative]

It's very well clear army wants phoren designed rifles and will go to great lengths to deny indigenous rifles, though they don't want ofb made Excalibur but will take ofb made ak 103 happily. I am still waiting for the day when even one of the new weapons namely arde jvpc, lmg and cqb weapos get atleast a token order. Why does even ARDE wasting time on developing them, it would be better for them to make other class of weapons like new gen turrets/cannons above 30mm for armoured vehicles and smart ammunitions for cannons, ubgl, mgl, arty and AD guns.
Right now it's either no way or the phoren way. Ak deal is clearly expensive considering 1100$ price tag per rifle.

Army aint no saint but OFB is not known for its quality i will give the army pass here. Better than getting your gun jammed in firefight or the mags breaking due to cold.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Sig 716i is supposed to go to infantry battalions, ak 203 to non infantry like arty and tank crews, then what cqb carbines are for??

Unfortunately, there is no clarity from Army on this issue.
This is the old IA infantry section (from 1965):

Now if we consider that this section (10 men) composition remains constant. Then SLRs which was replaced by Insas (in 90s) should be replaced by Sig-716s. Around 7 per section. This translates to 189 per batallion.

The 2IC machine gunner should have his Bren LMG replaced by Negev. The 2 sterlings should be replaced by either 5.56*45 mm carbine (tender issued) or AK-203 (license production to begin shortly).

 

[SGOperative]

Unfortunately, there is no clarity from Army on this issue.
This is the old IA infantry section (from 1965):

Now if we consider that this section (10 men) composition remains constant. Then SLRs which was replaced by Insas (in 90s) should be replaced by Sig-716s. Around 7 per section. This translates to 189 per batallion.

The 2IC machine gunner should have his Bren LMG replaced by Negev. The 2 sterlings should be replaced by either 5.56*45 mm carbine (tender issued) or AK-203 (license production to begin shortly).

Some one made a graphic IIRC

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Unfortunately, there is no clarity from Army on this issue.
This is the old IA infantry section (from 1965):

Now if we consider that this section (10 men) composition remains constant. Then SLRs which was replaced by Insas (in 90s) should be replaced by Sig-716s. Around 7 per section. This translates to 189 per batallion.

The 2IC machine gunner should have his Bren LMG replaced by Negev. The 2 sterlings should be replaced by either 5.56*45 mm carbine (tender issued) or AK-203 (license production to begin shortly).

Well @Okabe Rintarou did said sometime in past that army has moved to 2 machine gunners per section much like western forces though there is no clear picture about current composition. Is there any marksman in current section system, I think we don't have it here, maybe just some dragunov rifles here and there. It is even hard to estimate the composition as the pics and source available are pretty scarce and often incorrect. Currently we are pretty much militia type as of now with no standardization of any kind of system whether guns or clothing. It would be great if someone in IA does manage to make changes here.

 

[SGOperative]

Well @Okabe Rintarou did said sometime in past that army has moved to 2 machine gunners per section much like western forces though there is no clear picture about current composition. Is there any marksman in current section system, I think we don't have it here, maybe just some dragunov rifles here and there. It is even hard to estimate the composition as the pics and source available are pretty scarce and often incorrect. Currently we are pretty much militia type as of now with no standardization of any kind of system whether guns or clothing. It would be great if someone in IA does manage to make changes here.

I think that comes from Kashmir the idea of them being militia??? If yes then you need to also understand that all the forces there are QRT focused rather than uniformity aswell RR is composed of non combat arms too. Impossible to make any assumption based on the images coming from Kashmir.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Army though do have very novel idea to to say the least that 7.62 nato rifles are needed to engage at long ranges upto 500m and beyond but forget that a normal human has difficulty hitting targets even at 300m with iron sights, so scopes are indeed indispensable to these rifles, where are they? I guess we need to wait another decade or two when chinese have moved to something like fire control scopes kinda system for their rifles. I guess people who make these weapon employment doctrines still live in 80s or 90s. Well infantry for now seems to be the least important for them, shiny weapons like apache do seem to have their effect on our IA generals.

 

[SGOperative]

Army though do have very novel idea to to say the least that 7.62 nato rifles are needed to engage at long ranges upto 500m and beyond but forget that a normal human has difficulty hitting targets even at 300m with iron sights, so scopes are indeed indispensable to these rifles, where are they? I guess we need to wait another decade or two when chinese have moved to something like fire control scopes kinda system for their rifles. I guess people who make these weapon employment doctrines still live in 80s or 90s. Well infantry for now seems to be the least important for them, shiny weapons like apache do seem to have their effect on our IA generals.

The Sights dont come cheap buddy. The first priority would be to get the guns and sights can follow till then front line units will have to mange with the Existing sights which they used on other weapons.

 

[Vayuputra]

Ya'll Nibbiars

Our army deserves a much better rifle than substandard one from ofb. Ak 203 has good metallurgy and can withstand continous fire of 5-6 mags at one go.

 

[SGOperative]

Our army deserves a much better rifle than substandard one from ofb. Ak 203 has good metallurgy and can withstand continous fire of 5-6 mags at one go.

It passed the trials of CAPFs and is used by CRPF and State police in Counter Insurgency roles so i dont think the gun was bad.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

I think that comes from Kashmir the idea of them being militia??? If yes then you need to also understand that all the forces there are QRT focused rather than uniformity aswell RR is composed of non combat arms too. Impossible to make any assumption based on the images coming from Kashmir.

Well yes, but if you look at some of the images from major gaurav Arya show when he visits various infantry battalions, you will see that the equipment of those guys are even worse, just a rifle and your strap load carrier with just mags, if you know what I am saying about. Only just good enough equipment is seen in exercises and I am damn sure a large chunk of forces are milita level to say the least.

 

[SGOperative]

Well yes, but if you look at some of the images from major gaurav Arya show when he visits various infantry battalions, you will see that the equipment of those guys are even worse, just a rifle and your strap load carrier with just mags, if you know what I am saying about. Only just good enough equipment is seen in exercises and I am damn sure a large chunk of forces are milita level to say the least.

Link them
Edit: If you are talking about the RR battalions the same argument stands they aint gonna make everything look good on camera for one show. They dont know when they might get the call and they will have to roll.

 

[Vayuputra]

@FalconSlayers why sad?

ASMI firing.

Its similar to glock conversion kit nothing new

Redirect Notice

 

[Kuldeepm952]

The Sights dont come cheap buddy. The first priority would be to get the guns and sights can follow till then front line units will have to mange with the Existing sights which they used on other weapons.

Sir, there isn't any difference in the previous Insas/ak and sig716i, is it, Insas and ak would do just fine for 300m engagements, right?? Just the calibre difference, better provide complete solution, won't help when chinese will come knocking with there scope mounted rifles and we will still be using iron sights.
Why buy Ferrari when you can't maintain it??

 

[SGOperative]

Sir, there isn't any difference in the previous Insas/ak and sig716i, is it?? Just the calibre difference, better provide complete solution, won't help when chinese will come knocking with there scope mounted rifles and we will still be using iron sights.
Why buy Ferrari when you can't maintain it??

Better ask those in the leadership before why they dint do this before, you cant expect everything to be done in an instant, TBH i would love the Sigs rocking those Tonbo daytime sights but for now short on cash can only go in phased manner.

 

[Whitecollar]

I'm sure OFB could've made a 5.56 Krink with pic rails rather than hand breaking 7.62 TriCa...

 

[SGOperative]

I'm sure OFB could've made a 5.56 Krink with pic rails rather than hand breaking 7.62 TriCa...

Why they dint try to copy the Vz the Para SF guys used to love that gun