Small arms and Light Weapons

[Johny_Baba]

And after a mere four years we went back to that same NATO calibre. But sadly in the form of FAL.

Independent India's arms procurement has always been a soap opera.

I think decision to get FAL was made around same time Menon rejected proposal for AR rifles (so getting firearm of one NATO country is baaaaad but other's is fine ? that too an 'imperial' one instead of democratic one ? geopolitikz of the era was surely a thing on its own smh), but then Belgians tried to fuck around with us, asking that we hire their workforce here and of course royalties etc, dissing on then RFI and what not,
then RFI just middle-fingered them by ;reverse engineering; L1A1 SLR i.e. british variant of FAL here and so,
pissed off with all these, FN Herstal of Belgium filed a case in some international court whatever but later our beena bhateeje waale chacha came to rescue and bought some FALs from them to put a cold water on this hot matter etc etc

But yeah a large scale production and adoption in armed forces could only happen after debacle of '62 Sino-Indian war, that too after some years since they had to literally bring out 7.62 NATO chambered SMLE rifles in name of "Ishapore 2A" (2A1 etc) till i believe 1968 at least

 

[Tshering22]

It would be great if you just clear this one doubt of mine

How the f is that so called ultra reliability of your sikrit teknulugy best ruski rifel is going to help when one has to engage a target beyond 500 meters?

Bhai sahab, calm down. The 500 meter target was always there before India considered getting SIGs.

The ruski rifel you are talking about is not my words but the word of soldiers using them. I think that counts more than any tendering process or political decision-making. I am not in favour of any rifle model as long as:

1) They get the job done; fighting in the Himalayas is not the same as a shooting range in the middle of Texas; the conditions are wildly unreliable, unfamiliar and difficult. The last thing you would want is a fancy-looking matte-black rifle that gets jammed due to moisture, ice, rubble, etc. during a firefight. AKs just happen to be the go-to weapons for CT units in Kashmir - period.

2) There is some form of logistical streamlining of the assault rifles that our forces use. Even within the same unit, everyone has a different make of rifle - it is ridiculous and a downright nightmare for the inventory maintenance! Can you imagine your entire unit using 5 different types of assault rifles, all different calibres and makes? AKs have been the most prevalent series of weapons that we use and streamlining the logistics using them would be better.

3) SIG-716 is ready to make it in India. I agree that the tender is to just import for now, but do you really think MoD wouldn't have asked for the scope of making it locally? Personally, I love the AR type assault rifles as they look really stylish. But whether they are suitable for our conditions or not politically, logistically, financially and tactically, is my concern.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Bhai sahab, calm down. The 500 meter target was always there before India considered getting SIGs.

The ruski rifel you are talking about is not my words but the word of soldiers using them. I think that counts more than any tendering process or political decision-making. I am not in favour of any rifle model as long as:

1) They get the job done; fighting in the Himalayas is not the same as a shooting range in the middle of Texas; the conditions are wildly unreliable, unfamiliar and difficult. The last thing you would want is a fancy-looking matte-black rifle that gets jammed due to moisture, ice, rubble, etc. during a firefight. AKs just happen to be the go-to weapons for CT units in Kashmir - period.

2) There is some form of logistical streamlining of the assault rifles that our forces use. Even within the same unit, everyone has a different make of rifle - it is ridiculous and a downright nightmare for the inventory maintenance! Can you imagine your entire unit using 5 different types of assault rifles, all different calibres and makes? AKs have been the most prevalent series of weapons that we use and streamlining the logistics using them would be better.

3) SIG-716 is ready to make it in India. I agree that the tender is to just import for now, but do you really think MoD wouldn't have asked for the scope of making it locally? Personally, I love the AR type assault rifles as they look really stylish. But whether they are suitable for our conditions or not politically, logistically, financially and tactically, is my concern.

1. An AR will never jam if it's maintained properly. Let alone, during a firefight.
And even the best AK will jam if not maintained.

You yourself answered your questions. "AKs are go-to weapon in CT Ops", because that's the only area where the shine. Put it in andy other scenario and it'll suck.

2. My entire unit using 5 different types of assault rifle and all different calibres!?
No, I can't imagine. Maybe coz it never happened.

3. Politically, logistically, financially, tactically...those are bit too many words.

The biggest logistical issue a countries faces while adopting a new small arms is setting up tooling for its ammunition.
We are manufacturing 7.62NATO since eternity.



You are in the Himalayas, the same wildly unreliable, unfamiliar and difficult Himalayas. And you're fighting ridgeline to ridgeline.
What will be your calibre of choice and weapon too!?

 

[Vayuputra]

1. An AR will never jam if it's maintained properly. Let alone, during a firefight.
And even the best AK will jam if not maintained.

You yourself answered your questions. "AKs are go-to weapon in CT Ops", because that's the only area where the shine. Put it in andy other scenario and it'll suck.

2. My entire unit using 5 different types of assault rifle and all different calibres!?
No, I can't imagine. Maybe coz it never happened.

3. Politically, logistically, financially, tactically...those are bit too many words.

The biggest logistical issue a countries faces while adopting a new small arms is setting up tooling for its ammunition.
We are manufacturing 7.62NATO since eternity.



You are in the Himalayas, the same wildly unreliable, unfamiliar and difficult Himalayas. And you're fighting ridgeline to ridgeline.
What will be your calibre of choice and weapon too!?

Someone echoing my thoughts , even for ci.ct operations, carbine version of ar styled rifle would be better choice over ak rifle,. Grouping of ak rifle is not that much impressive when compared to ar styled rifle when fired 3 rounds innquick succession, but atlast it is the man behind the gun who pulls the trigger that matters, still I pray that ak 203 contracts gets cancelled and we go for more sig 716 for our troops.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Someone echoing my thoughts , even for ci.ct operations, carbine version of ar styled rifle would be better choice over ak rifle,. Grouping of ak rifle is not that much impressive when compared to ar styled rifle when fired 3 rounds innquick succession, but atlast it is the man behind the gun who pulls the trigger that matters, still I pray that ak 203 contracts gets cancelled and we go for more sig 716 for our troops.

And even in CI/CT Ops, the only reason an AK holds any ground is just because of its calibre.

Simply re-chamber any AR in .300 Blackout; which should be a two minute process and you have no need of an AK in any theatre.

 

[Vayuputra]

And even in CI/CT Ops, the only reason an AK holds any ground is just because of its calibre.

Simply re-chamber any AR in .300 Blackout; which should be a two minute process and you have no need of an AK in any theatre.

5.56x45 round is also lethal round, best for closed quarters combat and ci,ct operations as well Once hit you won't find him standing again. 2016 surgical strikes on pakistan and in Myanmar, were carried out by paras armed with tavor chambered in5.56x45. we ate giving enough business to ruskies , cancelling ak 203 contracts won't put dent in our relations.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Carbine with 2 triggers?

just in case you haven't seen it

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

just in case you haven't seen it
View attachment 113525

Damn

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

just in case you haven't seen it
View attachment 113525

How does this work with 2 triggers?

 

[Aditya Ballal]

 

[Aditya Ballal]

 

[FalconSlayers]

 

[Tactical Doge]

 

[Aditya Ballal]

View attachment 113618

Only sad thing about this pic is the optic mounted on it. Vector Optics is a Chinese company, the same one who’s scope OFB supplies with their 7.62x51 sniper rifle.

 

[Johny_Baba]

How does this work with 2 triggers?

Simple,

"actual" trigger is rear one only with trigger group parts at its designated position in AK derivative rifle,

front one is just a 'lever', has mechanical linkage with rear actual one, very much similar to what is done in Bullpup firearms,

so even if you pull front one it just actuates actual trigger group and weapon fires etc,

for quick understanding, just refer to this pic (here other working parts of trigger group are not shown but mechanical linkage between actual rear trigger and front extra one is shown)

Needless to say such arrangement often gives awkward trigger pull in front trigger, kind of springy one...

 

[MisraZ]

View attachment 113618

Does additional of rails block the iron sights? No other reason to add the foldable front and rear sights. They can improve further by adding a fire selector tab extension and extension for mag release tab. Personal thoughts. What do you guys think?

 

[Lonewarrior]

They can improve further by adding a fire selector tab extension and extension for mag release tab. Personal thoughts. What do you guys think?

They!?
There is no "they" here.

It's simply what CAA of Israel has in there product offerings, Evitar is offering here. Just like all the other Indian defence firms.

Indian firms have an old problem of not working on something ingenious; let alone undertaking proper R&D.
They can either do a JV, or simply buy the IPRs. Or in rare case, rip it off.

 

[Marliii]

They!?
There is no "they" here.

It's simply what CAA of Israel has in there product offerings, Evitar is offering here. Just like all the other Indian defence firms.

Indian firms have an old problem of not working on something ingenious; let alone undertaking proper R&D.
They can either do a JV, or simply buy the IPRs. Or in rare case, rip it off.

You did a nice sneaky attack on a defence firm there

 

[FalconSlayers]

 

[FalconSlayers]

In US Army, M4A1 + AN/PEQ-15 + Trijicon ACOG with Trijicon RMR offset reddot sight + Vertical Grip + White Flash Light is a standard issue, in Indian Army it’s just the rifle.

So anyways to counter this shortfall, IA can use the already existing Trinetra sights (another variant which runs on Tritium should be made and standardised) with Magnifiers.

And white light is something which we’ll have to buy anyways.

This Trinetra sight has visible/IR lasers along with a holographic aiming reticle.